The End of this Age

[OneLight]

42 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Here's something I've wondered over the years.  After the rapture, I believe there will be many who do come to Christ between the rapture and the GWT Judgment.  What is said about them in scripture?  When will they be judged or receive their glorified bodies?  I don't believe all Christians will be killed by Satan before Jesus return, so what about them?  Will they be any who become His during the millennium?  If so, what about them?

Scripture is silent on this, so I wonder if we also should accept that not all questions have answers in scripture? 

The Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (Only) > The Millennial Kingdom (Includes unbelievers who make it alive through the tribulation) > The Great White Throne Judgement (Only for the dead).

You quote my post, yet you do not speak to the questions I raised.  Care to try again?

 

[kenny2212]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

When do you think the Bema and the GWT judgment will occur?  

If you think the Bema occurs when the GWT does, please explain why all believers will have 1,000 years serving/reigning with the King before they are rewarded.

Thanks.

I think the bema judgement will take place after the rapture. Like the sheep and goat judgement, (only in its privacy, it'll be a public occasion; seen by only heavenly spectators though). The bema judgement is a "service" judgement. Only for clergy. Different from the after death "life review" everyone has to go through.

The GWT Judgement takes place after the millennial kingdom.

The bema jugdement occurs after the rapture, the GWT judgement occurs after the millennial kingdom. Thanks.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

Let's take a look.  We see in the scripture below that the only ones who will reign with Christ for the 1000 years are those who were beheaded for not following the beast.  No mention of anyone else reigning with Christ during that time, but then, when Satan attacks after being bound for the 1000 years, we read about the saints also.  Where did these saints come from if they are not new believers?

Revelation 20:4-10

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Well, not the only ones.  You missed the verse I quoted:  1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

It should be obvious that "those who belong to Him" include ALL believers, not just some group.  John didn't need to mention ALL believers, since his point was those who were faithful (martyrs) which will reign with Him.

Paul said this:

2 Tim 2:12 -  if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Rom 8:17b - co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I underlined the verses that speak of the priests, saints and the beloved city.  I just can't fathom how, over a period of 1000 years, nobody will turn to follow Christ.

I appreciate what we "can't fathom", but we need to let Scripture speak for itself, and not put our own feelings into it.  Obviously we can't fathom ALL of Scripture.  In fact, God did not intend to inform us of all the facts that are out there.

Point being, at the 2nd Advent, all believers are resurrected.  That is more than clear.  And there is only 1 resurrection of believers, so that takes care of Rev 20:4.  John didn't need to mention the unfaithful believers, since his point was those who had been faithful;  the ones who will reign with Him.

The Bible is clear that there will be ONE resurrection for the saved.  So, since it will occur "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent, as 1 Cor 15:23 says, there are no more saved people to resurrect, and the Bible doesn't speak of any other resurrection.

Throughout Revelation, we read of unbelievers that REFUSE to repent (Rev 16:9,11).  By the end of the Tribulation, all surviving unbelievers will be SO resentful over all the wrath that God poured on the earth, they will refuse to believe.  Matt 5 gives us a glimpse of the MK, where King Jesus will hold people accountable to the spirit of the law, and not just the letter of the law.  That will also further antagonize the people.

Which is why the Bible says Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron".  Does it make sense for the King to have to rule with this rod of iron for saved people?  Not to me.

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

If you consider during what stage of the process this is talking about, it may become clearer.  This is when Christ returns and defeats the Beast and his armies.  Through this judgment, it is clear He is judging and ruling with a rod of iron.

When the King returns to earth, He hasn't even begun to rule.  He first destroys all the armies gathered at Armageddon, then sets up His MK.  And then begins to rule with a rod of iron.

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

Not sure why you would include all resurrected believers in your post, as the only resurrected believers spoken of during the millennium are those who were killed for not following the beast, nor took his mark.

I was quoting from 1 Cor 15:23, where "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".  That's the 2nd Advent.  So ALL believers will be resurrected at the 2nd Advent.  That's why I included ALL believers.  Because the Bible does.

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

I've heard some say that there will be no death or newborns during the millennium.  Are you suggesting the same, as I don't believe this is true.  I also reject the possibility that nobody will accept Jesus during this time.  This is why I see the probability that more will be going on than what is in scripture when it comes to believers after the rapture.

