Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

1.The evidence is that the Bible doesn't say they received glorified bodies.

2.  The Bible doesn't say they went to heaven.  The case of Eutycus is that he was taken home.  That is not heaven, no matter how pretty his wife was, if he was married.

3.  Acts 26:23 and 1 Cor 15:23 don't permit your view.  Jesus was the FIRST to be resurrected, which has to mean receive a glorified body.  Everyone before Him were only resuscitated, not glorified.  If they were, the Bible would have said so.

4.  1 Cor 15:23 says specfically that all believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes".  All references to the "coming" of Jesus refers to the Second Advent, because the OT prophesies of just two advents.  So that's what is being referred to when we read "the Lords' coming", etc.

You said:  "But, hey brother, I can walk away from it. No need to answer.

Be that as it may, I'm surprised that you could say that our Lord Jesus "was not part of the FIRST resurrection" Being part of the FIRST resurrection is the QUALIFICATION for reigning. How then does Christ reign! You see, the word "protos" can mean "first in time", which is what you stick to, denying the resurrection of all those who were raised before our Lord with an argument about their type of body. But "protos" also means "first in rank or importance"."

I never avoid answering questions.  And if I don't have an answer, I'll admit it.

I thought I was clear on the phrase you take issue with.  Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was first to be resurrected.  We know there were several examples in the OT and Jesus Himself raised people from the dead, including Lazarus and a widow's son, plus more. But the Bible does NOT say any of them were glorified.  They simply came back to life, in their physical and mortal body.  

The Jewish leaders were so jealous of Jesus, they planned to KILL Lazarus after his resurrection.  That should be enough to show that he wasn't in an immortal body.

You said, "If this is the meaning, then saying that Christ did not partake of it relegates Him to imposter-king.

But I must say that with a small change, you and I are not far apart.

Go well bro."

Let me be clear(er).  Jesus is the FIRST human being to be resurrected with a glorified body.  Then, "when He comes", all saved people (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected with glorified bodies.

It would be absurd to claim that Jesus was in the FIRST resurrection, which is the resurrection of all believers.  That wouldn't be possible.  He HAD to be resurrected FIRST.  That's all I meant.

My quest was to get you to show, by scriptures, that a resurrection is not a resurrection if the resurrected body is not said to be glorified. Above, you say you base it on what is NOT said. O.K. Your method is noted.

But what scripture DOES say is that even the unbeliever has glory in resurrection. Let us examine 1st Corinthains 15:35-49

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly

Verse 35 poses my question; "with what body do they come?" I've pondered Paul's calling the listener a "fool" and cannot quite fathom it. Maybe Paul had taught this before and the Corinthians had not listened. It is a serious thing to call a Christian a "fool". So I note the accusation as inspired but do not fully understand it. But what I want to point out is that until verse 49, Paul addresses RESURRECTION IN GENERAL - not OUR resurrection specifically. Only in verse 49 does Paul use "we" for the first time - a preamble to those who will inherit the Kingdom.

The text before verse 49 shows that ALL resurrected have glory. It is the degree of glory that is different, and it is the ORIGIN of glory that is different. That is, if you were born again and possessed eternal life you are "sown" in this condition and will be raised with "celestial glory". The Israelite, and the Nations (Gentiles) do not believe, and are "sown" (in death) as "earthly" and raised with "Terrestrial glory".

Then we learn that WITHIN the grouping, there are differing glories. Our Lord is no doubt the "Sun", while others of the heavenly calling and birth are the moon and stars. Each has it glory. The diligent Christians will have a differing glory to the slothful one. The glory is according to your condition when "sown" in death.

Now, the word "glory" literally means "made apparent". That is, when the glory of something is shown it is not some special shining. It is the manifestation of what the thing really is. You could say its rank and substance is "made apparent". And the reason that ALL men in resurrection will have some glory is because whether an unbeliever and deep sinner, or a saint like Paul, we humans ALL have corrupt bodies (Phil.3:21). Resurrection changes that for EVERY MAN. Death comes to every man because of sin (singular) because of Adam's nature (Rom.5:12-17, 6:23), and it is Christ's death as the Lamb of God that entitles Him judicially to raise every man from the dead (Jn.1:29).

So, I propose that those who have been resurrected, no matter when (before or after Jesus), have their glorified bodies. This does not preclude men going to the Lake of Fire. It is just that resurrection is the result of a work done by Christ and its process is to (i) defeat death, (ii) raise a man and make him whole again, (iii) defeat the corruption we inherited from Adam, and (iv) endue the man with either heavenly glory or earthly glory as per his condition at death.

