Evolution's Achilles Heel ~ ~ Book, 9 Ph.D Scientists and Doctors ~ ~ Discussion

[BeyondET]

On 6/21/2023 at 1:25 PM, The Barbarian said:

Learn some details (with lots of cites) here:

https://c2laplehp.edu.vn/the-banana-conjecture-open-reading-frame-4j3f5gwz/

The previous didn't cite much is what I learned.

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

As you see, Jesus promised the Good Thief that he would be there with Jesus that day.  Not back on Earth, but in heaven.   An entirely different place than Earth.   Not in the future.   Not back on Earth, but in paradise that very day.

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Look. It's very simple. The Repentant Thief was going to die that day, as soon as they broke his legs so he wouldn't be able to breathe, and he suffocated and was no longer a "soul" - an "air-breathing-creature." As soon as he died, he would await the RESURRECTION, but for him, it would still be "today." Have you ever been put under for an operation? When you awaken, it's like there's been no delay at all (except in trying to shake off the affect of the induced sleep)!

The current day is "today," the future is "tomorrow," and the past is "yesterday." But, when we move to a new day, our perspective moves with the time, and what was considered "tomorrow" is then "today!" Consider what Peter said about David, the great ... grandfather of Yeeshuwa`:

Acts 2:14-36 (KJV)

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,

"Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 "'"And it shall come to pass in the last days," saith God, "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."' (Joel 2:28-32).

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 "For David speaketh concerning him,

"'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.' (Psalm 16:8-11).

29 "MEN AND BRETHREN, LET ME FREELY SPEAK UNTO YOU OF THE PATRIARCH DAVID, THAT HE IS BOTH DEAD AND BURIED, AND HIS SEPULCHRE IS WITH US UNTO THIS DAY. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before(hand) spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 "For DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS: but he saith himself,

"'The LORD (YHWH the Father) said unto my Lord (Adoniy, David's Sire, the Messiah),

"'"Sit thou on my right hand, 35 UNTIL I MAKE THY FOES THY FOOTSTOOL."'

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (the One Anointed to be King)."

And, as far as timing goes, Peter said this AFTER the Resurrection of Yeeshuwa` and AFTER His ascension.

So, why would Yeeshuwa` take the Repentant Thief to Heaven but not His own great, great, ... grandfather King David?

3 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

If your concept has become so ingrained that you doubt the word of our Lord, that's a concern.

So it's not going to be on Earth.   It's already in existence and it's another place entirely.

Actually, it's quite the other way around! You don't know the struggle it's been to dislodge the belief in some ethereal "Heaven" out there somewhere! It is a common FALLACY to believe that "Jesus is going to come back, destroy the earth, and take us all to Heaven!" That stance is SO against God's Word!

Think about it: Why should God lose ANY of His Creation? Is haSatan going to win at all? NO! He REDEEMS His Creation and renews it!

Romans 8:18-25 (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

A pastor friend of mine once said that the outline of the Bible is ...

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from what is to what ought to be - Genesis 4-Revelation 22

Do a comparison sometime between Genesis 1 and 2 and Revelation 21 and 22, and see how much of the original Creation is restored in Revelation 21 and 22!

It is what Randy Alcorn called "Christoplatonism" to believe that "the physical is bad and the spiritual is good." God CREATED the physical and called it "very good!"

3 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Jesus said there is.   And I believe Him.   You should, too.

I DO believe Yeeshuwa`! What I DON'T believe is how Christians these days have TWISTED His words to make Him out to be saying something HE NEVER SAID! He NEVER said to anticipate "going to Heaven when we die!" We are to anticipate the "BLESSED HOPE" - the Return of the Messiah with His holy messengers to RESURRECT THE DEAD and begin His reign on the earth FOREVER!

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 And he shall reign OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

This is what being the "Messiah" or being the "Christ" is all about! He is GOD'S CHOICE for Israel's King! Yeeshuwa` is not the King of the Universe, as some have claimed. The Father has that well in hand; Yeeshuwa` will be the King of the EARTH! That's what "King of kings" means! It means that He shall be the World Emperor! the first Emperor of the WHOLE earth! That is what Paul is describing in the Resurrection chapter (keeping in mind that the context is about the resurrections)!

