The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[not an echo]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:49 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/13/2023 at 10:15 PM, not an echo said:

...

I don't know what you are really disagreeing with me on here.  My statement, "at this time" has to do with the time of "the opening of the 6th Seal."  My position is that with the opening of the 6th Seal, in conjunction with everything else that is described, Christ will make His "sign" appearance and the Church will be gathered---completely unscathed---whereupon the "DAY" will begin.  Said another way, with one tick of the clock after the Church is gathered, the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will have begun.  Moreover, I see the 7th Seal being opened just a little bit after this---on the same day.

Do you think it is possible that your concepts are mistaken?  Why are you stuck on an eclipse or eclipses being responsible for what John is seeing?

You had written:

"By Paul's words, we know that the Church will be gathered, or "caught up" by the angels at this time, concurrent with the "great sound of a trumpet" and the gathering that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31.  These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal "

Where is Jesus on John's timeline, at verse 31? He is "after the tribulation of those days..." He is after the 7th bowl that ends the Week - so after chapter 16.

Hello iamlamad,

If I'm understanding you correctly, you have what Jesus says concerning "after the tribulation of those days..." (Matt. 24:29) as being equal to "after the 7th bowl,"  which would be after all the other vials of God's wrath as well.  Is this your position?  If so, there are suddenly many questions going off in my head concerning your position.  For now, for here, I guess my first question has to do with what your position is concerning the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31) that Jesus says will be sounded at this time.

I would like to encourage you to consider the opening post of my thread titled, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).  We can discuss more about the above there if you would like.

(NOTE:  When I thought of my above thread, I went over there just to see if you had ever posted anything there.  I'm glad I did, for I immediately noticed that the illustrations that I used there were not working right.  So, I had to spend some time there getting all of that straightened out.  I guess George has recently had some programing changes made, because this is something I have noticed of late.  It looks like I'm going to have to spend some time going back through all my threads to make for sure of my illustrations.)     

On 1/15/2023 at 3:49 PM, iamlamad said:

Jesus is descending to Armageddon in Matthew 24 as He sends out angels to gather.  Where is His descent to Armageddon in Revelation?  It is in Rev. 19. 

Where is the 6th seal? It is in chapter 6. Yet, you believe that Revelation is chronological at least up to chapter 11. I think it is chronological all the way through, but with parentheses. My point is, how can you imagine a point in time in Revelation 19 can match a point in time in chapter 6?

Concerning your last question, I don't---in any kind of way whatsoever!  If you consider the opening post of my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/), you will find that I---as you---also believe that The Revelation is in chronological order.  The first 10 chapters are so chronological that it is not even in the realm of possibility for them to be more chronological.  Then, chapters 11-20 continue chronologically, but with overlapping information, as I show in that thread and this thread as well.

While here, I'm excited to make a comment that relates more specifically to what I wanted the focus of this thread to be.  That second set of 10 chapters---every one of them---pertain to the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week (chps. 11-19) and what the ultimate purpose of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy was in the first place (chp. 20).  Kinda like the Touch of Divinity!     

On 1/15/2023 at 3:49 PM, iamlamad said:

All the events of chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 must happen AFTER the 6th seal and BEFORE chapter 19. Put another way, seven long and very difficult years must pass after the 6th seal is opened to the point of Jesus' descent to Armageddon.

I am so close to being in agreement with you here that I almost want to just say "I agree."   I just want to make sure that with chapter seven, you see this as connecting hard with the 6th Seal and something that John sees before the 7th Seal is opened.  It seems that I remember a take on this that you had that causes flags to come up in my mind, but I can't say for sure.

Recall that I also see the 7th Seal being opened not long after the 6th Seal is opened, like, ON THE SAME DAY.

Concerning your last sentence, I would just add "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10) to the "seven long and very difficult years" to the time of "Jesus' descent to Armageddon."    

On 1/15/2023 at 3:49 PM, iamlamad said:

In Matthew 24, all the verses between verse 15 and 30 must take place before Armageddon.

