When Groaning and Sighing Become Spiritual

[Mr. M]

10 minutes ago, Alive said:

Amen! I am glad you posted this verse and the others as well.

In my own experience over the years, this is what I have seen to be the case. Each time when this occurs, there is a wonderful joyous sense of both profound peace and joy in His very presence.

Either when there is a great need or an outpouring of praise...or actually both.

He is Gracious.

If the circumstances that I (or we) have endured had depended solely on our ability to pray through, I don't think I would have made it. Many nights have been spent in wordless groaning, and the Holy Spirit was there, carrying me through. Amen.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Hebrews 7:24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

When the Son intercedes, the Spirit responds with groanings that cannot be expressed in words, for they are spiritual prayers, not human.

Thank you for sharing and with scriptures, however, some points of truth to consider;

The KJV has Him making silent intercessions with groanings which cannot be uttered hence He cannot utter His own groanings even though He has them and His own intercessions.

Other modern Bibles has changed the message in Romans 8:26-27 as if He can utter groans or make some noise that are not expressed in words thus excusing gibberish nonsense as if that can be God's gift of tongues too.

from a language of men to gibberish nonsense as found in the occult per Isiah 8:19 ad world's religions?  I do not believe so.  For God to call sinners away from those spirits and that kind of tongues, is why all invitations points to the Son for coming to God the Father by rather than seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues which is an apostate calling in seeking salvation by a sign per Matthew 12:38-40 KJV

Jesus is the only Mediator between God and men;  1 Timothy 2:5  The reality is that the Holy Spirit cannot give His intercessions directly to the Father for why the Son that knows the mind of the Spirit, gives the Spirit's silent intercessions to the Father. 

The very same "he" as that Jesus that searches our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ) for how the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer. Matthew 6:8

This is so because all power has been given unto the Son Matthew 28:18 to answer prayers John 14:13-14 so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.  Whatever the Holy Spirit does, he does it as the Spirit of Christ for why the Holy Spirit defers all credit and glory in the ministry to Jesus Christ, even answers to prayers per John 16:13-15.

This truth in aligning with the Romans 8:26-27 in the KJV and John  16:13 in the KJV is why the Holy Spirit makes silent intercessions for every believer at any time for one of the reasons why and how the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer and that is because the Son knows the mind of the Spirit and the Son searches our hearts before we ask to give our yet unspoken intercessions and the Spirit's silent intercessions to the Father.

To apply groanings to the Holy Spirit as if He prays out loud in tongues for private use is to take away that assurance of what the Holy Spirit does for every believer.

Quote

2 Co 12:3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

What we cannot express in words, results in groanings within us.

Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

There is the silent groanings of the Holy Spirit for when we grieve the Holy Spirit as opposed to our own groanings which we can hear and so Romans 8:23 is not inferring the groanings of the Holy Spirit at all which is silent but our own groanings.

As for 2 Corinthians 12:3, if we read that in context;

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

I believe Paul was referring to the apostle John and the Book of Revelation because of the warning in that Book about the consequence for taking away or adding to the Book of Revelation thus the fear of when citing in recall incorrectly.

So obviously John heard the words but it is not lawful for man to utter for why they are considered as unspeakable as being from the Book of Revelation.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Amen! I am glad you posted this verse and the others as well.

In my own experience over the years, this is what I have seen to be the case. Each time when this occurs, there is a wonderful joyous sense of both profound peace and joy in His very presence.

Either when there is a great need or an outpouring of praise...or actually both.

He is Gracious.

And what is your consolation for non tongue speakers?

Does this mean God is not so gracious towards them?

I do not doubt your supernatural experience but we were warned about seducing spirits, right?  1 Timothy 4:1 and so just because it feels good, that does not mean it is from God, right?  Just something to take pause about for discernment with Jesus Christ.

Another point of contention and a good reminder is that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit per 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and Jesus Christ is in you per 2 Corinthians 13:5  as always per Matthew 28:20 & John 14:16.  That is how we will know Him by Him being in us;  John 14:17.   Not outside of us where the spirit of the antichrist dwells per 1 John 4:3-4 for when testing the spirits 1 john 4:1-6 KJV

That means He is in you and with you always.  So what does tongues for private use steal away?  If you say well you know He is in you always but what does that indirectly testify to non tongue speakers when you say He does that whenever there is a need? or an outpouring of praise? 

And if tongue should ever stop, will you doubt He is in you or would you not need that as a sign that He still is?

I'd say He is in you always, brother, but your testimony offers little consolation to non tongue speakers.

is God showing partiality within the body of Christ?  How can He for that would be evil.  So how "good" is tongues for private use?

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

And what is your consolation for non tongue speakers?

Does this mean God is not so gracious towards them?

