How can "the Church" be raptured BEFORE Jesus is risen?

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Montana Marv is saying it in this thread. It's a common error in the pretrib doctrine, a conclusion apart from evidence. 

Show me in Scripture where any other group of individuals are promised Crowns.  The only group is the Church or Body of Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[BibleWords]

13 hours ago, Michael37 said:

And yet there are still saints on earth for the beasts from the sea and the earth to tyrannise.

Rev 13:7  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
 

These are the “saints” who come to Christ after the rapture.  Not the church. Tribulation saints are not the Bride of Christ. Yet they are “saints” because they have trusted Christ for salvation.

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, bloom said:

I like this table , but if you were to move the 7th seal and the 7th trump to the bottom line to happen at the same time as the 7th bowl how would it change your perception of the revelation.

Same end result of the perfect completion of God's Plan.

[Charles R. Sabo]

21 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Can you provide evidence of any person or organisation that maintains "the church is raptured before Jesus is risen"?

Where have you picked up this argument from?

The church age began at Pentecost as we can read in Acts 2. The Resurrection of Life is to be understood to be in three phases, just as the annual harvest of Israel was. The first fruits of the Resurrection of Life are immortals now in heaven with their immortal bodies. However, those dead in Christ have gone to heaven with only their soul and spirit. They have not yet been resurrected, until the rapture of the church. Then that second phase of the Resurrection of life will have come to pass. 

The Jews would obey the commandment of God on the first workday, following the first regular Sabbath (after the Feast of Passover), they would waive the first fruits of their barley harvest.  The Feast of First Fruits was a divine appointment, set by God for Israel, in order to prepare them for their future redemption. Little did they know that it symbolized the First Fruits of the Resurrection of Life (Jn. 5:29). Jesus Christ arose, that first day after the Sabbath, fulfilling the third Feast of the Lord; this was in the exact order of the feast schedule and on the exact day. The time between Jesus’ death on the cross, and His resurrection, was three days and nights that had passed. 

Many will ask: “Where was Jesus Christ during those three days and nights? ^“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Matt. 12:40)  With the verse in Matthew 12:40, we should understand that Jesus the Messiah spent three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth. Then, many ask: “What was He doing in the heart of the Earth?” The Bible does answer this specifically. In Ephesians 4:8-10, one can read the Apostle Paul’s explanation of what Jesus was doing in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.   

 

 ⁸Wherefore He said, “When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” ⁹ (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the Earth? ¹⁰ He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things. (Eph. 4:8-10)

 

The Apostle Paul explained that Jesus had descended down to the center of the Earth, before He ascended up to heaven. Many will not understand what Paul meant by “He led captivity captive.” Jesus the Christ, having died on the cross, fulfilled Genesis 3:15. He crushed the head of Lucifer, even though Lucifer bruised Christ’s heel, by sending Him to the cross. The sting of death is gone for those who have believed.  

 From the Garden of Eden, until the last breath Jesus took on the cross, there was a place called hell (sheol) where all souls went after they died a physical death. Jesus had already explained that hell was a two compartment waiting place. One side is bottomless, dark, hot, painful and hopeless. The other side was a pleasant place called “Abraham’s bosom,” where the saints from the Old Testament had been sent, because they had to wait for the Messiah to come and fulfill what God had promised. Jesus had spoken about this in the story about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. It has to be an absolutely true story, because He used names of real people. In all of the parables that Jesus ever told, he never used real names of actual people.  Abraham was a real person, and so therefore, was Lazarus also.

 

 ²²And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; ²³ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:22-23)

 

The Old Testament Saints were still prisoners of their sins, which they had committed, during their life on Earth. They waited for their redeemer to pay the price for the sins which they had committed. Only God could have lived a sinless life; only God could have a “high enough value” because of who He is, in order to be the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of all who would trust in Him. If a normal man had lived a sinless life, and died on the cross, it would not satisfy God’s price for the sins of all mankind? If an angel had done this, would the value of an angel be enough? It would not be so. It was the value of who Jesus is, as the only begotten Son of GOD the Father, which makes His value worthy of paying for the sins for all mankind. This is why the “virgin birth” is so important to the gospel. If Mary wasn’t a virgin, then how would mankind be sure that Jesus was the Son of God? God the Son was sufficient for the sins of mankind. As Jesus had said “It is finished,” the price was paid in full.

 

22But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. ²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. (1 Cor. 15:22-23)

 

                 The Apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, tells the church that Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept. If one were to ask: “Who was sleeping?” The only conclusion would be, that this was all those who had died before Christ had died, who were waiting for their Messiah to come; these were those that lived their life for God and trusted that He was going to send His Messiah. One can see in verse 1 Corinthians 15:23, God resurrects all of mankind in an order. Yes, all of mankind, that has ever lived, will have a resurrection! This also means that there is more than one phase in the Resurrection of Life. There is a verse in John 5:29 that states that there are only two resurrections. The Resurrection of Life and the Resurrection of Damnation. The Resurrection of Life has three phases, which are similar to the traditional Jewish harvest.  This will be explained a little later.

 

 Your dead men shall live, together with My dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, you that dwell in dust: for your dew is as the dew of herbs, and the Earth shall cast out the dead. (Is. 26:19)

 

Jesus descended down to the center of the Earth to gather the Old Testament Saints; He took them from captivity in hell (sheol), and led them captive into victory; they were resurrected and ascended to heaven with God the Son! Praise the Lord! Notice in Matthew 27:52-53 that the Old Testament Saints had resurrected after Jesus had, and walked into the city of Jerusalem. 