I would clarify that verses 27-28 are of Christ's Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon proper (cp. esp. vs. 28 & Rev. 19:17-21).  Then, beginning with verse 29, Jesus turns His attention to the event of His "sign" appearance, which remains the focus of His attention thru verse 51.  Of course, this "must take place before Armageddon"---like well before.  Again, I hope you will look in on my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

On 1/15/2023 at 3:49 PM, iamlamad said:

Quote

one tick of the clock after the Church is gathered, the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will have begun.

I WANT to say that. I have said it  a few times. But I am troubled by it.  Joel said the signs in the sun and moon must be seen "before" the Day can begin. The 6th seal events are:

Earthquake
Signs in the sun and moon
Then the start of the Day. 

It would seem then that John wrote it exactly: the SIGN coming before the start.

Where in this mix do you see the rapture? After the signs but before the Day? After the earthquake but before the Signs in the sun and moon? Or perhaps before the 6th seal is opened. That is where I place it. IF the rapture is just before the 6th seal, then their must be perhaps two weeks or more before the Start of the Day. Like I said before, I am puzzled.

My position is that the gathering will happen just after the 6th Seal is opened.  There is coming a day (a literal day like Monday) when the Lamb is going to open the 6th Seal.  Based on all the evidences we find in Scripture, my position would be that the first order of business will be the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  Everything else that is spoken of will attend this event.

According to my concept of what Scripture will support, whereas the "sign" appearance that Christ will make at this time will be on the order of a glimpse, everything else will be like lingering ripple effects of the event---what those who are left will see and experience after the event of the gathering.

It is because Jesus will come as a "thief" and the DOTL will come as "a thief in the night" that I see Jesus making off with the valuables first.   Perhaps some of the things Jesus mentioned first and John wrote of first will indeed be seen in a fraction of time before the actual appearance and gathering.  Kinda like some thieves are actually seen before the valuables are taken---but everything happens so quickly.  Like the door is busted open or the glass is heard to break and there is bewilderment about the strange noise before the thief is actually gone with the goods.  I wouldn't want to get in a big argument about it.  Bottom line---He is coming for the gathering both suddenly and unexpectedly!  And, everything that Jesus spoke of and John wrote of will happen right there at about the same time.

As I was typing---just kinda contemplating what the day will be like---my mind goes to what happened on 9/11/01.  Relatively speaking, very few in America saw the first tower hit.  But, almost everyone in America saw the second tower hit.  What was the difference?  Americans were tuned in when the second tower was hit.  I submit that when Jesus comes for the gathering of the Church, it will catch the world completely off guard---like when the first tower was hit.  By comparison, however, as Noah's worldwide flood was to a local downpour, so will the event of the opening of the 6th Seal be to 9/11/01.

On 1/15/2023 at 3:49 PM, iamlamad said:

Quote

Why are you stuck on an eclipse or eclipses being responsible for what John is seeing?

I am only going by john's descriptions. We both know what John wrote is a good description of total eclipes. In short, "it looks like a duck...."

God USES the sun and moon for signs. Since John's description SOUNDS like total eclipses, why not just believe they ARE eclipses.

Have you considered that at the time of an eclipse, only a small portion of the earth can view this as any given time.  I submit that at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal, wherever the sun may be seen by anyone at this time, it will appear "as black as sackcloth of hair" and wherever the moon may be seen by anyone at this time, it will appear "as blood" (Rev. 6:12).

Edited December 12, 2023 by not an echo

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

If I'm understanding you correctly, you have what Jesus says concerning "after the tribulation of those days..." (Matt. 24:29) as being equal to "after the 7th bowl",  which would be after all the other vials of God's wrath as well.  Is this your position?  If so, there are suddenly many questions going off in my head concerning your position.  For now, for here, I guess my first question has to do with what your position is concerning the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31) that Jesus says will be sounded at this time.

I see "after the tribulation of those days" as meaning after the days of "great tribulation" Jesus has just been talking about. It would, therefore, also be after the 70th week.

