Blasphemy

October 18, 2005

But in scripture this sin is indicated to be the one sin that can never be forgiven, no exceptions even with repentance. So if you have the Holy Spirit can you commit sin which is unpardonable, even if you repent and ask forgiveness?

There is no example of anyone who was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, blaspheming the Holy Spirit. So the answer is no, you cannot commit this sin if you have the Holy Spirit.

October 18, 2005

Do we really understand what it means to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. I think that is were everyone gets it wrong.

Smalcald · October 18, 2005

Is this crystal reflecting light or darkness. See if you can find one scripture that says that the spirit of man is saved at all. The Scriptures that I read say that only those who have the Spirit of God are saved. The spirit of God can not blasphemy against Himself. The spirit that you no longer have could but that spirit is dead and gone.

Ro 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Denise

Thats an interesting ''theory''

Tell me, can the Spirit of God ''sin" ?

How about you, can you "sin"

Unless you are beyond sin you can still commit ANY sin.

The Spirit would be screaming ''STOP'' in your heart and mind, no doubt, but you still can sin, the Spirit does NOT stop us from willingly doing so.

So if you did blaspheme, lets not put that responsibility on the Spirit, He cannot blaspheme Himself.
It would be you or I and our free will to do so that was committing it.

Until you can prove that the Spirit inside you PROHIBITS YOU from sinning, your argument is invalid.

But in scripture this sin is indicated to be the one sin that can never be forgiven, no exceptions even with repentance. So if you have the Holy Spirit can you commit sin which is unpardonable, even if you repent and ask forgiveness?

If a person can commit an impardonable sin, then Jesus' death on the cross is meaningless, especially if a believer can commit an impardonable sin. Personally I think this is a classic example of "Losing something in the translation". Look here.

Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

James 5:15 - And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:12 - I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Right but we have these passages which started this thread.

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be

forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto

men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:

but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in

this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,

but is in danger of eternal damnation:

I come down with Shilo, a person who is saved cannot commit this sin, but I think Christ is saying that some will commit this sin. I am thinking of those in Revelation who even though they clearly see that the Lord is calling to them in the last times, curse the Lord and refuse to repent of anything.

Smalcald · October 18, 2005

Ahhh, no there is no insertion of new theology here.

Read Shiloh's post, I agree with it exactly.

October 19, 2005

''will not'' and ''can not' are two entirely different things.

I ''will not'' commit this sin.
I know full well that I ''could''.

Can anyone here show a single verse that actually STATES that believers cannot commit this sin?

No.

I think that this brings up a another very important point, and I think that it will be an encouragement to those who are afraid that they might have committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I pointed out in another couple of posts that we find this sin ONLY being committed by unbelievers, AND only in the earthly ministry of Jesus. Now, FoC's remarks beg the question: Why, if this sin is such a danger to Christians, is it not discussed in the Epistles? If Christians can, and would be prone to commit this sin as much as any other sin, why is it not dealt with by Paul, John, Peter, James, or Jude?

We cannot assume that every church in the first century had a copy of the gospels. Yet, people seem to forget that they have, in our day, an entire canon of Scripture not available to the first century saints. It would be absurd to assume that they had access to the words of Jesus as readily as we do. Even if they did, it is conspicuous, to say the least, that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is NEVER mentioned in any of the writings of the apostles after the ascension of Christ.

It would only stand to reason that this sin, which can damn you for all eternity should be thoroughly discussed in the Epistles, but it is not. I mean, if I were living in the 1st century, one of the gravest disservices you could do would be to leave me ignorant of this sin and how just how bad it is. I would want to know EXACTLY what constitutes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I would want to know, precisely, where the boundary lines are, and how to avoid this sin at all costs. It would have been foolish for Paul to ignore this if it were any great threat to a Christian.

We have no examples of Christians committing this sin in the book of Acts, we have no discussion of this sin as it relates to the Christian in any of the Epistles. Therefore, we do not have to have a verse that says a Christian cannot commit this sin. The only people who ever committed this sin were those who were irretrievably wicked and unrepentant.

October 19, 2005

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 18 2005, 08:40 PM)

I think that this brings up a another very important point, and I think that it will be an encouragement to those who are afraid that they might have committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

The encouragement probably would be that this sin cannot be done ''accidentally''.
Personally, Id offer no comfort to the person who has actaully spoken against the Spirit.

The encouragement I am speaking of, is allaying the unfounded fears of some that they might have committed that sin. I am pointing out that if they are sitting here worrying, it is for naught, seeing that their concern is witness in itself that they have not committed this sin.

QUOTE

I pointed out in another couple of posts that we find this sin ONLY being committed by unbelievers, AND only in the earthly ministry of Jesus. Now, FoC's remarks beg the question: Why, if this sin is such a danger to Christians, is it not discussed in the Epistles? If Christians can, and would be prone to commit this sin as much as any other sin, why is it not dealt with by Paul, John, Peter, James, or Jude?