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest (obvious) that he (GOD) is excepted, which (who) did put all things under him (the Christ). 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, that is the progression that shall occur as the Messiah reigns for the first 1,000 years of His reign: He will reign over His Kingdom of Israel first, and He will add vassal countries under His rule as they are subdued and annexed to His Empire. It will take a thousand years to get the job done, but He shall become the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. Then, He shall turn over the Empire to His Father and continue to reign over the house of Ya`aqov forever!

THIS is what Yeeshuwa` said:

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (brightness; fame):"

Luke 19:11-15, 26-27 (KJV)

 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A CERTAIN NOBLEMAN (HIMSELF) WENT INTO A FAR COUNTRY TO RECEIVE FOR HIMSELF A KINGDOM, AND TO RETURN. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM, THEN HE COMMANDED these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
...

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!' "

Furthermore, we read:

Romans 14:10-12 (KJV)

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (of the Messiah). 11 For it is written, 

"'As I live,' saith the LORD, 'every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.'"

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

[BeyondET]

On 6/20/2023 at 4:06 PM, The Barbarian said:

It's part of embryology.   Different genes get switched on and off in different tissues.

Development

2020 Jul 17;147(14)

Mechanisms of human embryo development: from cell fate to tissue shape and back

Marta N Shahbazi

Here, I discuss the evidence that supports a role for the crosstalk between cell fate and tissue shape during early human embryogenesis. This is a critical developmental period, when the body plan is laid out and many pregnancies fail. Dissecting the basic mechanisms that coordinate cell fate and tissue shape will generate an integrated understanding of early embryogenesis and new strategies for therapeutic intervention in early pregnancy loss.

If scientists didn't have any specimens of live butterflies and caterpillars, only had fossils of them to study. I don't think it would cross their minds that one becomes the other. Looking at fossils and dna, I think can have similar results not seeing the complete process in action from dirt to man the apex.

Edited June 23, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Look. It's very simple. The Repentant Thief was going to die that day, as soon as they broke his legs so he wouldn't be able to breathe, and he suffocated and was no longer a "soul" - an "air-breathing-creature." As soon as he died, he would await the RESURRECTION, but for him, it would still be "today." Have you ever been put under for an operation? When you awaken, it's like there's been no delay at all (except in trying to shake off the affect of the induced sleep)!

The current day is "today," the future is "tomorrow," and the past is "yesterday." But, when we move to a new day, our perspective moves with the time, and what was considered "tomorrow" is then "today!" Consider what Peter said about David, the great ... grandfather of Yeeshuwa`:

Acts 2:14-36 (KJV)

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,

"Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 "'"And it shall come to pass in the last days," saith God, "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."' (Joel 2:28-32).

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 "For David speaketh concerning him,

"'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.' (Psalm 16:8-11).

29 "MEN AND BRETHREN, LET ME FREELY SPEAK UNTO YOU OF THE PATRIARCH DAVID, THAT HE IS BOTH DEAD AND BURIED, AND HIS SEPULCHRE IS WITH US UNTO THIS DAY. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before(hand) spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 "For DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS: but he saith himself,

"'The LORD (YHWH the Father) said unto my Lord (Adoniy, David's Sire, the Messiah),

"'"Sit thou on my right hand, 35 UNTIL I MAKE THY FOES THY FOOTSTOOL."'

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (the One Anointed to be King)."

And, as far as timing goes, Peter said this AFTER the Resurrection of Yeeshuwa` and AFTER His ascension.

So, why would Yeeshuwa` take the Repentant Thief to Heaven but not His own great, great, ... grandfather King David?

Actually, it's quite the other way around! You don't know the struggle it's been to dislodge the belief in some ethereal "Heaven" out there somewhere! It is a common FALLACY to believe that "Jesus is going to come back, destroy the earth, and take us all to Heaven!" That stance is SO against God's Word!

Think about it: Why should God lose ANY of His Creation? Is haSatan going to win at all? NO! He REDEEMS His Creation and renews it!

Romans 8:18-25 (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

A pastor friend of mine once said that the outline of the Bible is ...

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from what is to what ought to be - Genesis 4-Revelation 22

Do a comparison sometime between Genesis 1 and 2 and Revelation 21 and 22, and see how much of the original Creation is restored in Revelation 21 and 22!

It is what Randy Alcorn called "Christoplatonism" to believe that "the physical is bad and the spiritual is good." God CREATED the physical and called it "very good!"