Trumpets have sounded, even in Israel, countless times over the ages. We we read of an end-time trumpet, we must consider the TIME it is sounded.

Paul tells of a trumpet at the rapture, which will be before the 6th seal is opened.
Jesus spoke of a trumpet that will sound over seven years later. These two are not the same trumpet sound. They cannot be because of the time difference.

Then there will be seven trumpets of judgment sounded by angels BETWEEN the first ■ two trumpets I mentioned. So we have:
■ The pre-trib rapture trumpet
■ Seven judgment trumpets sounded by seven angels
■ The Mat. 24 trumpet that will sound as Jesus is descending to Armageddon.

The "tribulation" or 70th week will end at the 7th bowl. "After the tribulation of those days" will then be some time after the 7th bowl has ended the Week.

In Revelation, God did not show John the gathering as Jesus was descending, nor did John hear a trumpet, so, of course, did not write it. If God had shown it to John and if John had heard the trumpet, He would have written it in chapter 19.

By the way, I don't buy into classic pre-trib theory of phases of the "second" coming. Paul called it at coming in 1 Thes. and His coming to Armageddon is also a coming. Therefore, I call the rapture the 2nd coming, as does Hebrews 9, and I call His Armageddon coming just that or His THIRD coming. People get up-tight about "third," saying it is not scriptural. I think though, we have all learned to count up to three at least. I usually call it His Armageddon coming as shown in Matthew 24 and in Rev. 19. It is hard to confuse that.

Edited January 30, 2023 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

I would like to encourage you to consider the opening post of my thread titled, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).  We can discuss more about the above there if you would like.

Right off, I disagreed with your theory of division. I believe Jesus' entire discourse was directed toward Jews and the end of THEIR age. At that time, the Gentile church of today was a MYSTERY still hidden in the Father.

Remember, Jesus had laid aside His Godly attribute of being all knowing. What Jesus knew at that time was limited by what the FAther had revealed to Him. He did not know that Israel, as the leadership or as the Sanhedrin,  would reject Him as their Messiah. He did not know that the Father would allow a few years for that to happen, but if it didn't, that the God would choose to put blindness on the Jews in part and send Paul to the Gentiles. When Jesus gave His endtime discourse, I am convinced He knew nothing of these things. He was prophecying. By that I mean, He was not teaching what He KNEW, but rather was teaching what HE WAS HEARING.

With all that said, of course, Christians can apply parts of this discourse to the church or to themselves, even though it was pointed to the Jews and the end of THEIR age. They, the Jews, have had to "come along for the ride" so to speak, while God waits for the fullness of the Gentiles to have come in. (I suspect He is also waiting for the proper time: I suspect when the 7th trumpet sounds, it will be 6000 years to the day that Adam sinned. Just my opinion.)

As for the first few verses? We as Christians HAVE Christ as our savior. It would be very difficult to deceive a born again one by a false Christ. The Jews, on the other hand, MISSED their Christ when He came the first time. They are LOOKING for Him so will be very susceptible to a false Christ.

Can you pick out one verse that you believe is ONLY to the Gentile church of today? I cannot.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Concerning your last question, I don't---in any kind of way whatsoever!  If you consider the opening post of my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/), you will find that I---as you---also believe that The Revelation is in chronological order.  The first 10 chapters are so chronological that it is not even in the realm of possibility for them to be more chronological.  Then, chapters 11-20 continue chronologically, but with overlapping information, as I show in that thread and this thread as well.

I believe, if you show me something you say is "overlapping," I will suggest it is not, but only a parenthesis.

For example, consider the Two Witnesses. John introduces his readers to them the moment they suddenly "show up." (They will come from heaven.) That is in 11:3.  But then, after a verse or two or three, John takes His readers down a side journey (Some may call it a rabbit trail) down the last half of the week with the Two Witnesses, showing us their entire ministry. The rabbit trail cannot be a part of John's chronology. It will be a parallel of the just previously mentioned 42 months, and the yet to be mentioned 1260 days of fleeing and the 42 months of authority.

