Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Where was Jeremiah at the end of that destruction?  

God protected him in a pit at first, but was rescued by the Enemy and was released because he was accused for being a traitor because he advised the Jews to submit to the enemy!

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

It's going to take READING the book of Jeremiah to understand. 

Ch 4 is clear enough, I think.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 Jere 4 has the 'SCHOLARS' telling everyone it is prophecy of what was coming to Jerusalem by the Babylonians.

It was clearly about what Jeremiah SAW.  And reported.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 YET when we ACTUALLY READ the book of Jeremiah we find

NONE OF THE FACTS match up.

Well then, you are free to cut the whole book out of your Bible, if that helps.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

4:? -  says THERE WAS NO MAN but when we actually read what happened we find THERE WASN'T JUST A MAN there were a few
4:? says___________________________yet when we actually read what took place after that doesn't fit either.  
I CAN DO THAT for every verse.

I've already explained how to understand those verses.  But again, you're free to cut the whole book out of your Bible, if it bothers you to think the Bible is contradicted.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

  Apparently, there is something 'keeping it' from even being seen, let alone acknowledged.

Yes, and his name is satan.  The great deceiver.  He blinds people from the truth and wants everyone to think the Bible is contradicted and therefore cannot be believed.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

  So I will move on.  I have planted the seed. I have watered.  My job is done.  Up to God.  

Agree or not, I now put it in GODS HANDS.  Thank you for your time.  

You're welcome.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

FreeGrace said: 

Please provide the specific verse where you found that.  Thanks.

I have always acknowledged what you presented.

This doesn't address my request.

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

 This is God warning the inhabitants of the land:

Verse 16:

Tell the nations: Here they are!
Announce concerning Jerusalem:
Watchers are coming from a distant land,
They raise their voices against the towns of Judah.

New International Version
“Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

New Living Translation
“Warn the surrounding nations and announce this to Jerusalem: The enemy is coming from a distant land, raising a battle cry against the towns of Judah.

English Standard Version
Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah.

Berean Standard Bible
Warn the nations now! Proclaim to Jerusalem: “A besieging army comes from a distant land; they raise their voices against the cities of Judah

New International Version “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. New Living Translation “Warn the surrounding nations and announce this to Jerusalem: The enemy is coming from a distant land, raising a battle cry against the towns of Judah. English Standard Version Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah. Berean Standard Bible Warn the nations now! Proclaim to Jerusalem: “A besieging army comes from a distant land; they raise their voices against the cities of Judah. King James Bible Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, thatwatchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. New King James Version “Make mention to the nations, Yes, proclaim against Jerusalem, That watchers come from a far country And raise their voice against the cities of Judah. New American Standard Bible “Report it to the nations, now! Proclaim to Jerusalem, ‘Enemies are coming from a remote country, And they raise their voices against the cities of Judah. What translation contains "watchers"?  I couldn't find ANY translation on biblehub.com that included 'watchers'.

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

Look what Daniel calls the Watchers: Chapter 4:

Dan 4 is in no way related to Jer 4, so it is irrelevant.  And since I couldn't find ANY translation on biblehub.com that had the word "watchers", why do you quote the verse using that word?

1 hour ago, LiveWire said:

 

 

[LiveWire]

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

This doesn't address my request.

New International Version
“Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

New Living Translation
“Warn the surrounding nations and announce this to Jerusalem: The enemy is coming from a distant land, raising a battle cry against the towns of Judah.

English Standard Version
Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah.

Berean Standard Bible
Warn the nations now! Proclaim to Jerusalem: “A besieging army comes from a distant land; they raise their voices against the cities of Judah

New International Version “Tell this to the nations, proclaim concerning Jerusalem: ‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. New Living Translation “Warn the surrounding nations and announce this to Jerusalem: The enemy is coming from a distant land, raising a battle cry against the towns of Judah. English Standard Version Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah. Berean Standard Bible Warn the nations now! Proclaim to Jerusalem: “A besieging army comes from a distant land; they raise their voices against the cities of Judah. King James Bible Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, thatwatchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. New King James Version “Make mention to the nations, Yes, proclaim against Jerusalem, That watchers come from a far country And raise their voice against the cities of Judah. New American Standard Bible “Report it to the nations, now! Proclaim to Jerusalem, ‘Enemies are coming from a remote country, And they raise their voices against the cities of Judah. What translation contains "watchers"?  I couldn't find ANY translation on biblehub.com that included 'watchers'.

Dan 4 is in no way related to Jer 4, so it is irrelevant.  And since I couldn't find ANY translation on biblehub.com that had the word "watchers", why do you quote the verse using that word?

 

Those are all Septuagint and Mazorteic related versions.   Scholars have proven them corrupt and deemed as reference only.

 

How can I debate someone using a form of literature considered not authentic and legit for a Legit Conversation?

[Duncan]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:33 PM, Tristen said:

A common strategy for those promoting the secular, long age, model, is to find a grammatical pause in the text, and insist that all that storytelling about time and evolution can be squeezed in between sentences. 

The only evidence that the first verses of Genesis should be understood differently (in any language) comes from those with an agenda to rewrite Genesis history to conform to their own preferred model of history.

 

That's only your opinion. The best way to prove anything theologically is through scripture. 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, LiveWire said:

Those are all Septuagint and Mazorteic related versions.   Scholars have proven them corrupt and deemed as reference only.

Very convenient.