In the case of the boy who was raised by Elijah, they were Gentiles. And the boy by Elisha was an Israelite. The indications of the state of Israel at the time are that idolatry had taken over and the chances of either of these boys having heard of Jesus, the future Messiah, were slim. So the first two resurrections recorded by the bible where exercised on UNBELIEVERS (a Gentile and an Isrealite). Irrespective of our difference of opinion, the fact is that according to 1st Corinthians above, BOTH HAD TERRESTRIAL GLORY. And both, having died, would fall under Luke 20:35-36 and Hebrews 9:27 - that is, "children of the resurrection".

[AdHoc]

30 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

In my first post, I showed that there is one resurrection of all believers, and no verses that describe Jesus taking any glorified believers to heaven.  Thus, showing from the Bible that there are not "multiple raptures".  Actually, not even one, if a trip to heaven is included.

All the rest of my posts have been replies to posters' comments, questions, etc.

I'm not trying to derail the thread; just respond to the comments of others.

No accusation is meant. I simply wanted you to know why I withheld comment.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Thanks for your comments, but I'm very comfortable with my view.  I used to understand "second death" to simply refer to the spiritual death (separation) condition of everyone in the LOF.  Though that is true, when I realized the Bible teaches that unbelievers will be resurrected, I began to  re-think my position.  

The resurrection of unbelievers isn't about an immortal glorified body, like that of the resurrection of the saved.  So what is their resurrection anyway?  Just that their soul will join back up with their body.  God is omnipotent, so not hard for Him at all.

Then you said:  "Also you will note that Gehenna is not physical death. It is undiluted suffering (lack of well-being) administered by God. Matthew 10:28"

When the unbeliever is "cast into the LOF" per Rev 20:15, in their resurrected body, how long will it take for the physical body to be totally consumed?  Pretty quick, I'm sure.  So yes, Gehanna isn't physical death.  It is spiritual separation from God.  But since unbelievers WILL BE resurrected, we must deal with that fact.

I have no doubt that the "second death" is a reference to the fact that the resurrected body will die again.  This view is not in conflict with any Scripture, though it probably is with many believers who haven't thought through this, or don't even have the facts on this.  

Read and noted without comment. Thanks for the answer.

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

However, if you take Matt 25 as meaning both do occur together, then you definitely have a problem with Rev 20, because it shows clearly that the martyrs are resurrected and reign with Christ for 1,000 year, which is the FIRST resurrection, and then at the end of the MK, the battle of Gog and Magog and then the GWT.

The reason that you do not have a text is that it is made up.  If you would allow yourself to read the text of Revelation 20 without predujus you might be able to see that the first resurrection is limited to the martyrs.  At the end of the thousand years, everyone else is raised.  This is the time that the books are opened and everyone is judged.  That is consistent with Matthew 25.

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

My quest was to get you to show, by scriptures, that a resurrection is not a resurrection if the resurrected body is not said to be glorified. Above, you say you base it on what is NOT said. O.K. Your method is noted.

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't say what you claim I believe.  All unbelievers will receive a resurrection and they won't be glorified, as believers will be.  I don't believe any of the citations of dead people coming back to life in the Bible were unbelievers, and there is no indication that they came back in glorified bodies.  That was my only point.

Jesus received the FIRST glorified body.  Acts 26:23.  Then, "when He comes" all the rest of the saved (those who belong to Him) will receive theirs.  I hope this clears things up for you.

You said:  "But what scripture DOES say is that even the unbeliever has glory in resurrection. Let us examine 1st Corinthains 15:35-49

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly"

Rather than quoting 15 verses, please prove your claim about there being glory in the resurrection of unbelievers in that text.  I don't read anything about unbelievers getting glorified resurrection bodies.

I read 1 Cor 15 as describing and instructing about the believer's resurrection.  Why would Paul or any believer care about the resurrection of unbelievers, other than the fact that they will be resurrected, only to die again when cast into the LOF?

You said:  "Verse 35 poses my question; "with what body do they come?" I've pondered Paul's calling the listener a "fool" and cannot quite fathom it. Maybe Paul had taught this before and the Corinthians had not listened. It is a serious thing to call a Christian a "fool". So I note the accusation as inspired but do not fully understand it. But what I want to point out is that until verse 49, Paul addresses RESURRECTION IN GENERAL - not OUR resurrection specifically. Only in verse 49 does Paul use "we" for the first time - a preamble to those who will inherit the Kingdom."

Why don't you think that believers can be fools?  Anyone can be one.  Paul's use of "fool" doesn't prove your claim.  There are 4 times in Paul's epistles where Paul said, "I would not have you IGNORANT, brothers".  iow, Paul didn't want them STUPID.  He wanted believers to know the FACTS.  A fool is someone who isn't interested in facts.

You said:  "The text before verse 49 shows that ALL resurrected have glory. It is the degree of glory that is different, and it is the ORIGIN of glory that is different. That is, if you were born again and possessed eternal life you are "sown" in this condition and will be raised with "celestial glory". The Israelite, and the Nations (Gentiles) do not believe, and are "sown" (in death) as "earthly" and raised with "Terrestrial glory"."

