Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[FreeGrace]

12 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

FreeGrace said: 

Let's actually see what Isaiah did say:

New American Standard Bible
For this is what the LORD says, He who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it as a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited): “I am the LORD, and there is no one else.

Form to be inhabitable not formed to inhabitable then a wasteland back to a habitable planet again.

I wonder why you keep missing the point.  The verse says "God did not create the earth as a waste place (TOHU)".

Yet, the traditional translation of Genesis 1:1-2 says "God created the earth and it was TOHU.

That is a contradiction.

12 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

I've told you I have no problem with earth is 4.5 billion years old.

Yeah, I got that.  So how do you explain the 6 LITERAL days of Genesis 1 then?

Apparently then, you DO believe in evolution.  Unless you provide an explanation that accounts for 6 literal days but doesn't include evolution.

The Barbarian also agrees the earth is very old, but he wouldn't explain why my view isn't acceptable.  He just wanted to discuss evolution and adaptation.

[FreeGrace]

15 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

What was the habitation of that completed earth in the beginning.

No life had been formed yet.

Actually, we don't have ANY DETAILS about "earth in the beginning".  God didn't include that in the narrative of Genesis 1.

All we know is that God created the universe, including earth in v.1.  

v.2, BUT the earth bECAME a WASTELAND.  

So God restored the wasted earth for man's existence.

You accept a very old earth but deny a time gap between v.1 and 2.  And you still can't explain yourself about that.

[JimmyB]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I wonder why you keep missing the point.  The verse says "God did not create the earth as a waste place (TOHU)".

Yet, the traditional translation of Genesis 1:1-2 says "God created the earth and it was TOHU.

That is a contradiction.

Yeah, I got that.  So how do you explain the 6 LITERAL days of Genesis 1 then?

Apparently then, you DO believe in evolution.  Unless you provide an explanation that accounts for 6 literal days but doesn't include evolution.

The Barbarian also agrees the earth is very old, but he wouldn't explain why my view isn't acceptable.  He just wanted to discuss evolution and adaptation.

Why do you think that the six days are literal 24-hour days?  The Bible is a spiritual book, meant to teach God's wisdom, knowledge, and ways.  It is not a science textbook.

 

How was there light before the sun, moon, and stars were created?  Perhaps Genesis 1:3-5 were written to define what a day was to the Jews.

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I wonder why you keep missing the point.  The verse says "God did not create the earth as a waste place (TOHU)".

Yet, the traditional translation of Genesis 1:1-2 says "God created the earth and it was TOHU.

That is a contradiction.

Yeah, I got that.  So how do you explain the 6 LITERAL days of Genesis 1 then?

Apparently then, you DO believe in evolution.  Unless you provide an explanation that accounts for 6 literal days but doesn't include evolution.

The Barbarian also agrees the earth is very old, but he wouldn't explain why my view isn't acceptable.  He just wanted to discuss evolution and adaptation.

Earth was part of the waters above before being formed into a planet. Interesting the waters above which earth came from is only mentioned in the beginning once.

Yom in Hebrew can mean multiple lengths and is represented in Hebrew scriptures as such not just what the English language of a day is which is pretty much 24 hours. The Bible doesn't say how long the Yoms of creation was. And I don't believe each day was a literal 24 hour day but a day nonetheless that is much longer like the galactic tick, lights in the expanse are for days years and seasons also.

the created stars are the other planets in the solar system separate from the lights in the galaxy expanse.

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Actually, we don't have ANY DETAILS about "earth in the beginning".  God didn't include that in the narrative of Genesis 1.

All we know is that God created the universe, including earth in v.1.  

v.2, BUT the earth bECAME a WASTELAND.  

So God restored the wasted earth for man's existence.

You accept a very old earth but deny a time gap between v.1 and 2.  And you still can't explain yourself about that.

In afew verses details are given earth was part of the waters above.

Earth couldn't of had life on it like plants or trees organisms etc. before God commanded such things to be. Waters above is were earth was formed from and became the waters below.

Edited July 1, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

40 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Earth was part of the waters above before being formed into a planet. Interesting the waters above which earth came from is only mentioned in the beginning once.

No, what is interesting is how you keep dodging the issue.  Isa 45:18 SAYS that God did not create the earth tohu (a waste place), whereas your favored translation says that God created the earth tohu.