Some may call this "overlap." I call it parallel. John has 5 parallel paths to the end of the week, running behind the scenes, or behind his narrative. I believe the starting of these 5 countdowns are staggered. All five will not begin on the same day.

Therefore, I am convinced that John used the idea of parentheses, but they had no marks to show them. Here may be the easiest parenthesis to see.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

While here, I'm excited to make a comment that relates more specifically to what I wanted the focus of this thread to be.  That second set of 10 chapters---every one of them---pertain to the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week (chps. 11-19) and what the ultimate purpose of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy was in the first place (chp. 20).  Kinda like the Touch of Divinity!     

I am so close to being in agreement with you here that I almost want to just say "I agree."   I just want to make sure that with chapter seven, you see this as connecting hard with the 6th Seal and something that John sees before the 7th Seal is opened.  It seems that I remember a take on this that you had that causes flags to come up in my mind, but I can't say for sure.

Recall that I also see the 7th Seal being opened not long after the 6th Seal is opened, like, ON THE SAME DAY.

 

I guess you are saying that chapters 11 through 20 are Daniel's 70th week. I disagree. The week ends at the 7th bowl in chapter 19. Chapter 20 is as a photograph of a time shortly after Armageddon and after the sheep and goat judgment, so into the Millennial kingdom.

I believe I also disagree on the purpose of the 70th week. I believe Daniel 12 gives us that purpose: to utterly crush and shatter the power of Israel - so that ONLY GOD can save them.

How do I see chapter 7? I see that chapter as an intermission for God to "rearrange the setting" to prepare for the next "act:" the 70th week of Daniel that will begin with the opening of the 7th seal and the 30 minutes of silence.

God MUST SEE two things before He will allow the HURT to begin on earth. First, He must see that the 144,000 have all been sealed for their protection.

Second, He MUST see that the church is safe in heaven.

When God is seen that these two events are completed, then He will allow the 7th seal to be opened.

I think there must be time for the cosmic signs. That would be, if God uses natural eclipses, about two weeks. If the rapture were to happen on the Feast of Trumpets as I suspect, then the ten days of Awe would come next, so perhaps there will be ten days between the two seals.

I will be honest with you: I am still troubled by when EXACTLY the Day of the Lord begins. I want to say, like Rosenthal and Van Kampen, to two men to began the "Pre-wrath" rapture theory, that the rapture and the Day of the Lord are back to back events. It seems right - but it cannot be right because of Joel 2: the signs must come "before" the start of the Day.

Perhaps God gets angry and then, because He is angry, begins the Day. So the earthquake of the 6th seal comes with God's wrath, but it is not yet the DAY of His wrath. 

I am convinced that the rapture will be the trigger for wrath, or else the Day of His wrath. Both Jesus coming and the coming of the DAY is said to come as a thief. To mean that means without any preceding signs. Yet that pesky passage in Joel seems to say the signs come before...

I will add that perhaps 90% of the Old Testament usage of the Hebrew word behind "before" in Joel 2, means "face" as in God SEEING it. Only a few times is this Hebrew word used as "before" in a sequence: some event comes in time before another event.

If it was not for the Joel 2 verse, I could say without hesitation that the rapture and the Day will be back to back events.

As I have read several pre-wrath books, It seems they believe the rapture to be the first event of the Day, and the Day would begin at the 7th seal. I don't think so. I believe when John mentions an event using a Greek Aorist verb, the event would begin at the time of the verse, not later after other verses.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

My position is that the gathering will happen just after the 6th Seal is opened.  There is coming a day (a literal day like Monday) when the Lamb is going to open the 6th Seal.  Based on all the evidences we find in Scripture, my position would be that the first order of business will be the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  Everything else that is spoken of will attend this event.

According to my concept of what Scripture will support, whereas the "sign" appearance that Christ will make at this time will be on the order of a glimpse, everything else will be like lingering ripple effects of the event---what those who are left will see and experience after the event of the gathering.

