Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

8 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yes.  God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree.   He ate, but he lived on physically for many years thereafter.   This is how we know it was a spiritual, not a physical death.    Adam was never physically immortal, as God notes at the end of Genesis 3, making sure that he would not become so.

 

You ignored the point I made. Scripture says death came through Adam. That means it DIDNT exist before Adam. When Adam sinned, that caused death to enter the world. If he hadn't eaten,  death wouldn't have ever come. Therefore He and Eve and all animals were immortal. God was only concerned about them eating from the tree of life AFTER they sinned. They died spiritually at that moment and physically later. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by TrueFollowerOfChrist
Accidently incomplete.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

You ignored the point I made. Scripture says death came through Adam.

Yes.   As you see, God says it was a spiritual death and that Adam was not immortal.

Your assumption that they were is not scriptural.   You aren't losing your salvation for not accepting His word on this, but you are wrong.

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

10 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yes.   As you see, God says it was a spiritual death and that Adam was not immortal.

Your assumption that they were is not scriptural.   You aren't losing your salvation for not accepting His word on this, but you are wrong.

 

I feel like we are going in circles here, so this will probably be my last response. The death was spiritual AND physical. Nowhere did God say that death would be instant. It was like a disease. He died instantly spiritually but then the slow process of aging and decay began so that he died physically much later. He died both ways, just not at the same time. Death could not exist until sin existed. Just as in the future state, death wont exist because sin wont exist. You haven't shown me to be wrong. There is no scripture that says he ONLY died spiritually, and obviously he died physically like I've said. You are actually attempting to use your own opinions to claim I'm wrong, but no scriptures contradict anything I have said. 

 

Also, I am already saved and I can't lose my salvation. But that's a topic for another thread. 

[The Barbarian]

42 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

feel like we are going in circles here, so this will probably be my last response. The death was spiritual AND physical. Nowhere did God say that death would be instant.

God said it would happen the day Adam ate from the tree.   But Adam lived on physically for many years.   So we have two choices:

1. God was wrong to say that.

2. The death He meant was not physical.

Take your choice.

 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Barbarian

I must beg to differ here( there is the 3rd option) because in Gen 2:17 the Hebrew idiom means( for certain )the death process began immediately the moment or the day Adam ate of it.Just because he did not drop dead physically he was just as dead as dead could be both spiritually and physically 

The language was written that way and we can compare it throughout Genesis and the Old Testament - God is never wrong,it's our interpretation that's inaccurate

The expression that means(it is certain) is consistent as we see the same in Exodus 10:28 and 1 Kings 2:37.  .

That day his death sentence was certain and began. ..

Be Blessed

[The Barbarian]

God said it would be the day he ate from the tree.   But the Bible makes it clear that he did not die physically that day.

Genesis 5:5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died

So the Bible tells us that Adam's physical death was over 900 years later.

[kwikphilly]

T

2 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

God said it would be the day he ate from the tree.   But the Bible makes it clear that he did not die physically that day.

Genesis 5:5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died

So the Bible tells us that Adam's physical death was over 900 years later.

Blessings Barbarian

Absolutely right and 930 yrs later that absolute and certain end of his physical being came because of the death sentence that began on the day God Said it would👍

[Retrobyter]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:08 PM, The Barbarian said:

Yes.  God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree.   He ate, but he lived on physically for many years thereafter.   This is how we know it was a spiritual, not a physical death.    Adam was never physically immortal, as God notes at the end of Genesis 3, making sure that he would not become so.

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Sorry, my brother, but that's not right. He DID die physically that day! His cells began to die and decay, and their growth, was finally exceeded by the death and decay when he reached the age of 930.

Genesis 2:15-17 (KJV)

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The Hebrew of the last clause is ...

כִּ֗י בְּיֹ֛ום אֲכָלְךָ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מֹ֥ות תָּמֽוּת

This transliterates to ...

Kiy byowm 'akhaalkhaa mimmennuw mowt taamowt.

Translated word-for-word this becomes ...

For in-day you-(singular)-eat from-it to-die you-(singular)-shall-die.

And, when we actually see the sin and the punishment, we read,

Genesis 3:17-20 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life (Hebrew: kol ymeey chayyeykhaa = "all days of-your-[singular]-life"); 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

20 And Adam called his wife's name "Eve" (Hebrew: Chavvaah = "life" feminine, singular); because she was the mother of all living (Hebrew: 'eem kaal-chaay = "mother of-all-living").