Nope.  I have no idea of all the details of the MK.  I know the lion and lamb will lie down together.  But that's the animal kingdom, not the human kingdom.  They will need to be ruled with a rod of iron.

It's very possible and probable that the mortal surviving unbelievers will continue to have children.  Even the Bible notes there will be children.  And the process of aging is also mentioned.  

While it can't be argued that "more will be going on than what is in Scripture", the fact is that we don't have all the details.  I prefer not to speculate on the "what if's".

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

I think the bema judgement will take place after the rapture. Like the sheep and goat judgement, (only in its privacy, it'll be a public occasion; seen by only heavenly spectators though). The bema judgement is a "service" judgement. Only for clergy. Different from the after death "life review" everyone has to go through.

The GWT Judgement takes place after the millennial kingdom.

The bema jugdement occurs after the rapture, the GWT judgement occurs after the millennial kingdom. Thanks.

Lots of talk about a "rapture".  I was raised a pretrib rapturist, but when I learned from the Bible that there is just one resurrection and it occurs "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent, I realized that there will not be any glorified trip to heaven.  So I don't use the word "rapture" but resurrection, since that is what 1 Thess 4:13-17 describes.

I agree that the Bema will occur after the defeat of the armies at Armageddon.  Jesus will have all believers from all time resurrected/glorified.  A perfect time to award the eternal rewardes.  However, not for only clergy, but every believer, as Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:10.  It is a service judgment for all believers.

[OneLight]

47 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, not the only ones.  You missed the verse I quoted:  1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

It should be obvious that "those who belong to Him" include ALL believers, not just some group.  John didn't need to mention ALL believers, since his point was those who were faithful (martyrs) which will reign with Him.

Paul said this:

2 Tim 2:12 -  if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Rom 8:17b - co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory

1 Corinthians 15:23 has nothing to do with the 1000 year reign, but His second coming.  The two events are separate.  You will notice in the fullness of that passage, the millennium is not even mention.  In fact, the 1000 years is skipped over, meaning this is not about that time frame at all, but the life in Christ we have been given and how it will all become complete after Death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, when everything is turned over to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

As for 2 Timothy 2:12, Paul is teaching about salvation, not the 1000 year reign.  The same goes for Romans 8:17. 

Revelation 20:4-10  speaks about a very specific time and people.  While reading and discussing the book of Revelation, we need to first most keep this verse in mind ...

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

There is always room for the imagination to wander when we contemplate prophecy, but don't threat your imagination as truth, but just speculation, which it is.

 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

1 Corinthians 15:23 has nothing to do with the 1000 year reign, but His second coming.  The two events are separate.

Yes, the verse is about the Second Advent AND the resurrection of all believers.  There's no way to avoid that fact.  So it DOES relate to the MK, because it occurs before the MK.

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

  You will notice in the fullness of that passage, the millennium is not even mention.  In fact, the 1000 years is skipped over, meaning this is not about that time frame at all, but the life in Christ we have been given and how it will all become complete after Death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, when everything is turned over to the Father.

Uh, what verse/passage are you thinking about?  I mentioned Rev 20, which is RICH in the number 1,000.

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

As for 2 Timothy 2:12, Paul is teaching about salvation, not the 1000 year reign.  The same goes for Romans 8:17.

I strongly disagree.  in 2 Tim and Rom 8:17 the subject is "reigning with Christ", which IS the MK and "sharing in His glory", which also IS the MK.  

Absolutely not about salvation.  It's about believers who "endure" and "share in His sufferings", which are basically the same thing.  Those who endure will suffer.

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

Revelation 20:4-10  speaks about a very specific time and people.  While reading and discussing the book of Revelation, we need to first most keep this verse in mind ...

It speaks directly of martyrs "reigning with Christ", an obvious reference to the MK.

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

There is always room for the imagination to wander when we contemplate prophecy, but don't threat your imagination as truth, but just speculation, which it is.

I haven't privided ANY imagination or speculation.  It's all straightforward.

[OneLight]

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I appreciate what we "can't fathom", but we need to let Scripture speak for itself, and not put our own feelings into it.  Obviously we can't fathom ALL of Scripture.  In fact, God did not intend to inform us of all the facts that are out there.

Point being, at the 2nd Advent, all believers are resurrected.  That is more than clear.  And there is only 1 resurrection of believers, so that takes care of Rev 20:4.  John didn't need to mention the unfaithful believers, since his point was those who had been faithful;  the ones who will reign with Him.

