truth7t7 Posted January 31, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Michael37 said: Those cross-references and their contexts don't settle the matter in favour of the saints only being the two witnesses and only them. Look at who else the beast puts to death: Rev 20:4 (4) Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The scripture below is an exact duplicate, you think this is by coincidence, absolutely not, the reader is being informed they are one and the same We Disagree Revelation 11:7KJV 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 13:7KJV 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Edited January 31, 2023 by truth7t7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah7 Posted January 31, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,610 Content Per Day: 2.43 Reputation: 3,182 Days Won: 11 Joined: 05/25/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2023 23 hours ago, AdHoc said: Revelation 3:9-13KJV 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Hi AdHoc … What then is the hour of temptation that the Philadelphia church escapes? It’s that "hour” when Satan is here as the Antichrist claiming to be the Messiah. It means that those with the seal of God in their “foreheads” who have abided in His Word and are Gospel-armored up will not find Satan tempting. Not only that, Christ instructs Satan not to hurt us. This reminds me of the plagues that God rained down on Pharaoh in the book of Exodus: Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still, Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel. - Exodus 9:1-4 (KJV) Notice the parallel in the book of Revelation: And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. - Revelation 9:4 (KJV) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted January 31, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,051 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2023 4 hours ago, truth7t7 said: "We Disagree", The Lord Will Protect The Church On Earth During The Hour Of Earth's Temptation, Just As The Hebrews Were Protected In The Egyptian Passover Jesus Is The Lord Isaiah 26:20-21KJV 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Yes. We disagree. But you quote a scripture as your argument and when I address that proffered verse and show what the grammar means, you discard the debate. This, of course, is your right, but then my argument stands. As to your counter using the Passover, the whole company of the seven Churches have taken Christ as their Passover, otherwise they would not be addressed as the "Ekklesia". The Passover is because of the "Lamb of God". I John 1:29 you will notice that the problem solved by the Lamb is "the sin (singular) of the world". Our Lord Jesus is then the "Sin-Offering". The problem of our sins (plural) is taken care of in 1st John 2.2. There, our Lord is the Trespass Offering. No Christian is threatened because of his "sin" (nature). The threat of retribution at the Bema is our TRESPASSES - that which "we have DONE in our bodies". Added to this, your example fails because the Lamb of Egypt ONLY PERTAINS TO THE FIRST-BORN. Let me point out something that applies to both of us. On this Forum, and in your Christian life at home, the Lord gives us light on a subject. God expects us to embrace this new light and revise our understanding. In the Bible there are many examples of men who received light and refused to embrace it. Romans Chapter 1 calls it "holding the truth in unrighteousness". God will graciously give us this light a few times and then, if we continue to refuse a good argument, or a plain statement, He reverses the light and adds darkness (vs.18-28). God makes the promise of giving a man over to a "reprobate mind" - and He keeps His word. If either one of us produces a reasonable argument, we had BOTH better consider it. God bless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted January 31, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,051 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2023 34 minutes ago, Selah7 said: Hi AdHoc … What then is the hour of temptation that the Philadelphia church escapes? It’s that "hour” when Satan is here as the Antichrist claiming to be the Messiah. It means that those with the seal of God in their “foreheads” who have abided in His Word and are Gospel-armored up will not find Satan tempting. Not only that, Christ instructs Satan not to hurt us. This reminds me of the plagues that God rained down on Pharaoh in the book of Exodus: Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still, Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel. - Exodus 9:1-4 (KJV) Notice the parallel in the book of Revelation: And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. - Revelation 9:4 (KJV) Good argument. But the Tribes of Israel of Revelation 7 are not the Church. In Romans 11, to wards the close of the Chapter, God predicts that Isral will remain blinded and hardened till the end of the age. Note the language. It ends with God (not me) "CONCLUDING them ALL in UNBELIEF". Verse 32 ends with Israel getting mercy WITHOUT BELIEVING. So we must ask; "On what basis does Israel receive mercy". The answer is even though faith fails, THEY STILL HAVE A COVENANT! And so after reciting the curses of breaking the Law in Deuteronomy 28, God recites the terms on which Israel will be restored NATIONALLY in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. They must return to what Moses was reciting "that day". And "that day" he was reciting the LAW. Now, God is not naive. He knew that Israel would remain hardened and blind till Jesus burst out of the clouds over the mount of Olives. So He put His backup plan into action - THE REMNANT. God is prepared to accept a REMNANT as a REPRESENTATIVE company - like 10 men for the salvation of Sodom. The 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel is that REMNANT predicted in Romans 9 and 11. They still refuse Christ, but they, like Ezra of old, they are zealous for the LAW. There is no rapture for them. There is no eternal life for them. There is no rebirth for them. But, as Zacharias in Luke Chapter 1 predicts, they will be restored AS A NATION. The Churches, all of them, are a totally different group. They are not sons of Jacob, but "sons of God". They have FAITH. Their sins are put away AND they posses eternal life - the divine nature. They have BELIEVED in Jesus and, like most Christians, can assume this salvation counts missing the Great Tribulation. 