The Hebrew of the last highlighted portion of verse 19 is ...

עַ֤ד שֽׁוּבְךָ֙ אֶל־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה כִּ֥י מִמֶּ֖נָּה לֻקָּ֑חְתָּ כִּֽי־עָפָ֣ר אַ֔תָּה וְאֶל־עָפָ֖ר תָּשֽׁוּב

This transliterates to ...

`ad shuwVkhaa 'el-haa'adaamaah kiy mimmennaah luqqaachtaa kiy-`aafaar 'ataah v'el-`aafaar taashuwV

This translates word-for-word to ...

until you-(singular)-return to-the-red-(ground) for from-it you-were-taken for-dust you-[are] and to-dust you-(singular)-shall-return.

Then, we read of Adam's final death in Genesis 5:5:

Genesis 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name "Adam," (Hebrew: אָדָ֔ם, "'aadaam" = "red") in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty (130) years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred (800) years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty (930) years: and he died.

The last word of verse 5 is "וַיָּמֹֽת" vayyaamot, meaning "and-he-died."

As a person ages, his cells go through mitosis over and over again. It is calculated that a person has a new set of cells every 7 years, being systematically replaced cell by cell.  When a child is young, the growth of the cells exceeds the death of the cells, and a person grows up - matures! At maturity, the cell-destruction and cell-production are fairly evenly balanced. However, as one approaches old age, his cells will begin to die faster than they are replaced. Eventually, organs being to deteriorate until they fail. As the organs begin to shut down, the person ultimately dies from old age. I have witnessed this first-hand in the death of my own physical father. He fought it with every ounce of strength until the end, but ultimately, death overcame him, and the doctor came in and pronounced him "dead."

This is nothing new. It's been going on since Adam, and actually, Hevel ("Abel") before him!

We don't read of Adam's death until Genesis 5:5, but we read of Hevel's death in Genesis 4:8. But, this occurred AFTER God pronounced the penalty of death on Adam.

Hevel and Qayin ("Abel" and "Cain") were genetic products of Adam (the name of both the male and the female). It reminds me of the phrase "he (Leviy) was yet in the loins of his ancestor (Avraham)." (Hebrews 7:10) Thus, they had the same chromosomes as had their parents, just in a different mix! And, the same was true about their later brother, Shet ("Seth"). Thus, we read,

Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The death of Adam still reigns in all of us as mortal bodies! Therefore, there was NO human death before Adam was created and sinned, but with the disoebedience, sin entered and death is the wages (the paycheck) for that sin, even before the Law came and made them culpable for that sin.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See, this is a NECESSARY understanding for how God was able to justify individuals through His Messiah - His Christ - Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus")! The philosophy of Evolution teaches that man existed in some form before Adam sinned, and that creatures died LONG before Adam was made! Thus, this philosophy puts "the cart before the horse!"

[The Barbarian]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, my brother, but that's not right. He DID die physically that day!

God says otherwise:

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
 

John 4:14  but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.

Here, Jesus is speaking of the spiritual, not the physical.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by The Barbarian

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God says otherwise:

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Here's the Hebrew of Genesis 5:5:

וַיִּֽהְי֞וּ כָּל־יְמֵ֤י אָדָם֙ אֲשֶׁר־חַ֔י תְּשַׁ֤ע מֵאֹות֙ שָׁנָ֔ה וּשְׁלֹשִׁ֖ים שָׁנָ֑ה וַיָּמֹֽת׃ ס

And, yet, you conveniently forget that we also read of God saying,

Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF thou shalt surely die."

And, here's the Hebrew of Genesis 2:17:

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ הַדַּ֙עַת֙ טֹ֣וב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ כִּ֗י בְּיֹ֛ום אֲכָלְךָ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מֹ֥ות תָּמֽוּת׃

"... IN-[THE]-DAY you-eat from-it SURELY you-shall-die."

God doesn't lie! Nor, does He make embellishments to make a point, as humans do!

It's really very simple to me; Adam started to die by degrees the day he ate from the tree! When he finally succumbed to death, we read in Genesis 5:5 "vayyaamot," "and he died." The vav prefix means "and," and the word "yaamot" is "he died", 3rd-person, masculine, singular of the Qal Consecutive Imperfect form of "מוּת" "muwt!"

His death was a PROCESS, as is everyone's.