The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your last paragraph, we can't let our preconceptions or misconceptions blind us to what is apparent.  If the moon does not "give her light" this does not necessarily mean that it is invisible.  If the moon is blood red, it is not giving "her light".  If the prophecy was that the moon was going to be grass green or lemon yellow, at the fulfillment of the prophecy it would not be giving its light.  If an employee is not doing his job, this does not necessarily mean that he is doing nothing.  Typically, it means that he is not doing what is expected of him.

...

This is why we are usually in disagreement. We disagree even on very basic things like light.

Question: HOW would anyone know of the moon appeared red in color? First, the only way we can see the moon is when sunlight is reflected off the moon and back to our eyes.  When the earth gets in the way, the light going through earth's atmosphere bends the light waves so they an still bounce off the moon. The moon is really in earth's shadow, but because light waves can bend, it lights up the shadow, but makes it appear red. 

Since we can still SEE the light, the moon is most definitely giving her light. In ANY case, a total eclipse of the moon is FAR FAR FAR different that total darkness, which is the sign for Jesus' coming to Armageddon. The heavenly planets are "deprived of light." I thin God just turns out the lights. Therefore I must disagree with you.

I think I must include this I just stumbled upon, by Precept Austin:

"What tribulation? Well, if English words mean anything and context is king in interpretation, Jesus is clearly referring to the "great tribulation" He has just described in Mt 24:21. A simple reading of His words could not be plainer. To try to make any other sense out of His words is nonsense! The problem with many of the commentaries is that they have a certain theological persuasion which in essence causes them to eschew (deliberately avoid) and/or ignore a plain reading of the text because to do so would disturb their particular systematic theological and eschatological interpretation. 

The tribulation - The definitive article ("the") is present in the Greek text and serves to mark this as a reference not to tribulation, distress or affliction in general but to the specific tribulation. In context Jesus has just described the coming unprecedented time of the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21-note) which is "set in motion" when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place (Mt 24:15-note)."
 

Thomas Ice on immediately - Moulton and Milligan, in examples from the Greek papyri, emphasize that the use of this word means "at once." Since "an adverb usually modifies the verb closest to it," immediately relates directly to the verb "to darken." Thus, the events of Matthew 24:29 will follow the tribulation immediately, at once, without any other events intervening, or without a time delay. This would mean within the expanded chronology of the events of the tribulation found in Revelation 4-19, that Matthew 24:29-31 will follow immediately the final bowl judgment found in Revelation 16:17-21. 

 

I thought this one about the stars was interesting:

Hendriksen comments that "The picture is very vivid. While the earth is drenched with the blood of the saints in the most terrible tribulation of all time, all at once the sun becomes darkened. Naturally the moon now also ceases to give her light. The stars deviate from their orbits and race to their doom; they "fall from heaven." The powers of the heaven are shaken. 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

In my opening sentence, I spoke of "what is apparent."  What is apparent is that what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark's parallel account of this in 13:24-27 and Luke's parallel account of this in 21:25-27 is all fulfilled when the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:12-7:17).  Luke's account, while not including about the gathering, shows the reaction of those left, or not gathered (Lk. 21:26).  His account reads like a paraphrase of what John records concerning the actual event of the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17).  On the other hand, Matthew's account records concerning the mourning of "all the tribes" (24:30), and both Matthew and Mark record concerning the gathering of Christ's "elect" (Matt. 24:31;  Mk. 13:27).  Then, unsurprisingly, John records concerning 144,000 of "all the tribes" that will be "sealed" at this time (Rev. 7:4), as well as the "great multitude, which no man could number" that will be gathered at this time (Rev. 7:9-10).

...

I would say the bolded words above are only your imagination and VERY few others (I have never met or heard one) believe, when Jesus said, "after the tribulation of those days" that He really meant the typical and daily, "normal" tribulation saints suffer during the church age. Since I believe this is a tangent from the truth, I must disagree.

