Torah Questions (NOT Law vs Grace)

[NickyLouse]

[NickyLouse]

I have begun studying Torah commandments and I think I am going to have some questions that I would like to submit here. I'm hoping that there are mature individuals knowledgeable in Torah who can explain the questions I might have about what a commandment's purpose might be. For example: when Exodus 23:19 says not to cook a young goat in its mother's milk. What is the reason behind this command? It doesn't seem to have any moral significance, but maybe it does and I just don't see it. I will be going through Torah systematically.

Please do not try to convince me that the Old Covenant commands are not for me. I know Yeshua and how He submitted Himself to the Father on my behalf so that I might be reconciled to Him. He is the only means by which that is possible. There is nothing else required on my behalf so that I am declared justified. This is my belief and not the purpose of this thread. If it gets hijacked, I will erase it.

Edited March 27, 2023 by NickyLouse

[NickyLouse]

As Passover is approaching, the first question I have is about the lamb. Yeshua is our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7). Should we still roast lamb over fire? Or is this dishonoring Him? Ordinarily, we will eat some other meat at our Seder.

Another question surrounding this time of year is the Last Supper. Was it held on the erev 14Aviv with the crucifixion at noon that following day (also 14Aviv)? Matthew 26:17-19 says the disciples found the upper room on the first day of Unleavened. That would have been 15Aviv (Leviticus 23:5-6) and the meal eaten on erev 16Aviv. So, I am a little confused about that.

[NickyLouse]

3 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

Because Hashem forbids animal cruelty. Cooking an animal in its own mothers milk is both extremely cruel and extremely ghoulish.

Is there some other spiritual significance? Was that a common practice?

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom @NickyLouse

On 3/27/2023 at 1:05 AM, NickyLouse said:

I will be going through Torah systematically.

Awesome.  Is there a more honourable pilgrimage than this one?

On 3/27/2023 at 1:05 AM, NickyLouse said:

For example: when Exodus 23:19 says not to cook a young goat in its mother's milk. What is the reason behind this command?

You ask a hard question here.  It's baffled experts in Torah for many years.

Some say it's a commandment against cruelty and others say it's to keep Israel away from this pagan practice - they seem to be the most popular opinions.  I personally think there is something deeper behind this commandment but I haven't worked it out yet.

What I can say with some confidence is that the Jewish interpretation of "do not have meat with dairy together" is nonsense. See Genesis 18:8.

On 3/27/2023 at 2:01 AM, NickyLouse said:

Should we still roast lamb over fire? Or is this dishonoring Him?

Another good question.

Roasting a lamb over the fire is no disrespect to Yeshua.  But keep in mind, what you do is ceremonial only.  There is no need to put blood of the doorposts either of course.  Therefore, if you can roast a whole lamb and your whole household eat it and burn up the remnants before morning - brilliant - you've had an awesome Passover! However, if you only have a lamb steak on Passover, you also do well.  What if you only have beef?  Eat it with joy and be a peace on the Passover!  Each scenario is equal.  

We are all dispersed right now.  We are all sojourners.  We cannot sacrifice the Passover Lamb at the Temple, as ought to have been done, and rejoice before the Father in the Promised Land.  Those are just the very sad facts.   So the most important thing is that we memorialise the date the best we can and, when it comes to eating, eating unleavened bread and no yeast for 7 days.

On 3/27/2023 at 2:01 AM, NickyLouse said:

Another question surrounding this time of year is the Last Supper. Was it held on the erev 14Aviv with the crucifixion at noon that following day (also 14Aviv)? Matthew 26:17-19 says the disciples found the upper room on the first day of Unleavened. That would have been 15Aviv (Leviticus 23:5-6) and the meal eaten on erev 16Aviv. So, I am a little confused about that.

You ask another difficult question here.  One I cannot answer in short really.

In brief, their were two calendars in use in the first century. 

The Jewish calendar, which runs from evening to evening and reckons months by the moons.  This came in during the Hellenization period of the Jews about 160 year BC.  At that time, the chosen priesthood, the Zadokites, were expelled from the Temple and replaced with a man-elected priesthood - which ran to Yeshua's day.  They Zaodkites seem to have fled to a base in Qumran.

The Original calendar, which runs from morning to morning and reckons months by the sun.  This calendar was first detailed by Enoch.  From other sources in the dead sea scrolls, this was the calendar followed by Moses also.

Therefore, it's possible that the actual Passover day was observed by Yeshua, on the night before the Jews observed it according to their moon calendar.  

