Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[FreeGrace]

9 minutes ago, teddyv said:

There are similarities to Gap Theory but I did not think that was what you are advancing.

What I have shown from the most common translations of the verb and noun elsewhere in the OT shows that there is a clear time gap between v.1 and 2 in Genesis 1.  As to "theory" I haven't said anything.  Theory is what could have happened during that time gap.  No one knows.  Anything explained is only opinion.  God left the details out of the picture.  

What He left in is the fact that He didn't create the earth a waste place (Isa 45:18, NASB) but the earth became a wasteland.

As Paul once said, "I am saying nothing beyond what" the Bible says.

[BeyondET]

9 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Then why did you post:  "When say stuff like, "you haven't met her" your mind is into something."

If you didn't miss the humor, why insinuate something foul?

You like to twist anything you can get your hands on.

Your humor isn't My humor.

You saying foul shows where your mind is at foul. The word foul was never used but your mind went there.

Edited June 29, 2023 by BeyondET

[NConly]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

As Gen 1:2 stands, the translation contradicts Isa 45:18 directly.  Either God DID or DID NOT create the earth TOHU (mistranslated in Gen 1:2).

Isa 45:18 - For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formedthe earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place (TOHU), but formed it to be inhabited ), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.  NASB

Plain as day:  God "did not creat it a waste place".  The Hebrew word "TOHU" is never translated "formless" except in Gen 1:2.  It is translated as "waste", "wasteland" "waste place" and "chaos" elsewhere.

Even the translation "formless" or "without form" is bogus, since EVERY object has form.  There is no such thing as a formless object.  That is impossible.  And there is nothing in Genesis 1 that addresses formlessness.

So, no, this is not one of those rare times.  You can see for yourself at biblehub.com the verses where "hayah" is translated as "was".  Of the 111 verses that have the exact same form of the verb, only 4% were translated as "was", whereas 59% were translated as "became/become".  

One more thing.  The Septuagint is the OT translated into Koine Greek.  While the traditional translation of v.2 begins with the conjunction of continuation (and), the LXX begins v.2 with the conjunction of contrast (but).  

All put together, the traditional translation contradicts Isa 45:18 and cannot be correct.  But using the LXX and the most common translations of the verb 'hayah' and noun 'tohu', there is no contradiction with any verse in the Bible.

Well  from the day after it was written till today it was read and copied by thousands of people that were to make sure it was right and they spoke the early language  but now almost 6 thousand years later has it been found. very rarely happens every 6 thousands years

[NConly]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Apparently you miss humor.

I never met miss Humor is she blonde?

[Retrobyter]

On 6/27/2023 at 8:33 AM, The Barbarian said:

You're confusing the OT with the entire Bible.  The Bible incorporates some (but not all) writings from Hebrew times.

Shalom, The Barbarian (and to all of the same mindset).

Sorry, but one must understand that the "New Testament" is an EXTENTION of the "Old!" It talks about the SAME GOD; it's about the SAME WORD; it's written by the SAME PEOPLE, and it shows the SAME FAITH in God! Everyone, who has been REDEEMED (bought back from slavery to sin) and is JUSTIFIED by YHWH God, was done so BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH, and BY BLOOD!

The Old Testament animal sacrifices were a PICTURE of the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God foreshadowed in the sacrifice! The prophecies in the Old Testatment were those about the Messiah who would come, first as haMashiyach ben Yosef - the Messiah Son of Joseph (the Joseph in Genesis), the Suffering and Dying Messiah - and second as haMashiyach ben David - the Messiah Son of David, the Victorious and Reigning Messiah. This is VERY IMPORTANT for one to understand!

The Levites, priests, scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees that Yeeshuwa` encountered during His First Advent understood the Messiah would come as ben David - the Son of David, but they neglected to understand that He would also come as ben Yosef - the son of Joseph who was led into Egypt and presumed dead by his father, Israel! These Old Testament accounts are HISTORY, not allegory! And, then Yosef was "discovered still ALIVE and SECOND IN COMMAND in Egypt!"

THIS was the order of events that they missed! So, the suffering and dying Messiah would come FIRST and THEN come as the victorious and reigning Messiah! Some rabbis thought they were reversed in order; others thought there would be TWO Messiahs; still others thought there would be MANY promised Messiahs! That's what Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was asking when he sent his students from his prison to Yeeshuwa` to ask if He was the Messiah to come! He was asking, "Are you the One and ONLY Messiah, fulfilling both roles, or will there be a SECOND Messiah?"

Matthew 11:2-5 (KJV)

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him,

"Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"

4 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 

5 "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 

6 "And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

Luke 7:18-23 (KJV)

18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying,

"Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?"

20 When the men were come unto him, they said,

"John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, 'Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?'"

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 22 Then Jesus answering said unto them,

"Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that ,,,

'the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.' 

23 "And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

John was a loner and lived off the wild land, but he was NOT unintelligent or uninformed when it came to the Scriptures! He was a PROPHET of God! He KNEW of the discussions that the rabbis were having about the two Messiahs. Other prophets who came before Him were given the two different scenarios, but the discussions arose because they seemed contradictory! How could the "ONE Messiah" both die and reign forever? They hadn't yet realized the order in which they had to occur, and they hadn't come to the realization that there would be ONLY ONE, ETERNAL Messiah.