It is because Jesus will come as a "thief" and the DOTL will come as "a thief in the night" that I see Jesus making off with the valuables first.   Perhaps some of the things Jesus mentioned first and John wrote of first will indeed be seen in a fraction of time before the actual appearance and gathering.  Kinda like some thieves are actually seen before the valuables are taken---but everything happens so quickly.  Like the door is busted open or the glass is heard to break and there is bewilderment about the strange noise before the thief is actually gone with the goods.  I wouldn't want to get in a big argument about it.  Bottom line---He is coming for the gathering both suddenly and unexpectedly!  And, everything that Jesus spoke of and John wrote of will happen right there at about the same time.

As I was typing---just kinda contemplating what the day will be like---my mind goes to what happened on 9/11/01.  Relatively speaking, very few in America saw the first tower hit.  But, almost everyone in America saw the second tower hit.  What was the difference?  Americans were tuned in when the second tower was hit.  I submit that when Jesus comes for the gathering of the Church, it will catch the world completely off guard---like when the first tower was hit.  By comparison, however, as Noah's worldwide flood was to a local downpour, so will the event of the opening of the 6th Seal be to 9/11/01.

Have you considered that at the time of an eclipse, only a small portion of the earth can view this as any given time.  I submit that at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal, wherever the sun may be seen by anyone at this time, it will appear "as black as sackcloth of hair" and wherever the moon may be seen by anyone at this time, it will appear "as blood" (Rev. 6:12).

It is kind of like "every eye will see Him." This seems more like a figure of speech, and may only mean "most" eyes will see him. Perhaps this is referring to when He lights up the sky like lightning flashing across a dark sky. People see the lightning even when they are not actually looking for lightning.

On the other hand, today "most" people can see things from the other side of the world, via iphones, fiber optic cables, and satellite communications. If there is a blood moon seen on one side of the planet, someone video's it and it is seen without second on the other side of the world. I think God will use eclipses simply because they are natural events and when God can use something natural, it seems He does.

Can there be time between words of a verse?

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
<time passing>
there was a great earthquake;
<time passing>
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
<time passing>
and the moon became as blood;
<time passing>13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
<time passing>
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I think many people read in Revelation and the thought of time passing never enters their minds.

The question one might have, if time is considers, HOW MUCH TIME?

I know, scientifically speaking, that there must be around two weeks between a solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse. Can two weeks of time fit between the sun and moon in John's writing? I think it can. I am convinced that all the events listed at the 6th seal will not happen in the second after the seal is opened.

What I cannot see at the present is there being signs for men to see and ponder, then the start of the Day of the Lord (As Joel 2 seems to say) and then the Day beginning—and that day coming as a thief in the night.

[iamlamad]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:29 AM, truth7t7 said:

That's correct, the book of Revelation is seen in "Parallel" teachings of same events, and not chronologically as dispensationalism falsely teaches, the end is seen several places in the Revelation 

Example: The 7th Vial and 7th Trump (The End), Revelation 11:15, 16:17, 19:15 20:9-15 is (The End) all seen in "Parallel" teachings of the same event

Jesus Is The Lord

 

Yes, Jesus is Lord, but I personally think your theory in this post is nonsense.

[truth7t7]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, Jesus is Lord, but I personally think your theory in this post is nonsense.

Do you deny the "Final Judgement" is seen in Revelation 11:18 below?

Revelation 11:18KJV

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

Do you deny the "Final Judgement" is seen in Revelation 11:18 below?

Revelation 11:18KJV

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is a prophecy of future events, spoken by the 24 elders. These events will take place later in the book. The 7th trumpet, causing the Kingdoms of the world to be returned to Jesus Christ, make these future events possible.

[truth7t7]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is a prophecy of future events, spoken by the 24 elders. These events will take place later in the book. The 7th trumpet, causing the Kingdoms of the world to be returned to Jesus Christ, make these future events possible.

Once again, a simple yes or no will do?

Do you deny the "Final Judgement" is seen in Revelation 11:18 below?

Revelation 11:18KJV

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.