Sorry, but there may be an allusion to it in 1 John.

An "allusion" doesn't cut it. This is too serious of a sin to simply make allusions about it. It requires more precision than that. If blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was being discussed, the apostle would not have called it some other obscure name and just assume that you would make the connection. You are grasping at straws. The Epistles simply do teach us about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

QUOTE
We cannot assume that every church in the first century had a copy of the gospels. Yet, people seem to forget that they have, in our day, an entire canon of Scripture not available to the first century saints. It would be absurd to assume that they had access to the words of Jesus as readily as we do. Even if they did, it is conspicuous, to say the least, that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is NEVER mentioned in any of the writings of the apostles after the ascension of Christ.

Paul stated clearly in Acts that he forced men to blaspheme.
Against whom, we dont know, most likely the Christ.
But as I said, we dont know for sure.
We DO know he compelled them to blaspheme.

Yes, but that was his recollection of his days before he was a Christian when he went around persecuting Jewish believers. He states in Acts 26 that he compelled them to blaspheme Jesus, in other words to deny that He was the Messiah. The fact that he states that many of them were put death indicates that he was not so successful in compelling them to blaspheme. Many died for their faith in Messiah, at the hands of Paul in his "pre-Christian" days. He may have compelled them to blaspheme Christ under brutal torture, but blashpemy of Christ is forgivable.

This, again, is NOT talking about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. There is NO record in Scripture of ANY Christian blaspheming the Holy Spirit, calling the Holy Spirit a demon. We have NO record of any Christian claiming that Jesus was indwelt by a demon. Nor is such a sin discussed in the Epistles. If it were something a Christian was prone to do, it would have been discussed by the apostles in great detail.

QUOTE

It would only stand to reason that this sin, which can damn you for all eternity should be thoroughly discussed in the Epistles, but it is not. I mean, if I were living in the 1st century, one of the gravest disservices you could do would be to leave me ignorant of this sin and how just how bad it is. I would want to know EXACTLY what constitutes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I would want to know, precisely, where the boundary lines are, and how to avoid this sin at all costs. It would have been foolish for Paul to ignore this if it were any great threat to a Christian.

What did Jesus say constitutes this blasphemy.
Its very hard for me to understand why this question is even being asked.
how much clearer could it be spelled out for us?

You need to keep in mind that you are looking at this from the perspective of a person who has the full canon of Scripture. You cannot assume that all of the 1st century believers had read even one complete gospel. It is too easy, and extremely inaccurate to think that they had the same or similar access to the gospel writings that we have today. It is unlikely that everyone had heard the entire story of Jesus' life, much less remember every detail of what they heard. It would therefore be necessary for the apostles NOT to take for granted that the most important issues were grasped by their hearers/readership. If blasphemy of the Holy Spirit were a sin that a Christian needed to worry about, the apostles would not have taken for granted that every believer at that time had read Matthew 12 and Mark 3. We would have record of some teaching on these passages. But we do not. The epistles are silent on the issue. I would have expected the epistles to go into great detail and outlining for us the exact parameters of this sin and how to avoid it, if Christians were in danger of committing it.

There are possibilities... lets not reject them.

QUOTE
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.
There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Possibilities don't cut it. This is too serious of a sin, and people suffer WAY too much needless condemnation over a "possibility." If you had a substantive case, you would not have to grasp at a "possibility." Furuthermore, there is no mention of a sin unto death as being unforgivable, no mention of the Holy Spirit.

QUOTE
We have no examples of Christians committing this sin in the book of Acts, we have no discussion of this sin as it relates to the Christian in any of the Epistles. Therefore, we do not have to have a verse that says a Christian cannot commit this sin. The only people who ever committed this sin were those who were irretrievably wicked and unrepentant.

As I said, there IS example of Paul compelling men to blaspheme

And as I demonstrated, you are incorrect as it relates to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You simply don't have a case.

One thing we can conclude absolutely on this matter, it was SPEAKING against the Spirit that Jesus adressed.

Yes, but the Mark 3 also shows us what he was talking about. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit taken in the context of the ONLY time it is recorded to occur, was done by unbelievers, during Jesus earthly ministry, and it refers to calling the Holy Spirit a demon. It is not talking about some generic, over generalized reference to "speaking against" the Holy Spirit. It is a specific sin, with a specific definition.

ruah brit · October 19, 2005

and its becasue those who commit that sin ARE UNBELIEVERS.

you are trying to force in a theology that has no business being inserted there.

read the following verses--up to 37.

dont stop at the point you can make a theological stand out of.

JUSTIFIED MEANS SAVED.

a person saved WILL NOT COMMIT THIS SIN.

easy.
''will not'' and ''can not' are two entirely different things.

I ''will not'' commit this sin.
I know full well that I ''could''.