I do agree that just after the rapture and then the opening of the 6th seal, God must then see that the 144,000 are sealed and that the church is seen safely in heaven. Then and only then, will God allow the HURT to begin on earth, with the first trumpet judgment.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

On my part, it has to do with how we arrive at our bottom line.  As I sometimes say, I am in agreement with the bottom line of the common pre-trib rapture view.  I just cannot accept the way that scholars espousing it handle Scripture in their efforts to defend it.  Same with the way I feel you sometimes handle Scripture in your efforts to defend your position.  There are paths that are being taken that are treacherous, unnecessary, and end up wanting.

My experience is that the path of truth becomes more clear the better one's eyes are trained on it and not distracted by the wicked one.  Moreover, my experience is that there will always be an understanding that will align with all that is found in Scripture.  We must endeavor to always come to that understanding.

And my brother, I do know that you feel that sometimes I do the same thing that I say bothers me about what others do.  In all fairness, I live with this realization and freely acknowledge the corrupt condition of my own flesh and my own need to always "gird up the loins of [my] mind" (I Pet. 1:13), and bring "into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (II Cor. 10:5).  That being said, I am merely putting forth for everyone's consideration what I have found in my own study of Scripture, clarifying it, and seeking to discover how it will continue to hold up under careful Bible scrutiny.  God is my witness that when I find something that won't hold up, I'm done with it, even if it is something that I have thought to be true.  The world is already full of too much that won't hold up for me to be adding to it.  So, feel free to come hard, but with Scripture.

Oh, and try to stay close to the topic of the threads, whether mine, or others.  I don't presently have the time I would like to get absorbed in other threads.  But, when and if I do, I will most certainly stay on topic.

My friend and brother in Christ, 

I think we have had a very civil discussion of God's written word. I appreciate it much. So what if we end up disagreeing. 

Perhaps on your next post you can bring us back on topic.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last paragraph, for clarification, the "two chapters" of our discussion are Revelation 4-5.  I can't help wondering why you did not give more regard to the "first words" spoken to John concerning these two chapters?  The opening verse of chapter four reads thus...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in Heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER.

Does not the word "hereafter" show "TIMING"?  Then John sees the "throne" and God and the "four and twenty elders" and the "four beasts".  Then he sees the "book" God is holding, "a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."  Then a search is made for one "worthy to open and to read the book".  Then we see the Lamb who "came and took the book" and the resulting worship and praise of all the hosts of Heaven over the Lamb's worthiness.

Why are you not accepting "the movement of time" in this ceremony and the climax of it?  This is arguably the greatest ceremony that we have an account of in the Bible.  A ceremony that took place in Heaven that John got an invite to!  Two chapters of the Bible are given to the account of it.  It's not just a vision of something John saw.  It is a ceremony for the purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" that Almighty God was holding in His right hand.  Bigger than the Grammy's.  Bigger that the Academy Awards.  Bigger than all the ceremonies that have ever took place on this earth all put together!  Let it also be said that with every ceremony that has ever took place and will ever take place, there is "the movement of time"---to the climax.

...

First, allow me to remind you that John did NOT write, "ONLY things hereafter..."

It was a statement of fact. DID God show John things hereafter? Certainly He did. But because there is no "only," God is free to show history in His vision.

With the first read, I would guess most people, when they begin to read chapter 4, picture the throne room of when John was called up, probably around 95 AD. But by the time they get to chapter five and read of Jesus' ascension and the Holy Spirit sent down, they should realize something seems amiss. Maybe this isn't the throne room of 95 AD.

I must admit, I was very slow. Such thoughts never entered my mind, even after perhaps a hundred readings. It never dawned on me that since this is the revealing our the Lord Jesus Christ, and since a dozen verses tell us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father, and since Stephen SAW Him there, John should have seen HIM in the throne room. This went right over my head.

I read about "no man was found worthy" I am sure around a hundred times, but I never understood what God meant, or its significance concerning time.