1st Thessalonians 5:9 all but says it. "By Jesus were NOT APPOINTED to God's wrath"! "NOT APPOINTED" is great, but "appointed" does not mean "guaranteed". Revelation 18:4 shows this in horrible terms. If you willingly join the camp of the enemy, the plagues meant for that camp will get you too. And FIVE of seven Churches have slid away. But Philadelphia did not slide away. They kept Christ's WORD over a long period of time. Now the time has come for the wrath of God on men. God has made a way for all Christians to miss the "TRIAL" that will come on "ALL" the earth. The trial is TWOFOLD; (i) It is God's wrath, and (ii) it is Satan's wrath. God was ready to save the Churches - but OOHHH - the majority has wandered over to the enemy's camp! The Rapture is primarily to move Christians out of the way of God's fierce wrath. It secondary purpose is for gathering the Church into the air to stand before the Bema and be judged. That is why 1st Thessalonians 4 and 1st Corinthians 15 have a TRUMPET. A trumpet is for gathering. Summary: - Israel's unbelief stays to the end of the age. They are still restored (Ezekiel 37) because a REMNANT returned to the Law in the face of the Beast (Deut.30:1-5). - SO that this REMNANT survives God's wrath they are "sealed". - The Church believed and are born again. Christ's death is enough to not only save from Gehenna, but also from God's wrath on men. - God designs an escape but attaches a condition - you must be in good standing with Him. If you change to the camp of the enemy, you will miss this escape. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted January 31, 2023 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 243 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,975 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,894 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, truth7t7 said: The scripture below is an exact duplicate, you think this is by coincidence, absolutely not, the reader is being informed they are one and the same We Disagree Revelation 11:7KJV 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 13:7KJV 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. A duplicate is an exact copy, which those verses aren't. The two witnesses aren't specified in 13:7, so no, the verses are not duplicates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steward George Posted January 31, 2023 Group: Steward Followers: 110 Topic Count: 10,465 Topics Per Day: 1.25 Content Count: 27,783 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 15,482 Days Won: 129 Joined: 06/30/2001 Status: Online Birthday: 09/21/1971 Steward Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: What about Noah, born roughly 70 years after Enoch was taken? For 600 years, Noah also witnessed everything occurring in the pre-deluge world. According to the book of Jasher, Chapter 5, Noah married Enoch's daughter "Naamah". Personally, I think one of the witnesses is Enoch as he was the "lawgiver" before Moses. According to the book of Jasher, all the kings of the earth submitted to his understanding and holiness. What's interesting is it's recorded that Enoch taught them, and as he grew in the Lord, he went from teaching them daily, then it was reduced to one day a week he taught. Then one day a month, then one day a year ... as he separated himself from teaching men and sought God with all that he had. It was said that men couldn't look upon Enoch's face because the glory shone on him so much. If Enoch is an object lesson, he did more by doing less ... and seeking God more! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steward George Posted February 1, 2023 Group: Steward Followers: 110 Topic Count: 10,465 Topics Per Day: 1.25 Content Count: 27,783 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 15,482 Days Won: 129 Joined: 06/30/2001 Status: Online Birthday: 09/21/1971 Steward Share Posted February 1, 2023 Just a tidbit of information, there are some who do KNOW their God and will suffer death. Not everyone is "escaping" the wrath. From Scripture ... Dan 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate. [Matthew 24 reference] Dan 11:32 He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. Dan 11:33 And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder. Dan 11:34 When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, Dan 11:35 and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time. Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. So it's safe to say that the Bible is clear that blood bought Saints who love the Lord and the Word of God will be martyred for their faith. Be blessed, George 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted February 1, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: On this Forum, and in your Christian life at home, the Lord gives us light on a subject. God expects us to embrace this new light and revise our understanding. It appears you are having a hard time following your own words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted February 1, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 4 hours ago, George said: Just a tidbit of information, there are some who do KNOW their God and will suffer death. Not everyone is "escaping" the wrath. From Scripture ... Dan 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate. [Matthew 24 reference] Dan 11:32 He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. Dan 11:33 And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder. Dan 11:34 When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery, Dan 11:35 and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time. Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. So it's safe to say that the Bible is clear that blood bought Saints who love the Lord and the Word of God will be martyred for their faith. Be blessed, George I Agree George, God Will Prepare His Martyrs 1 Corinthians 1:13KJV 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted February 1, 2023 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 243 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,975 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,894 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted February 1, 2023 41 minutes ago, truth7t7 said: I Agree George, God Will Prepare His Martyrs 1 Corinthians 1:13KJV 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Hebrews 11 anyone? Also Revelation 12:7 ". . . and they loved not their lives unto death". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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