In the dead sea scrolls, in seems that the authors referred to those who follow the Jewish Calendar as the "sons of darkness" and the the Enoch Calendar as the "sons of light", which may give another angle to Paul's writing in 1 Thessalonians 5:5.

I hope something in my rambling has helped!

Shalom

[JohnD]

On 4/4/2023 at 5:35 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

On 3/26/2023 at 8:01 PM, NickyLouse said:

Another question surrounding this time of year is the Last Supper. Was it held on the erev 14Aviv with the crucifixion at noon that following day (also 14Aviv)? Matthew 26:17-19 says the disciples found the upper room on the first day of Unleavened. That would have been 15Aviv (Leviticus 23:5-6) and the meal eaten on erev 16Aviv. So, I am a little confused about that.

You ask another difficult question here.  One I cannot answer in short really.

In brief, their were two calendars in use in the first century. 

The Jewish calendar, which runs from evening to evening and reckons months by the moons.  This came in during the Hellenization period of the Jews about 160 year BC.  At that time, the chosen priesthood, the Zadokites, were expelled from the Temple and replaced with a man-elected priesthood - which ran to Yeshua's day.  They Zaodkites seem to have fled to a base in Qumran.

The Original calendar, which runs from morning to morning and reckons months by the sun.  This calendar was first detailed by Enoch.  From other sources in the dead sea scrolls, this was the calendar followed by Moses also.

Therefore, it's possible that the actual Passover day was observed by Yeshua, on the night before the Jews observed it according to their moon calendar.  

In the dead sea scrolls, in seems that the authors referred to those who follow the Jewish Calendar as the "sons of darkness" and the the Enoch Calendar as the "sons of light", which may give another angle to Paul's writing in 1 Thessalonians 5:5.

I was informed by a Messianic Rabbi that there was such a thing as Galilean Passover (held on the evening of 14 Nisan) as opposed to the official Passover Seder held on the evening of 15 Nisan... due to an ambiguity in Leviticus 23:15ff as to which evening the Seder should be held. Some even went as far as distinguishing the Passover Seder (14 Nisan) from the feast of unleavened bread (15 Nisan). The good Rabbi also mentioned that Galilean Passover helped with over crowding in Jerusalem at the feast. The upper classes and residents kept Seder on the official 15 Nisan while the foreign Jews and impoverished kept 14 Nisan as the Passover Seder.

In either case, and with the evening to evening reckoning of a calendar day, it afforded Yeshua the ability to keep Seder on the eve before the slaughter of the pascal lamb (which occurred while he was on the cross) and be in the tomb by the time the official Seder began. 

From Olive Tree Messianic Fellowship                                                                              The Olive Tree Messianic Fellowship                                                                                                 04/09/16 ­ Nisan 1st , 5776

 

Torah Portion #27: Tazria (החדש” (She conceives” Torah ~ Lev. 12:1-13:59︱Prophets ~ 2 Kings 4:42-5:19︱New Covenant ~ Matt. 8:1-4; Acts 22:14-16

Yeshua’s Last Passover

The Passover is to be celebrated at the close of Nisan 14th, which is in March or April (Ex. 12:1­28 & Lev. 23:4­7). All throughout the Bible we find Passover being celebrated, including by Yeshua and His disciples.

Upon reading about Yeshua’s last Passover, it seems as if Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, and Luke 22:7­8 are saying that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder, eaten at the end of Nisan 14th.

But John 13:1­2 & 18:28 indicates that the Last Supper was not the Seder because it was eaten a night earlier, at the beginning of Nisan 14th. To find the answer we need to look closely at the Gospels and a Galilean Jewish tradition.

The Gospels and Yeshua’s last Passover

Matthew 26:3­5 and Mark 14:2 both state that the leaders who conspired to have Yeshua put to death did not want His death to occur “during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people” ESV.

Luke 22:15­16 “(15) And He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. (16) For I tell you, I will never eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” TLV

After the last lamb was sacrificed on the evening of 14th (before the Seder) the High Priest would say “it is finished.” John 19:30 “When Yeshua tasted the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.” TLV

The Galilean Jewish Tradition for Passover

The Mishnah records that Galilean Jews had a different tradition than the Judean Jews for celebrating Passover. This Galilean tradition is very important for understanding the Gospels telling of Yeshua’s “Last Supper” with His disciples. For the Galilean Jews, Nisan 13th was preparation day for Passover, not the Nisan 14th. All preparation for the Feast was finished by the start of Nisan 14th. Matthew 26:2 and Mark 14:1 could be referring to this tradition when it says in “two days is the Passover” (Nisan 13th).