See, there have been MANY messiahs in the Old Testament: Aharown ("Aaron") and his sons were the first of the children of Israel to be so anointed. A "messiah" is one who has been "RUBBED" or "MASSAGED" with oil as a sign of his inauguration into God's service, either as priest, prophet, or king. Others anointed were Saul, the first king, David, Solomon, all of the Kings of Judah, and Elijah, Elisha, and the other prophets who were publicly announced as prophets. Even some foreign kings were so anointed by God! AND, when one realizes that "Christos" is a TRANSLATION of "Mashiyach," from Hebrew to Greek, this means that there were many legitimate "christs!"

What made Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") different was that He was the fulfillment of a legitimate Messiah who would reign FOREVER! And, we're still talking about His reign over the nation of Israel, because God and those to whom He was revealed recognized Him as "THE son of David," the legitimate HEIR to the throne! Even Gabriel's prophecy prior to His conception said the same!

Luke 1:26-33 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, OF THE HOUSE OF DAVID; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!" (In our words, he was saying, "You're the 'luckiest' woman in the world, because YHWH has given you the greatest honor!")

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

This is no less than the BEGINNING of the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant!

2 Samuel 7:8-16 (KJV)

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit (be twisted into) iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

(This is NOT talking about Solomon, for Solomon was made king BEFORE David died!)

So, Yeeshuwa` (which means "He shall save" or "He shall rescue") was the SEED of David who would reign over the house of Israel FOREVER! We also learn from this that not only would He reign forever, but of His Kingdom there shall be no end! This is not still talking about His Kingdom's duration, but the EXTENT of His Kingdom!

Abraham's Covenant from God was that, through HIM, "all the nations of the earth would be blessed!" 

So, when one doesn't recognize that the New Testament is the FULFILLMENT and an EXTENSION to the Old Testament, it means that one has not be shown all this information (or he or she has not picked up on it, yet). The New Testament doesn't change anything! It begins to FULFILL it all!

Edited June 29, 2023 by Retrobyter
to open it up for all to read

[The Barbarian]

None of that pilpul will do anything to save.   

Matthew 7:²¹ “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ²² On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ²³ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, BeyondET said:

FreeGrace said: 

Then why did you post:  "When say stuff like, "you haven't met her" your mind is into something."

If you didn't miss the humor, why insinuate something foul?

You like to twist anything you can get your hands on.

So you TWIST humor into something else, huh.

11 hours ago, BeyondET said:

You saying foul shows where your mind is at foul. The word foul was never used but your mind went there.

Your comment was a clear insinuation that my mind was "on something".  I view drugs as foul.  Your comment was foul.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, NConly said:

Well  from the day after it was written till today it was read and copied by thousands of people that were to make sure it was right and they spoke the early language  but now almost 6 thousand years later has it been found. very rarely happens every 6 thousands years

To be clear, when the Hebrew was FIRST translated into the Koine Greek of the NT, which is the Septuagint, about 200-300 BC, the scholars KNEW to translate the Hebrew "waw" as a conjunction of contrast, so there is NO excuse for any English translation to use either "and" or "now".  

Further, the Hebrew scholars translated v.2 as "BUT the earth was unsightly and unfurnished", which is closer to the meaning of "tohu" than the traditional English translation of "without form", which is ridiculous, as EVERY object HAS form.  Can't get around it.

And, tohu is translated as "waste", "wasteland", "waste place" and "chaos" elsewhere in the OT.  So "unsightly" is far closer to reality than the ridiculous "formless" translation.

And, IF God created the earth tohu (formless), then v.2 contradicts Isa 45:18, which says that "God did NOT create the earth tohu".  So there's that.

Given your comments about translations for "6,000 years", please cite any source before the KJV was written that scholars believed the earth to be young.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, NConly said:

FreeGrace said: 

Apparently you miss humor.

I never met miss Humor is she blonde?

Good one!  But that's not Beyond ET's kind of humor.  

[FreeGrace]

17 hours ago, JimmyB said:

In every single translation listed on biblegateway.com -- and there are 55 by my count -- it is translated "was" every single time.  It is very rare to have every single translation have the. same verb.  I believe the  unanimous translation of the verb "was", not "became".

This isn't about a vote.  It's about HOW the exact same form of that verb is translated elsewhere in the OT.  And 59% of the time, that exact same form of the verb is translated as "become/became", and only 4% of the time as "was".  Do your homework.  Biblehub.com makes it real easy.

It should be common knowledge that translators do a lot of copying.  And when there are no details to support what happened during that time gap, they typically punt.

However, defending the 55 translations on bible gateway.com means you have to be comfortable with Gen 1:2 CONTRADICTING Isa 45:18.  Are you willing to defend a contradiction between the 2 verses?

55 say "God created the earth and the earth was tohu".

Isa 45:18 says "God DID NOT create the earth tohu".

How comfortable are you with that blatant contradiction?

And, to further support my view of Genesis 1 being a summary of God's restoration of earth after becoming a wasteland, consider Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

The Greek word poorly translated as "formed" is 'katartizo' a word translated in the NT as "restored", "mended" etc.  My lexicon defines the word to mean "adjust to fit, repair, mend", and in an ethical sense, "to complete".

So there is NT support for Genesis 1 being a restoration.