The truth is, John saw a VISION of the throne room. If He had seen the REAL throne room of 95 AD, Jesus would have been seen at the right hand of the Father. The Holy Spirit would have been sent down, because Jesus would have already ascended years before.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

Iamlamad, in the course of my discussions with you and hearing you talk about what God spoke to you, what I am seeing more than anything is your failure to regard the simplicity of what you have said He said and your applying of your own logic to what you have said He said.  My encouragement to you would be to talk with the good Lord some more---Bible in hand.

...

Let's be honest...shall we? The only reason you could write this is because of how you PERCEIVE what I have said. It does not agree with what you believe the scriptures say.  I could write the same words concerning your theories.  I perceive some of your theories as wrong, because it is not the way I understand scripture. 

In short, you think I am wrong, because of course, you are right. 
However,  I think you are wrong, because I think I am right.

We will know the truth when we get to heaven! 

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

Concerning your last sentence, Jesus has been at the right hand of the Father ever since He ascended to Heaven!  This is His place positionally related to the Godhead.  He is actually seen there when Stephen is stoned (Acts 7:55-60).  But, this was no less so when He appeared to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-7).  This was no less so when the "Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul:  for as thou hast testified of Me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome" (Acts 23:11).  This was no less so when John "was in the isle that is called Patmos" and "heard" and "saw" Him (Rev. 1:10-20), though nothing is here mentioned of His being at the right hand of the Father.  Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, AS HE WILL ALWAYS AND FOREVER BE, whether in the throne room of Heaven and actually seen there or not, whether descending "from heaven with a shout" when we will "meet [Him] in the air" (I Thess. 4:16-17), or on "a white horse" returning with us for the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-14ff)!  I've got goose pimples again!

 

You are mistaken. There was 32 years or so of time when Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father—the 32 years that He was on the earth. 

Mark 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Where was He just before this? He was on earth. Where was He after He ascended? He was THEN at the right hand of God.

So...

Jesus was NOT SEEN in the throne room, showing us a TIME while He was on the earth.

The Holy Spirit was there showing us that it was a TIME before Christ ascended.

"NO man was found worthy" showing us it was before Christ rose from the dead."

Then TIME PASSED. Jesus rose from the dead and was then found worthy to take the book.

Then John saw Jesus as He ascended and saw that He sent the Holy Spirit down.
Then Jesus got the book from the Father and began opening the seals. This sets the context of the first seal as very shortly after Christ ascended.

How can we get this thread steered back in the right direction?

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, I'm wondering if your Bible reads like mine.  In my Bible, verse 14 reads like this:

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

This means that the 3-1/2 year period just expounded in verses 3-13 "is past".  Now what?  As it reads, "behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

..

No it doesn't! It only means the 200 million horsemen have finished killing 1/3 of the population. It means nothing more than that. And that 6th trumpet was only 1/6th of the first half of the week. 

[not an echo]

On 1/15/2023 at 11:35 AM, iamlamad said:

On 1/14/2023 at 10:05 PM, not an echo said:

I thought it was your conclusion, based upon your logic, that He "marked" the entire week "with the same marker."  That was what you said, wasn't it?  Where was it that you said that?  Here it is, and note what I have emphasized...

One day as I was reading Daniel 9, verse 27, when my eyes and my mind got to the word “midst” sudden God spoke to me in what seemed like an audible voice:

“You could find that exact midpoint ‘clearly marked’ in the book of Revelation.”

I was suddenly "in the Spirit," and could not speak, but my spirit man immediately spoke and ask “How would I find that?”

He answered,

“Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.”

Then, almost as an afterthought, he concluded:

“In fact, you could find the entire 70th week ‘clearly marked.’”

I heard His voice and I heard His words. When He said this, I suddenly understood that the reason I could find the entire 70th week would be that God would use the SAME MARKER. That came as a download, not in words.