Well, you're not clear again.  Here are 2 verses immediately before v.49:  47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

I don't see anything that supports your idea.  And I don't see anything about "terrestrial glory".  Paul was clearly distinguishing between "earthy" (not terristrial glory) and heavenly, which IS glory.

You said:  "Then we learn that WITHIN the grouping, there are differing glories. Our Lord is no doubt the "Sun", while others of the heavenly calling and birth are the moon and stars. Each has it glory. The diligent Christians will have a differing glory to the slothful one. The glory is according to your condition when "sown" in death."

You are inserting the idea of "glory" where Paul didn't mention any such "glory".

You said:  "Now, the word "glory" literally means "made apparent". That is, when the glory of something is shown it is not some special shining. It is the manifestation of what the thing really is. You could say its rank and substance is "made apparent". And the reason that ALL men in resurrection will have some glory is because whether an unbeliever and deep sinner, or a saint like Paul, we humans ALL have corrupt bodies (Phil.3:21). Resurrection changes that for EVERY MAN."

I absolutely disagree with this.  Only believers will receive a glorified body.  You are not making your point about unbelievers, and Paul never said anything to suggest that unbelievers will have a "glorified body" in their resurrection.

You said:  "Death comes to every man because of sin (singular) because of Adam's nature (Rom.5:12-17, 6:23), and it is Christ's death as the Lamb of God that entitles Him judicially to raise every man from the dead (Jn.1:29)."

This doesn't support your thesis.

You said:  "So, I propose that those who have been resurrected, no matter when (before or after Jesus), have their glorified bodies. This does not preclude men going to the Lake of Fire. It is just that resurrection is the result of a work done by Christ and its process is to (i) defeat death, (ii) raise a man and make him whole again, (iii) defeat the corruption we inherited from Adam, and (iv) endue the man with either heavenly glory or earthly glory as per his condition at death."

With free speech, you are free to propose whatever you want.  But you need evidence to support your proposals, and you haven't shown any.

Finally, you said:  "In the case of the boy who was raised by Elijah, they were Gentiles. And the boy by Elisha was an Israelite. The indications of the state of Israel at the time are that idolatry had taken over and the chances of either of these boys having heard of Jesus, the future Messiah, were slim. So the first two resurrections recorded by the bible where exercised on UNBELIEVERS (a Gentile and an Isrealite). Irrespective of our difference of opinion, the fact is that according to 1st Corinthians above, BOTH HAD TERRESTRIAL GLORY. And both, having died,  would fall under Luke 20:35-36 and Hebrews 9:27 - that is, "children of the resurrection"."

So, apparently, you dismiss any idea that Elijah either failed to evangelize the boy or that the boy rejected the gospel.  Well, I disagree with that as well.  Elijah was such a prophet that God took him from earth apart from death.  Think about that.  Pretty neat, I think.

I have no doubt that the boy heard the gospel and was saved.  But whatever, the Bible sure doesn't indicate that ANYONE before the resurrection of Jesus received a glorified body.

Don't you realize that IF IF IF anyone did, then 1 Cor 15:23 would be rendered false?

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Read and noted without comment. Thanks for the answer.

OK, two posts without answers.  Did you run out of answers?

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The reason that you do not have a text is that it is made up.  If you would allow yourself to read the text of Revelation 20 without predujus you might be able to see that the first resurrection is limited to the martyrs.  At the end of the thousand years, everyone else is raised.  This is the time that the books are opened and everyone is judged.  That is consistent with Matthew 25.

Well, thank you for the challenge.  Or maybe insult, in that you say that I have "made up a text".  

Rev 20:4-6  and I will color code it for extremely easy understanding.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. 

Blue words are the martyrs who will be in the FIRST resurrection, which is "when He comes" at the Second Advent.  1 Cor 15:23 says clearly that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes".  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Purple words refer to the resurrection and reigning with Christ during the MK..

Red words refer to all unbelievers.  Read v.5 very carefully.  The resurrection of unbelievers is for the GWT judgment, which IMMEDIATELY follows the battle of Gog and Magog.  They will show up with their mortal body, resurrected, only to die AGAIN, when cast into the LOF, which is also called the SECOND death.

So please don't accuse me of what I never did.

 

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Jesus received the FIRST glorified body.  Acts 26:23.  Then, "when He comes" all the rest of the saved (those who belong to Him) will receive theirs.  I hope this clears things up for you.

You have maintained this from the beginning, yet you won't post a single verse that says it. Here is Acts 26:23. Please show me which part talks of glorified bodies:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But what I want to point out is that until verse 49, Paul addresses RESURRECTION IN GENERAL - not OUR resurrection specifically. Only in verse 49 does Paul use "we" for the first time - a preamble to those who will inherit the Kingdom.