Can anyone here show a single verse that actually STATES that believers cannot commit this sin?

No.

Yes. Here is Christ's asurance that those who have God's Spirit and are chosen can not sin. Those who claim to be Christians who don't end up in the kingdom never had God's spirit and their vanity made them liars.

Joh 6

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

1 John 4

17Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world

1 John 3

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

ph 4

24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Ro 8

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ga 5

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Ro 6

2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Denise

Edited October 19, 2005 by ruah brit

October 19, 2005

Are you kidding me?

There are passages showing an 'unforgivable sin'.
There are passages in Hebrews SHOWING those ''sanctified partakers of the Holy Spirit'' insulting the Spirit of grace somehow and no longer having any sacrifice remaining for their sins

You are referring to Hebrews 10:26-29. But the writer of Hebrews is talking about a person who has rejected the Messiah and denied the faith. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not merely insulting the Holy Spirit but is rather a defamation of the Holy Spirit and an attempt to injure God's reputation. Hebrews 10:26-29 is a warning against apostasy. The writer of Hebrews 10 makes a very Jewish "light to heavy" argument. Stating that those who sinned under the Mosaic law were killed on the testimony of two or three witnesses. The writer then asks, how much more grave is it to know the truth of the Messiah and reject it? If breaking the Mosaic law brought dire consequences, how much more dire would the consequences be for those who deny the Messiah???

The person who would fit the description of Hebrews 10:29 would not be a Christian. For a person to be saved, and then later blaspheme the Holy Spirit would require them to descend to a level that would have rendered them apostate long before they committed that sin. They would have already denied the Messiah in their heart and ceased being a Christian long before they began defaming the Holy Spirit as the Pharisees did. There is no way that one can be a Christian AND blaspheme the Holy Spirit at the same time. You must first apostasize from the faith and thus ceasing being a Christian FIRST. Only then is it conceivable that one could commit the unpardonable sin.

and then we come to a clear verse that states NOT to pray for a "brother" who has commited A ''sin that leads to death''..... and you say it doesnt cut it ?

And we have CLEAR scripture that speaks of "A" sin that leads to death and our not wasting our times praying about it if a BROTHER commit it.

What he is talking about is intercession. We do not intercede for a person who is a willful denier of the faith in the same way we intercede for a fellow believer. Taken in context with rest of the chapter, those who sin unto death are willful deniers of the faith. They are those who demonstrate through their impenitence that they were never brothers in the first place. Not even Jesus intercedes for the entire world that hardens it heart against him, but rather His intercession is for those who have been given to Him out of the world system. We cannot work from a higher standard than Jesus does, and it is presumptuous for us intercede for the impenitent other than to simply pray that God's will be done otherwise we would be attempting to set ourselves us as more merciful than God Himself.

I am not the one with the burden of proof. I don't have to prove that Christians cannot commit the Holy Spirit. You are the one taking on the role of accuser. You are the one who has to demonstrate from Scripture that Christians can and do commit this sin, while they are still Christians.

I will not allow people like you to heap condemnation on young believers and shipwrecking their faith by planting seeds of doubt in their mind about their salvation. You will not do the work of the enemy unchallenged while I am on this board.

yomotalking · October 19, 2005

Then I think we are all lost.

How many people have questioned, and said complaints about the Holy Spirit, that they should not have done>?

I did once.

Am I going to hell?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

good question, but no is the answer, because you are questioning the spirits work, not the essence or existance of the Holy Spirit.

think about that---a non-believer doesnt think the HS exists----their mouth condemns them;

the mistake being made is through EISEGESIS in these verses.

the whole content of following verses are left out....

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

anyone notice the word JUSTIFIED----AHHHH---YEAHHH....

one who speaks AGAINST---the Holy Spirit, becasue they arent saved---WONT BE FORGIVEN.

out of their heart, overfloweth the mouth.

UNBELEIF.

people who questioin the text are questioning their own stance.

OSAS is what God sent his son for----not to let em play around with his name.

people who do that were never saved---just lippers.....

Then all Non-Christians have blasphmed, and damned, and there is NO WAY they can be saved.......

Is that it?

October 19, 2005

Then all Non-Christians have blasphmed, and damned, and there is NO WAY they can be saved.......

Is that it?

Not really. Anyone who tells you that every sinner has blasphemed the Holy Spirit is simply incorrect. Yomo, you have nothing to worry about. You have not committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

There are sinners who have blasphemed Jesus. But Jesus says that even blasphemy against Him can be forgiven. What you are encountering here Yomo, is certain people who do not understand the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Please read my posts in this thread. My information is the most accurate. Don't listen to people who are going to scare you into thinking that you are not saved. That is the work of the enemy, and not the Holy Spirit. Anyone who would make you doubt your salvation is not operating in Spirit, but in the flesh. Believe me Yomo, you are in no danger whatsoever of losing your salvation where this issue is concerned.