I believe I have this several times.

Again, it is not my desire to call into question what you say the Lord spoke to you.  But, I continue to wonder concerning your take on what you say He said.

Interestingly, what I am seeing is that the things you say He said will fit my position.  Of the first sentence that you attribute to Him, I certainly believe this is so, as a matter of simple deduction.  The first half, expounded in Revelation 11:3-13 "is past" according to verse 14, which would mean that the "exact midpoint" has arrived.  We already agree concerning the second half beginning with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Of the second thing you say that He said (the middle two sentences), there is nothing said relating to the first 3-1/2 years in the first sentence.  Don't take this as a negative.  What I'm getting at is that the statement is open concerning the first 3-1/2 years, with no indicators given concerning it.  The only indicator given in the first sentence concerns the second 3-1/2 years, of which you said He said, "I always included the 3 1/2 years of time" (underline mine).  I see nothing here that prohibits a mentioning of the first 3-1/2 years.

Concerning the second sentence of the two, the very first mention of 3-1/2 years that we find in the whole of the New Testament is indeed "very close to the exact midpoint,"  according to Luke 21:20-24 and my position.  Note that nothing about what you say He says makes verses 3-13 necessarily have to be about the "the exact midpoint,"  but what we find in verses 3-13 indeed brings us "very close" to it!  In fact, verse 14 indicates that the first 3-1/2 years "is past" and "the third woe" (beginning of the next 3-1/2 years) "cometh quickly" (like the next day!).  That is certainly "very close." 

Of the last thing you say He said, it seems to me that I may be more accepting of this than you are.  I don't believe I have ever heard you indicate where the first half of Daniel's 70th Week is "‘clearly marked.’"  But, isn't the first half as much a part of "the entire 70th week" as the last half?  Of course it is.  Unless I have missed you on this, your focus has been on how you see the last half "‘clearly marked.’"  Where is it that you are seeing the first half "‘clearly marked.’"?

Similar to what I have said before, whether the Lord actually spoke these words to you I would not call into question (unless they were in apparent conflict with the written Word).  In accord with what you say He said, I certainly agree that the entire 70th Week is clearly marked.

Edited December 12, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 1/15/2023 at 12:06 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/14/2023 at 10:05 PM, not an echo said:

 

Look again at the various things I say in my thread, A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249265-a-title-suggestion-for-the-seven-sealed-book/).  My title suggestion for this book is THE DAY OF THE LORD.  My reason for this suggestion is the help it affords for one's understanding.

A basis for this title is that the day this book is unsealed, the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will have begun.  We know that the beginning of this is shown first after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:17).  Moreover, my position is that the 7th Seal will be opened a little bit after this---on the same day.  A reason I take this position is that there is no evidence that the sealing of the 144,000 will take much longer than the gathering of the Church, which will happen "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:52).  Whatever time is involved in this sealing, the four angels that are poised and ready to do what they are going to do are instructed by another angel thus: "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" (Rev. 7:3).

After John's seeing the sealing of the 144,000 (Rev. 7:1-8) and the "great multitude" that has just been gathered (Rev. 7:9-17, Matt. 24:31), the final or 7th Seal is opened.  At this time we see other angels' involvement in what is fixing to take place (Rev. 8:2-6) and evidences connecting with the four angels of Revelation 7:1 being at this time signaled to do what they had already been poised and ready to do (Rev. 8:7-12).

Now again, my position is that this supports that the 6th and 7th seals will be opened the same day, allowing for the book to then unfold---lending to why I say that THE DAY OF THE LORD would be a fitting title for the book.  What all does it include?  Everything that pertains to the period of the last days' DOTL judgment---which takes us to the last verse in Revelation 20, right before what I like to refer to as that Happily Ever After part beginning in Revelation 21.  Of course---connecting with your reply---this would mean that it also includes Christ's Millennial Reign, which John sees to take place before the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:1-6).