I DO believe Yeeshuwa`! What I DON'T believe is how Christians these days have TWISTED His words to make Him out to be saying something HE NEVER SAID! He NEVER said to anticipate "going to Heaven when we die!" We are to anticipate the "BLESSED HOPE" - the Return of the Messiah with His holy messengers to RESURRECT THE DEAD and begin His reign on the earth FOREVER!

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 And he shall reign OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

This is what being the "Messiah" or being the "Christ" is all about! He is GOD'S CHOICE for Israel's King! Yeeshuwa` is not the King of the Universe, as some have claimed. The Father has that well in hand; Yeeshuwa` will be the King of the EARTH! That's what "King of kings" means! It means that He shall be the World Emperor! the first Emperor of the WHOLE earth! That is what Paul is describing in the Resurrection chapter (keeping in mind that the context is about the resurrections)!

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest (obvious) that he (GOD) is excepted, which (who) did put all things under him (the Christ). 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, that is the progression that shall occur as the Messiah reigns for the first 1,000 years of His reign: He will reign over His Kingdom of Israel first, and He will add vassal countries under His rule as they are subdued and annexed to His Empire. It will take a thousand years to get the job done, but He shall become the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. Then, He shall turn over the Empire to His Father and continue to reign over the house of Ya`aqov forever!

THIS is what Yeeshuwa` said:

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (brightness; fame):"

Luke 19:11-15, 26-27 (KJV)

 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A CERTAIN NOBLEMAN (HIMSELF) WENT INTO A FAR COUNTRY TO RECEIVE FOR HIMSELF A KINGDOM, AND TO RETURN. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM, THEN HE COMMANDED these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
...

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!' "

Furthermore, we read:

Romans 14:10-12 (KJV)

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (of the Messiah). 11 For it is written, 

"'As I live,' saith the LORD, 'every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.'"

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

On the day that Jesus took his last breath. Who's hands did his spirit go to and where was those hands?

Jesus says as well, I tell you the truth, meant that day in paradise. Not a promise to keep his soul in a comatose state.

There is no delay because you are unconscious not dead. Your subconscious mind never sleeps.

Edited June 23, 2023 by BeyondET

[The Barbarian]

3 hours ago, BeyondET said:

If scientists didn't have any specimens of live butterflies and caterpillars, only had fossils of them to study. I don't think it would cross their minds that one becomes the other.

Transitional forms of metamorphysis, genetics, and embryology would also show what goes on.   But we often don't know much about extinct groups.

[The Barbarian]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Look. It's very simple. The Repentant Thief was going to die that day, as soon as they broke his legs so he wouldn't be able to breathe, and he suffocated and was no longer a "soul" - an "air-breathing-creature." As soon as he died, he would await the RESURRECTION, but for him, it would still be "today." Have you ever been put under for an operation? When you awaken, it's like there's been no delay at all (except in trying to shake off the affect of the induced sleep)!

The current day is "today," the future is "tomorrow," and the past is "yesterday." But, when we move to a new day, our perspective moves with the time, and what was considered "tomorrow" is then "today!"

Why not just believe Jesus the way He said it?    If you have to build a mound of excuses for why you think He didn't mean what He said, isn't that a clue?

 

[Retrobyter]

57 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

On the day that Jesus took his last breath. Who's hands did his spirit go to and where was those hands?

Jesus says as well, I tell you the truth, meant that day in paradise. Not a promise to keep his soul in a comatose state.

There is no delay because you are unconscious not dead. Your subconscious mind never sleeps.

Shalom, BeyondET.

I know MY subconscious mind never sleeps! But, I wasn't talking about "subconscious"; I was referring to "unconscious." There IS a difference. Death is an "unconscious" state.

Look, we're talking definitions here, and I've discovered that we don't HAVE a body; we ARE a body! There's a song from the seventies and eighties I've recently pulled out of the archives that's entitled "I'll Have a New Body," but the truth is, for me, the song is entitled wrongly. It should be "I'll BE a New Body!"

Being EXACT in one's understanding of a verse or passage of Scripture is CRUCIAL to avoid a later contradiction in the network of what one believes. How else can you make a "Statement of Faith" without some point contradicting another point?