Then the celebration of the Passover started at the beginning of Nisan 14th with a traditional “Last Supper” before the start of the Fast Of The Firstborn (Ta'anit Bechorot). This fast was a tradition for all firstborn males in order to remember the tenth plague that came upon Egypt in the book of Exodus. The fast was to be broken with the Passover Seder at the close of Nisan 14th.

Yeshua’s Last Supper

Yeshua was the firstborn of Mary and Joseph. Both Yeshua and the disciples were Galilean Jews. Therefore they followed the tradition to prepare for Passover on Nisan 13th and keep the Fast Of The Firstborn with a “Last Supper” at the start of Nisan 14th. Prayer is a very important part of fasting, so after the Last Supper, Yeshua and the disciples went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray.

Therefore Yeshua's Last Supper was a traditional way that He started the Passover celebration each year, not the Seder as we know it today. That year Yeshua used the traditional Last Supper to show His disciples a new revelation about Him known today as the Lord’s Supper or Communion (Matt. 26:26­28; Mark 14:22­24; Luke 22:19­20; 1 Cor. 11:23­25).

Today, Judaism has placed the Galilean last supper meal within the Seder, not the night before. But some in Judaism still keep this traditional way of starting the Passover with a last supper meal the night before the Seder and then the fast.

In Closing ­ Chronological order of the Last Supper and Crucifixion

(1.) On Nisan 13th, Yeshua and His disciples kept the Galilean preparation day for the Passover.

(2.) At sunset, the start of Nisan 14th, Yeshua and the disciples had the traditional Galilean “Last Supper” before the start of the traditional “Fast Of The Firstborn”.

(3.) The next afternoon, still on Nisan 14th, Yeshua was crucified at the exact time that the lambs was being sacrificed for the Passover Seder.

(4.) At sunset, the start of Nisan 15th when the Passover Seder was to be eaten, Yeshua (sinless and unleavened) was placed in the tomb at the start of the week long Feast of Unleavened Bread (Passover), fulfilling these Feasts.

 

[NickyLouse]

My opinion has shifted a bit about how certain commands given specifically to priests, although helpful to understand, are probably not required. The reasoning behind this has to do with the order of Melchidezek. I still believe that ordinances in Leviticus 2 and 3 are applicable to everyone even though they are not carried out by sons of Aaron. Perhaps the specific offerings (minchah) may not be precisely as dictated, but I think grain/peace offerings are still accepted by God through Yeshua who intercedes for us rather than through the sons of Aaron.

I hope I am not leaning on my own understanding concerning this. I seek His wisdom in all that I do.

[JohnR7]

On 3/26/2023 at 8:05 PM, NickyLouse said:

I'm hoping that there are mature individuals knowledgeable in Torah who can explain the questions I might have about what a commandment's purpose might be.

 The Psalms, written by David himself, often express his admiration for the teachings and instructions found in God's law. David saw the law as a source of wisdom, understanding, and practical guidance for leading the people of Israel and governing justly.

The law of God provided David with a moral and ethical framework for his personal life and leadership. It offered clear guidelines on issues such as justice, compassion, integrity, and righteousness. David understood the importance of upholding these principles to foster a just and harmonious society.

[JohnR7]

On 5/15/2023 at 11:38 AM, NickyLouse said:

My opinion has shifted a bit about how certain commands given specifically to priests, although helpful to understand, are probably not required.

They are not required in a literal way, esp when you consider there is no temple. They are required in a symbolic Way in that we are to be righteous before God. 

They provide a framework for living a righteous life and maintaining a close relationship with God. Even without a physical temple, individuals can still strive to follow these principles in their daily lives. They call for sincerity, love, compassion, forgiveness, and justice. Adhering to the commandments symbolically signifies an internal commitment to align one's thoughts, intentions, and attitudes with God's standards.

We all need forgiveness and Jesus made it clear we all need to forgive in order to be forgiven. Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. We are required to show God's love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. 

[WilliamL]

On 4/4/2023 at 4:35 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

The Jewish calendar, which runs from evening to evening and reckons months by the moons.  This came in during the Hellenization period of the Jews about 160 year BC. 

The origin of beginning the day in the evening dates back to Genesis 1, where it is stated, "And the evening and the morning: day one."