How do I arrive at these conclusions?  Very simple.  First of all, we already agree that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet marks the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week.  Based upon what is said after the sounding of this trumpet (and other evidences), we can rightly gather that this trumpet heralds a period of time that includes the following: "And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18).  We know that this concerns the Last Judgment.  Don't forget what I have said about connecting the prophetic puzzle pieces.  The Last Judgment takes place in Revelation 20:11-15.  Verse 11 reads, "And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven FLED AWAY;  and there was found no place for them."  All you have to do now is read the opening verse of chapter 21 along with II Peter 3:10-13 and you should know why I submit that the book with seven seals could rightly be titled THE DAY OF THE LORD and why it includes an account of everything we find from the time it is opened through the Last Judgment.  Said another way, the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will bring closure to this present world.  And again---very fittingly---after this begins that Happily Ever After part for God and all of His saved (Rev. 21:1-5ff).

This understanding adds a whole other level of meaning to that "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" that John saw "in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne" (Rev. 5:1).  Can you imagine the awesomeness of the ceremony that John was given the invite to attend where the charge of this book was given to "the Lamb" (Rev. 4-5)!  With what I have just shared fresh on your mind, I would encourage you to take some time and study Revelation 4-5 afresh.

...

For years I have wondered but have written that the Day of the Lord will begin at the verse of mention: 6:17.

The biggest question in my mind is this: does the earthquake at the 6th seal come with God's wrath? Perhaps God is angry at the time of the earthquake, so shows the cosmic signs and then begins the Day of the Lord, OR the Day actually begins with the earthquake. Where you do see the DAY beginning?

As of now, I still prefer to think of the book as containing the 70th week. But it is only a guess.

I think you and I are not far off in many areas.

Relating to your first two paragraphs and the last question of your second one, very simple---The day that the 6th Seal is opened.  There are many things that will happen that day, but we all understand that it is not possible to give an account of everything that can be said about such a day all at once (like in the same breath), or even in the same sentence.  We know that it is impossible for one letter or one word to hold such information.  So, we combine letters and words into sentences and paragraphs to make accounts.  What we have with the opening of the 6th Seal is an account of what will happen the day that the last days' DOTL judgment will begin.  No need to make it more difficult than it is.

Of course, other Scripture certainly comes into play.  Like what I continue to express about assembling the pieces of the prophetic puzzle.  For example, because of what Paul says in I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3, we can rightly gather that the gathering of the Church will happen before the bottom falls out of things that day, if you know what I mean.

Don't forget what a day can hold.  Think about December 7, 1941 or September 11, 2001.  My, what a day can hold.

Edited January 19, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 1/15/2023 at 12:11 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/14/2023 at 6:32 PM, not an echo said:

Well, stay with me.  As I have stated many places in many of my threads, I see Daniel's 70th Week beginning once the world's stage is prepped for it.  This preparation will begin the day the 6th Seal is opened and the Church is gathered.  As the NT Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks, it should not surprise us that it will not be a part of the fulfilling of the final, or 70th Week.

I agree! I see chapter 7 of Revelation as God preparing to begin the 70th week. He is simply not going to allow any trumpet judgment to bring "HURT" to the earth UNTIL the 144,000 are sealed and the church is safely in heaven.

I could not agree more with the 70th weeks of Daniel. All 70 of them were and will be for Daniel's people, the Hebrews. Why people insist that the church must go through the Week mystifies me. They certainly do not see the scriptures as I see them.

I agree---as long as you don't see Daniel's 70th Week actually beginning the next day.  In other words, if the Church is gathered today (Jan. 19, 2023), the 70th Week will not begin tomorrow (Jan. 20, 2023), but the world's stage will certainly begin to be prepped for it!  And, I could certainly see everything ready for it to begin after "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10).  Like mid-year (approx. Jun. 19, 2023).  This is an understanding that will fit with what we find in Scripture.

Now, don't you dare put me in the category of a date setter!