I do not doubt your supernatural experience but we were warned about seducing spirits, right?  1 Timothy 4:1 and so just because it feels good, that does not mean it is from God, right?  Just something to take pause about for discernment with Jesus Christ.

Another point of contention and a good reminder is that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit per 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and Jesus Christ is in you per 2 Corinthians 13:5  as always per Matthew 28:20 & John 14:16.  That is how we will know Him by Him being in us;  John 14:17.   Not outside of us where the spirit of the antichrist dwells per 1 John 4:3-4 for when testing the spirits 1 john 4:1-6 KJV

That means He is in you and with you always.  So what does tongues for private use steal away?  If you say well you know He is in you always but what does that indirectly testify to non tongue speakers when you say He does that whenever there is a need? or an outpouring of praise? 

And if tongue should ever stop, will you doubt He is in you or would you not need that as a sign that He still is?

I'd say He is in you always, brother, but your testimony offers little consolation to non tongue speakers.

is God showing partiality within the body of Christ?  How can He for that would be evil.  So how "good" is tongues for private use?

Glosolalia is used to control the tongue which in turn control the whole body. In desperate situation of life full of trials and hardships the Holy Spirit takes over with Glosolalia to strengthen us, God did not promise Rose garden but God promise Holy Spirit to all believers who ask.

 

[ChristB4us]

9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Glosolalia is used to control the tongue which in turn control the whole body. In desperate situation of life full of trials and hardships the Holy Spirit takes over with Glosolalia to strengthen us, God did not promise Rose garden but God promise Holy Spirit to all believers who ask.

 

That promise was to come from the Father for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ in coming to and believing in Him;  that was about salvation; not about tongues for private use.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

You have to take heed to Jesus's warning when Azusa Street Revival which sets the parameters for the Pentecostal & Charismatic Churches by how they set the emphasis on receiving the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

And yet nowhere does it teach any believer to seek such a baptism with the Holy Ghost as if it will always come with evidence of tongues and so mislead new believers that believe in Him to seek after a sign at their salvation thus going astray from Him.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Here is Matthew's account of Luke's account.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

That is why both references is about eternal salvation rather than just receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost by believing in Jesus Christ because other good things have come when one has been born again of the Spirit like reconciliation with God the Father.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:.... 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.... 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

[R. Hartono]

54 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

That promise was to come from the Father for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ in coming to and believing in Him;  that was about salvation; not about tongues for private use.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

You have to take heed to Jesus's warning when Azusa Street Revival which sets the parameters for the Pentecostal & Charismatic Churches by how they set the emphasis on receiving the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

And yet nowhere does it teach any believer to seek such a baptism with the Holy Ghost as if it will always come with evidence of tongues and so mislead new believers that believe in Him to seek after a sign at their salvation thus going astray from Him.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Here is Matthew's account of Luke's account.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

That is why both references is about eternal salvation rather than just receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost by believing in Jesus Christ because other good things have come when one has been born again of the Spirit like reconciliation with God the Father.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:.... 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.... 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

If you have ever been trial like Job then you will understand the purpose of Glosolalia in desperate Times, unless we are only theologians. 

I don't think there's any Mark of trials of scar tissue in your body, like Paul had. 

Lord o Lord, for the true saints are accused day and night in front of the Throne as they face unexpected trials like Job.

Edited May 4, 2023 by R. Hartono

[ChristB4us]

27 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

If you have ever been trial like Job then you will understand the purpose of Glosolalia in desperate Times, unless we are only theologians. 

I don't think there's any Mark of trials of scar tissue in your body, like Paul had. 

Lord o Lord, for the true saints are accused day and night in front of the Throne as they face unexpected trials like Job.

Still denying Romans 8:26-27 in the KJV as making silent intercessions without groanings to all non-tongue speaking believers?

And non-tongue speaking believers have gone through trials without tongues for private use as the Lord still helps them.

So is this making a big deal about tongues for private use in selling it to non-tongue speakers to seek it by that baptism with the Holy Ghost? 

Or is it to sow doubts to non-tongue speakers that they do not have the Holy Ghost and thus doubt that they are saved because they do not have tongues for private use?  

Does it comfort the body of Christ or just another way that glorifies tongue speakers by that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues?

What do you say to the readers right now that may be having a crisis of faith because of the way you deem the importance of tongues for private use for their lives to get them through their fiery trials?

I would give this answer that tongues are not necessary for helping anyone through trials, but praying to Jesus Christ is necessary.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Better to know what you had prayed for to know when you get an answer to known normal prayers to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name which is the will of God for us to do.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Again I ask this:  What do you say to the readers right now that may be having a crisis of faith because of the way you deem the importance of tongues for private use for their lives to get them through their fiery trials?

Or maybe you should share why it is important for you to have tongues for private use to get you through your trials?

[George]

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