This was my point. You ignore this argument completely. The GRAMMAR shows the author dealing with THE RESURRECTION - NOT WITH THAT OF THE BELIEVER! Your statement that Chapetr 15 deals with the resurrection only of the believer is false. It deals with "ALL IN ADAM ... ".

You have created a concept of imagined things, given no scriptures for them and ducked my questions. Now, we will discuss further when you post scriptures that say plainly that there is no body of glory for the resurrected until Jesus Comes. In the process you can explain how Moses got into the Kingdom (Matthew 17), without a body that HAD TO CONFORM with 1st Corinthians 15:50. You can also explain, with scripture, why a body that is raised by the might and power of Jesus, has no glory, when 1st Corinthians 15:35 says; "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

In plain language it discusses THE DEAD, NOT THE CHRISTIAN. But this you deny. What is the purpose of debate when you deny the simplest grammar? Until verse 49 the context is THE DEAD. Or do you also deny that the unbeliever dies too.
 

[FreeGrace]

40 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You have maintained this from the beginning, yet you won't post a single verse that says it. Here is Acts 26:23. Please show me which part talks of glorified bodies:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
 

I wonder if you are serious.  Do you think Acts 26:23 simply states that Jesus came back from the dead without a glorified body?  Why would anyone think such a thought?

We know from the Bible that He was able to appear in rooms without having to enter through doors that were locked.  If you don't think Acts 26:23 proves that Jesus was the first to receive a glorified body, I guess there is no reason for further discussion.

Your view begs the question;  if Jesus didn't receive a glorified body at His resurrection, then when did He?  Do you have any verses that say when?

[FreeGrace]

54 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But what I want to point out is that until verse 49, Paul addresses RESURRECTION IN GENERAL - not OUR resurrection specifically. Only in verse 49 does Paul use "we" for the first time - a preamble to those who will inherit the Kingdom.

This was my point. You ignore this argument completely. The GRAMMAR shows the author dealing with THE RESURRECTION - NOT WITH THAT OF THE BELIEVER! Your statement that Chapetr 15 deals with the resurrection only of the believer is false. It deals with "ALL IN ADAM ... ".

 

 

In plain language it discusses THE DEAD, NOT THE CHRISTIAN. But this you deny. What is the purpose of debate when you deny the simplest grammar? Until verse 49 the context is THE DEAD. Or do you also deny that the unbeliever dies too.
 

I believe you are just assuming that Paul was speaking of resurrection "in general".  Why would he?  He was writing to believers.  And since there is NO EVIDENCE that unbelievers will receive a glorified (in any sense) body, you are assuming or even presuming what the Bible doesn't say.

You said:  "You have created a concept of imagined things, given no scriptures for them and ducked my questions. Now, we will discuss further when you post scriptures that say plainly that there is no body of glory for the resurrected until Jesus Comes. In the process you can explain how Moses got into the Kingdom (Matthew 17), without a body that HAD TO CONFORM with 1st Corinthians 15:50. You can also explain, with scripture, why a body that is raised by the might and power of Jesus, has no glory, when 1st Corinthians 15:35 says; "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?""

I DID give you a verse, but you discarded it.  That's not on me, but rather, you.

As to your second sentence that you want to "discuss further" hasn't even been in the discussion.  I never suggested/said that "there is no body of glory for the resurrected until Jesus comes".  In FACT, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us plainly that Jesus is the FIRST to be resurrected, as the FIRSTFRUITS indicates.  Then, ALL believers will be resurrected at the event called the "Second Advent", which is "when He comes".

I have no idea why you mention Moses.  Please explain how Matt 17 is relevant to this discussion.  I believe 1 Cor 15:23; that all believers from Adam forward will receive resurrection bodies at the Second Advent.  If you disagree, you need to provide clear verses that say otherwise.

And I don't understand your last request for explanation.  Of course bodies that are "raised by the might and power of Jesus, HAS glory".  So your statement is wrong, again.  

Then you finally said:  "In plain language it discusses THE DEAD, NOT THE CHRISTIAN. But this you deny. What is the purpose of debate when you deny the simplest grammar? Until verse 49 the context is THE DEAD. Or do you also deny that the unbeliever dies too."

I guess you didn't consider that "THE DEAD" refers to Christians who have died and their bodies are in graves, until the resurrection.  So I haven't denied anything.  Your last question is absurd and doesn't deserve a reply.

I've discussed the resurrection of unbelievers, so there was no need to even ask such a question.

I must assume that you are either reading too fast to comprehend what I post, or just don't follow.  

Your posts do not accurately reflect what I've posted.

Edited November 14, 2022 by FreeGrace
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