When one studies Genesis 2:7 (the creation of Man) and John 1:14 (the "becoming" of Yeeshuwa`) together, one comes to realize that the Man IS the body. He didn't HAVE a body.

"God puffed into the MAN'S nostrils the puff of living things, and the MAN (NOT the "body of the Man") became a living air-breathing creature!" THAT'S what the Hebrew of Genesis 2:7 says.

When the Word BECAME flesh, He was NOT "incarnated." That word "incarnated" means "to be put into flesh." That's NOT what the verse says! John 1:14 says that "the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us!"

The point in common between these two passages is that the BODY IS the person! It doesn't just BELONG to the person. One can confirm this by looking at the wording of Adam's death: Did his body die or did HE die?

Genesis 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Now, complicate this with the word "spirit" ("pneuma" in Greek, "ruwach" in Hebrew). What does the word mean? It means a "WIND" or when referring to a person, his or her "BREATH!" The word "pneuma" is also translated as "ghost" in the KJV. When one "gives up the ghost," it means that he "breathes his last breath!" He EXPIRES, which is from the Latin meaning to "breathe out." His breath goes OUT of his body and does not return. He no longer inhales, and the body ceases to function.

When Yeeshuwa` died on the cross, what He said was recorded in Greek as "Πάτερ, εἰς χεῖράς σου παραθήσομαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου." This is transliterated as "Pater, eis cheiras sou paratheesomai to pneuma mou." Translated word-for-word, it is "Father, into hands of-you I-set-before/I-entrust-to/I-deposit-with the breath of-me." He was turning His breath over to His Father, the ONLY ONE who could return it to Him!

Then, you also asked, "where were those hands?" To that I would ask, "Where AREN'T those 'hands'?" Do we believe that God is omnipresent or don't we? I do, because Psalm 139:7-12 tells me He is omnipresent. Since when is He restricted to some place called "Heaven?"

And, what does the word "heaven" mean, anyway? "Heaven" comes from the Greek word "ouranos" and the Hebrew word "shaamayim." "Ouranos" means the "sky." "Shaamayim" is a DUAL word meaning the "skies," as in the daytime "sky" and the nighttime "sky." They are both where the birds fly and where weather occurs. They both talk about our earth's ATMOSPHERE.

For anything beyond the atmosphere/sky, Hebrew uses the phrase "shmeey-hashaamayim," which means "the heaven of heavens," or the "expanse of the expanses." Greek attaches the prefix "epi-" to the word to form "epouranios" meaning "of or belonging to above the sky." Both of these words refer to "outer space" or more simply, "space." It's where the sun, moon, and stars exist, according to 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. According to Hebrews 12:28, it's where the New Jerusalem currently resides while it is still under construction, and what better place for the growth of crystals than out in space?!

Yeeshuwa` didn't go to some "Heaven" the day that He died; so, how could He be with the Repentant Thief in THAT "park?" He went to "sh'owl" or "sheol" as most people write the word. It's actually the grave or tomb or mausoleum. It's where people go to pay their respects and where children "ASK" about their loved one who died.

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Why not just believe Jesus the way He said it?    If you have to build a mound of excuses for why you think He didn't mean what He said, isn't that a clue?

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Because He didn't say it the way you're saying He said it! As far as a "mound of excuses," look at how many centuries of ridiculous notions there are to overcome! YOU'RE not convinced, yet; so, obviously I haven't yet said the right word combination to get through to you!

The disconnect between the future earth and "Heaven" is DIRECTLY TIED to the misunderstandings of the past earth. If you can't see the world before the Flood as probably the finest environment this planet has ever had, then you won't translate that to the future environment of the New Earth!

We don't need to go elsewhere; we just need a repaired earth!

[The Barbarian]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Why not just believe Jesus the way He said it?    If you have to build a mound of excuses for why you think He didn't mean what He said, isn't that a clue?

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Because He didn't say it the way you're saying He said it!

I just quoted Him.   He said "today", not "someday."  He said "in paradise", not "in some future remodeled Earth."

Just accept it His way, and it will cease to trouble you.

 

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

If you can't see the world before the Flood as probably the finest environment this planet has ever had, then you won't translate that to the future environment of the New Earth!

You're trying to convert the flood of Noah into a global flood.   Won't work.   It's neither scripturally accurate, nor does the evidence show it.   Don't try to add things to scripture.