The only way to solve the contradiction is to realize that the earth BECAME a waste place (tohu).  

40 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Yom in Hebrew can mean multiple lengths and is represented in Hebrew scriptures as such not just what the English language of a day is which is pretty much 24 hours. The Bible doesn't say how long the Yoms of creation was. And I don't believe each day was a literal 24 hour day but a day nonetheless that is much longer like the galactic tick, lights in the expanse are for days years and seasons also.

the created stars are the other planets in the solar system separate from the lights in the galaxy expanse.

How does any of this help your rejection of what v.2 says when compared with how the 2 key words in v.2 are translated elsewhere in the OT?

Moreover, Genesis 1 is cited in the NT as being a restoration.

Heb 11;3 - By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

katartizó: to complete, prepare

Original Word: καταρτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katartizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-tid'-zo)
Definition: to complete, prepare
Usage: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse).

HELPS Word-studies

2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, "according to, down," intensifying artizō, "to adjust," which is derived from 739 /ártios, "properly adjusted") – properly, exactly fit (adjust) to be in good working order, i.e. adjusted exactly "down" to fully function.

Notice how katartizo is translated in these 2 verses:

Matt 4:21 - And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them.

Mark 1:19 - And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets.

And in these verses:

Gal 6:1 - Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

1 Pet 5:10 - And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

So, in Heb 11:3, the word "formed" is katartizo, which refers to a restoration.

Edited July 1, 2023 by FreeGrace

[BeyondET]

10 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, what is interesting is how you keep dodging the issue.  Isa 45:18 SAYS that God did not create the earth tohu (a waste place), whereas your favored translation says that God created the earth tohu.

The only way to solve the contradiction is to realize that the earth BECAME a waste place (tohu).  

How does any of this help your rejection of what v.2 says when compared with how the 2 key words in v.2 are translated elsewhere in the OT?

The objects in the beginning, the surface of the water, surface of the deep, darkness, light. From these the heavens and earth was created in the beginning.

I see you avoid talking about the waters above where earth came from the waters.

I would agree that wasn't a wasteland and had order.

Verse 2 is verse 1 and verse 1 was the title not Genesis. Which is derived from the verse 1 saying.

Edited July 1, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

15 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

The objects in the beginning, the surface of the water, surface of the deep, darkness, light. From these the heavens and earth was created.

I believe Psa 33:9 - For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

It is very clear.  God spoke and the universe and everything in it "came to be".

The heavens and earth were created out of nothing.  Ex nihilo.

15 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

I see you avoid talking about the waters above where earth came from the waters.

Because I don't need to.  God spoke the waters above the earth into existence.  But v.1 is what originally was created, BEFORE the earth BECAME a wasteland and required restoration for man's dwelling place.

15 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

I would agree that wasn't a wasteland and had order.

Well, enjoy the huge contradiction you can't avoid, since Isa 45:18 SAYS that God didn't create the earth tohu (wasteland).

[BeyondET]

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I believe Psa 33:9 - For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

It is very clear.  God spoke and the universe and everything in it "came to be".

The heavens and earth were created out of nothing.  Ex nihilo.

Because I don't need to.  God spoke the waters above the earth into existence.  But v.1 is what originally was created, BEFORE the earth BECAME a wasteland and required restoration for man's dwelling place.

Well, enjoy the huge contradiction you can't avoid, since Isa 45:18 SAYS that God didn't create the earth tohu (wasteland).

The waters was separated first into two distinct places. Then the dryland appeared for which God calls earth and the waters He calls seas thus planet earth.

There's no contradiction God separated the waters and because of the separation things started from scratch solar system formation.

Like the gold in your body that keeps the electrical current moving and joints operating everything of earth started somewhere else in another form. Billions of years ago though God knows where every atom was or to be all the way to the end of the heavens and earth.

Edited July 1, 2023 by BeyondET

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IS NULL AND VOID

a 'process of creation'

or 

A RESULT OF DESTRUCTION? 

 
I fall on the side of 'a result of destruction' BECAUSE I can and do find 

'A DESTRUCTION' WRITTEN in the words of GOD that fit everything perfectly especially with the 'fall' of the one made the full pattern....  


Do those who put forth IT IS A PROCESS OF CREATION do so BY WHAT IS WRITTEN or do they SOLELY do so by 'the wisdom of man'?   



Negating Noahs flood as having anything to do with the DESTRUCTION that cause ruin....