Yes, we do need to allow scripture to speak for itself, while not amending scripture with our personal theology when it does not.  That's when feelings and mans theology comes into play.

When you mention Revelation 20:4, you include "unfaithful believers".  Why are you including such a group when discussing what I said as I never once used such terminology?  You are confusing me, as if adding to my words something I never said or indicated.  I sure do hope this is not the case, but perhaps a misunderstanding.  All who will reign with Christ were faithful unto death.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible is clear that there will be ONE resurrection for the saved.  So, since it will occur "when He comes" at the 2nd Advent, as 1 Cor 15:23 says, there are no more saved people to resurrect, and the Bible doesn't speak of any other resurrection.

Throughout Revelation, we read of unbelievers that REFUSE to repent (Rev 16:9,11).  By the end of the Tribulation, all surviving unbelievers will be SO resentful over all the wrath that God poured on the earth, they will refuse to believe.  Matt 5 gives us a glimpse of the MK, where King Jesus will hold people accountable to the spirit of the law, and not just the letter of the law.  That will also further antagonize the people.

Which is why the Bible says Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron".  Does it make sense for the King to have to rule with this rod of iron for saved people?  Not to me.

So, according to what you take from scripture, the reign of Christ is fruitless, nobody get saved in 1000 years?  Why will the Father, who sent His Son to die for our sins, not able to reach anyone in 1000 years?  When one eliminates the purpose of salvation they eliminate the reason Christ came.  The picture you paint is an ugly one where nobody is ever happy again, which I cannot agree with.  The rapture happens before His return, but is not written in such a way that states once that happens there is not going to be anyone saved.  That, my friend, is faulty logic as it goes against everything God is.

Your reference to Revelation 16 is still within this time frame, before Christ returns.  It does not refer to what will take place during the millennium, and should not be applied to the millennium.  There is nothing ever written that claims no new babies will be born during the millennium either, that only those who survived the tribulation will be the only people alive for 1000 years, though there is a group that does teach this falsely.

Not everyone who lives during the millennium will be saved and not all nations will ahead to how Jesus reigns.  They reject Him and His ways, which is why Satan can muster such a large group when he is released from the bottomless pit for a season, but that does not mean some will follow Jesus.  You =make it an all or nothing, black and while picture, when we are not told one way or another what will actually take place.  That is the reason why it still remains a question for me as scripture is silent.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When the King returns to earth, He hasn't even begun to rule.  He first destroys all the armies gathered at Armageddon, then sets up His MK.  And then begins to rule with a rod of iron.

When Jesus returns, He returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, bring His judgment and Rule with Him.  The second He returns all is taking place.  There is no pause in anything as He sets up His kingdom.  That is mans theory because that is how man would have to accomplish such a task, taking time to go from war to rule.  Here is what scripture tells us in Revelation 19:11-16.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

You will not find a pause in scripture where Jesus needs to set up His kingdom.

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 20-

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

1 Cor 15:23 -  But eachin turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, 1 Cor 15:23 establishes the fact that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent.

And that is shown in the end of Rev 19.  So the martyrs which are resurrected are a part of ALL believers who are resurrected "when He comes".

Rev 20:5 PROVES that the resurrection of the saved will be 1,000 years BEFORE the next resurrection, which will be for all the unsaved.  

The "rest of the dead" per Rev 20:5 refers to ALL unbelievers.  So there is a clear statement here about the space of time between the 2 resurrections.

So your "reading" of John 5:28,29 is in error.  

 

God's words before your eyes clearly show the resurrection of the (believers/life) and (unbelievers/damnation), and this takes place at "The Same Time"

"All That Are In The Graves Shall Hear His Voice, And Shall Come Forth"

You have nobody fooled into believing contrary to God's words of truth below, in false claims the resurrection of the saved believer and unsaved wicked below is 1,000 literal years apart

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Edited March 7, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

8 minutes ago, OneLight said:

When Jesus returns, He returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, bring His judgment and Rule with Him.  The second He returns all is taking place.  There is no pause in anything as He sets up His kingdom.  That is mans theory because that is how man would have to accomplish such a task, taking time to go from war to rule.  Here is what scripture tells us in Revelation 19:11-16.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

You will not find a pause in scripture where Jesus needs to set up His kingdom.

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.