2 hours ago, LiveWire said:

How can I debate someone using a form of literature considered not authentic and legit for a Legit Conversation?

Prove it with a legitimate source.  And what translation has "watchers" rather than "nations"?  I asked already.  Do you have one or not?

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, LiveWire said:

BTW, what does FREEGRACE mean?

Jesus is Free?

Exactly what is SAYS.  Grace is free.  Can't be earned or bought.

[BeyondET]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Genesis 1:1 is about immediate creation from nothing.  No forming at all.  v.2ff shows that in the restoration, God did re-shape some things.

You still don't understanding what I mean about conception. Of scripture when man started writing.

I wasn't referring to verse 1:1. Seems your obsessed with it.

Edited July 9, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Just for fun, I decided to look at various commentaries to see what they said about Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  Not a single commentary agrees with your misinterpretation.

Commentaries are opinions.  Opinions vary.  Why don't you read the CI Scofield Reference Bible.  It makes note of a time gap.

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

  And as I pointed out previously, not a single translation does either.  So, you stand alone.

No, I stand on the Word of God.  Not commentaries, or translations that fail to do a thorough job of researching word meanings.  As in, how a particular word is translated elsewhere in the OT.  

As to your comment about no translations agreeing with me:

American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

English Revised Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Apparently you overlooked these.  

And please explain how ANY object can be "without form" or "formless".  

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Beyond that, logically what you claim makes no sense.

The opposite is true.  Contradictions in the Bible makes no sense.  And that is what you have when you accept the majority translation of v.2.

v.2 - God created the earth "tohu" 

Isa 45:18 - God did NOT  create the earth "tohu" 

So even if tohu could mean "formless", which is impossible to occur, the 2 verses contradict each other.  Understanding that "tohu" does mean a wasteland, removes the contradiction.

Now, that makes total sense.  I look forward to your explanation with examples of objects that are formless.

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

  First God created the earth, and then it was destroyed?  By whom or what?

If you had been following this discussion for a time, you would already know the answers.  Yes, God created the earth (v.1) BUT the earth BECAME a WASTELAND.  The capitalized words are supported by the LXX for "but" and how the EXACT SAME FORM of the verb "hayah" and the noun "tohu" are translated elsewhere in the OT.

As to your question, God did NOT provide any details.  Does that prove that v.2 cannot be translated the way the words are translated eoflsewhere?  Only those with an agenda would say yes.  Too bad.  In 59% of ALL occurrences of THE EXACT SAME form of the verb "hayah", are translated as "became/become", making that translation THE MOST COMMON translation of THAT EXACT SAME FORM of the verb.

In FACT, THAT EXACT SAME FORM of the verb "hayah" was translated as "was" in only 4% of the time.  

These are facts that the YEC ignore, deny, reject.  All because of an agenda.

What's your agenda?  Why the strong pushback for the earth being way older than Adam, and not just 6 days?  An old earth does NOT require evolution.  

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

  Is there some force or being that is equal to or greater than God the creator?  Another deity that is equally powerful that undid what God did?

This is ridiculous, of course.  Does not God allow for free will to be exercised?  Did God allow or cause the angelic rebellion, in which 1/3 of all angels rebelled and joined forces with Satan.  

This isn't about whether God is powerful enough.  It's simply about the result of SOMETHING so that God restored the earth (ch 1) for man's existence.  

And God didn't explain what the cause was.  Why do you seem to think God OWES you or anyone else a full explanation before you'd accept the obvious translation of v.2?

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

That makes absolutely no sense!  God is God!  He created the heavens and the earth.  So if His creation was ruined, who/what did it?

God allows freedom among His creatures, both angel and human.  Aren't you aware of that fact?  But we don't know any details, but that shouldn't make any difference.

Since you refuse to see the facts, what problems are created by an old earth with Adam being created only 6,000 years old.

6 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Exodus 20:3, " “You shall have no other gods before me."

What's your point?  God created the entire universe and earth by speaking them into existence, and they were perfect.  Something ruined the earth and God restored it so man could live on it.

What's the big deal?  What doctrines are harmed by the fact of an old earth anyway?

btw, the Hebrew in Gen 1:2 "tohu wabohu" translated in error as "formless and empty" is found only 1 more time in Jer 4:23.  Read from v.16 through v.23.  It describes a "besieging army" that DESTROYS "the land" (of Israel).  

What besieging armies CAN'T do is destroy the land by making it "formless".  That would be silly beyond belief.  The passage clearly describes total destruction.

The EXACT SAME TWO WORDS as in Gen 1:2.

"formless".  That's just laughable.  Total destruction is what happened.

Throughout the OT, "tohu" is translated as "waste", "wasteland", "waste place" and "chaos".  

The LXX translate the word TOHU in Gen 1:2 as "unsightly".  Do you really think God would create anything that was unsightly?

But, "unsightly" is FAR CLOSER to "wasteland" than simply "formless", which is meaningless.

No object can be formless.  If you can see it, it HAS FORM.

[FreeGrace]

9 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

You still don't understanding what I mean about conception. Of scripture when man started writing.

I wasn't referring to verse 1:1. Seems your obsessed with it.

Rather, it seems your posts aren't all that clear.  Maybe you could work on that a bit,   and make my job easier.

Thanks for clarifying.  But what is your point about when man strated writing?  Those who wrote Scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit.  

I firmly believe in the inerancy of Scripture.