WHAT IS WRITTEN???
13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.


EVERY MAN DID NOT PERISH. 
EVERY ANIMAL DID NOT PERISH,
EVERY BIRD DID NOT PERISH. 

BIBLE student or not, the earth did not mourn, the SKIES did not become black and the world did NOT perish.  
 


the EARTH is not found 'with GOD in the PROCESS of it's creation', it is ALREADY THERE in the darkness when the LIGHT first shines. 

 

What those who CLAIM it is a part of 'GODS PROCESS' need to do to is show WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN because if they don't,

BY DEFAULT 'DESTRUCTION WINS' 


HERE IS A DESTRUCTION that SHOWS how the earth gets to be a ruin in darkness...

19My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.


SO what is written about as to the EFFECTS OF THAT SUDDEN DESTRUCTION that came UPON 'INHABITED EARTH'???

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

It is concealed from indeed them this willingly, that heavens existed long ago, and earth out of water and through water having been composed by the of God WORD

through which the at that time world with water having been deluged

PERISHED

622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]


but now the heavens and the earth by the same word having been stored up

exist for fire being kept unto day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men


HOW DO WE KNOW THAT DESTRUCTION IS NOT FUTURE BUT PAST?????

for fire being kept unto day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men



That is written.  No conjecture, no assumption, no conclusion, no 'wisdom of man', no 'man explains'....


IS the earth NULL AND VOID a PROCESS OF CREATION 'WRITTEN' ANYWHERE IN THE WORDS OF GOD


OR IS IT A PROCESS 'AS CONCLUDED AND CLAIMED by those of SCIENCE with

ONLY THE WISDOM OF MAN and nothing written by God. 

  


See ya in a couple of days

Shabbat shalom, DeighAnn.

Sorry, sister, but one MUST read Jeremiah through, particularly in a translation he or she understands. You see, Jeremiah was an EYE-WITNESS to the destruction of Jerusalem and the First Temple Solomon built. It was DEVASTATING to him to watch! That's why he is called "the Weeping Prophet." But, he was Providentially protected through the devastation, because, just prior to the invasion by Babylon, the king had thrown him in prison because his advice, based upon God's Revelation, was to surrender to the invaders! All the other "prophets" were saying that God would protect His city and His temple! For this, Jeremiah was labeled a traitor, and thrown in an empty cistern. God intervened, and although many were slain by the Babylonians, he was exempt from the slaughter.

When we get to chapter 4, he is reporting on the RUIN of the Land! What he said had NOTHING to do with the Creation! He was talking about destruction (tohuw) and the desolation (vaVohuw) in the wake of the armies! Not even the birds stuck around because of all the fires and smoke! All of their food was wasted; the grapes were destroyed, the fields were burned, the houses were rifled and burnt, and the people were killed, raped, or taken captive! If one had a temporary shelter in a tent, that was destroyed by fire, as well!

Jeremiah 4:8-29 (NIV)

5“Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:

‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’

Cry aloud and say:

‘Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities!’

6 Raise the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”

7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant. 8 So put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the Lord has not turned away from us.

9 “In that day,” declares the LORD, “the king and the officials will lose heart, the priests will be horrified, and the prophets will be appalled.”

10 Then I said,

“Alas, Sovereign Lord! How completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats!”

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told,

“A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.”

13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles.

"Woe to us! We are ruined! 14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? 15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim."

16 “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem:

"‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. 17 They surround her like men guarding a field, because she has rebelled against me,’ ”

declares the LORD.

18 “Your own conduct and actions have brought this on you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is! How it pierces to the heart!”

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry. 20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment. 21 How long must I see the battle standard and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 “My people are fools; they do not know me. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good.”

23 I looked at the earth (Land), and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens (the skies), and their light was gone. 24 I looked at the mountains, and they were quaking (rippling); all the hills were swaying (wavering).

25 I looked, and there were no people; every bird in the sky had flown away.

26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert; all its towns lay in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger. 27 This is what the LORD says:

“The whole land will be ruined, though I will not destroy it completely. 28 Therefore the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow dark, because I have spoken and will not relent, I have decided and will not turn back.”

29 At the sound of horsemen and archers every town takes to flight. Some go into the thickets; some climb up among the rocks. All the towns are deserted; no one lives in them.

THIS is to what these verses are referring, not that other nonsense.