 

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, ⁵³ And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matt. 27:52-53)

 

The prophet Hosea also wrote of this day that the Old Testament Saints would rise and be with their Lord. A person should be able to read this and see that it has already been fulfilled; please notice that the Lord was to raise them up on the third day. With Matthew 27:52-53 confirming it, the first phase of the Resurrection of Life was completed. Is it a coincidence that it happened on the Feast of First Fruits? Thus, they were the first fruits of the Resurrection of Life.

 

 1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for He has torn, and He will heal us; He has smitten, and He will bind us up.

² After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight. (Hos. 6:1-2)

 

         It probably wasn’t long after the saints were resurrected, that Jesus then led them to heaven. One can read in John 20:14 that Jesus was about to ascend up after speaking with Mary. The Feast of First Fruits was fulfilled, and once again on the exact feast day, by Jesus Christ as He resurrected from the dead; he fulfilled the prophecies of that day (Isaiah 26:19, Hosea 6:1-2), by raising up those that were waiting for their Messiah to free them from their captivity in sheol; His victory over death guarantees all Christians a resurrection onto eternal life someday as well. 

 

 ¹⁴And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. ¹⁵ Jesus said unto her: “Woman, why do you weep? Whom do you seek?” She, supposing him to be the gardener, said unto Him: “Sir, if You have borne him hence, tell me where You have laid him, and I will take Him away.” ¹⁶ Jesus said unto her: “Mary.” She turned herself, and said unto Him: “Rabboni,” which is to say, “Master!” ¹⁷ Jesus said unto her: “Touch me not, because I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (Jn. 20:14-17)

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Charles R. Sabo said:

The first fruits of the Resurrection of Life are immortals now in heaven with their immortal bodies.

Remind me of the Bible reference for this. 

[Dennis1209]

@DeighAnn

I have noticed over the months you are digging deeper into scripture, asking questions, and debating. That is a good thing; iron sharpens iron.

The single question of who are the 24 Elders or what they represent could take several pages to document. The brightest scholars, theologians, early church fathers, and secular historians like Josephus have varying views.

We are appointed to be kings and priests. The number 24 can also be expressed as 12+12. Messenger angels and the heavenly host are never said to sit on thrones or be awarded crowns. The New Jerusalem has twelve gates (tribes of Israel) and twelve foundations (the apostles).

One thing seems inevitable; it is a position of great dignity, perhaps an honorary title. We could discuss the Greek word Elder and how we derived the English words priest and presbyter. The 24 priestly classes of the Jews. The twelve precious stones on the priest's hoshen. How all these may or may not apply to the twenty-four Elders.

There is also a heavenly government. It may be these 24 Elders are a council, a divine council, and they suddenly appear out of nowhere directly when a door is opened in heaven.

I have never read any secular books written in linear, chronological order. The book of Revelation has parenthetical chapters and verses.

Previous to this, in the first three chapters of Revelation, the church is mentioned 19 times. I ask, beginning in Revelation chapter 4, when is the next time the church is mentioned?

Lumping numerous questions together with comments is confusing. Can we pick one question to discuss and progress from there? For me, dissecting one topic with a question at a time is not as confusing.

[Michael37]

22 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

@DeighAnn

I have noticed over the months you are digging deeper into scripture, asking questions, and debating. That is a good thing; iron sharpens iron.

The single question of who are the 24 Elders or what they represent could take several pages to document. The brightest scholars, theologians, early church fathers, and secular historians like Josephus have varying views.

We are appointed to be kings and priests. The number 24 can also be expressed as 12+12. Messenger angels and the heavenly host are never said to sit on thrones or be awarded crowns. The New Jerusalem has twelve gates (tribes of Israel) and twelve foundations (the apostles).

One thing seems inevitable; it is a position of great dignity, perhaps an honorary title. We could discuss the Greek word Elder and how we derived the English words priest and presbyter. The 24 priestly classes of the Jews. The twelve precious stones on the priest's hoshen. How all these may or may not apply to the twenty-four Elders.

There is also a heavenly government. It may be these 24 Elders are a council, a divine council, and they suddenly appear out of nowhere directly when a door is opened in heaven.

I have never read any secular books written in linear, chronological order. The book of Revelation has parenthetical chapters and verses.

Previous to this, in the first three chapters of Revelation, the church is mentioned 19 times. I ask, beginning in Revelation chapter 4, when is the next time the church is mentioned?

Lumping numerous questions together with comments is confusing. Can we pick one question to discuss and progress from there? For me, dissecting one topic with a question at a time is not as confusing.

Well written comment, @Dennis1209

I balk at the use of this vision of 24 elders around the throne of God to prove some point about when the rapture occurs. 

A supernatural vision is shown John and he writes about it, having received very specific details about divine arrangements that impact human affairs, 

[Dennis1209]

35 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Well written comment, @Dennis1209

I balk at the use of this vision of 24 elders around the throne of God to prove some point about when the rapture occurs. 

A supernatural vision is shown John and he writes about it, having received very specific details about divine arrangements that impact human affairs, 

Yes, Sir, there are differing views of who the Elders are and the timing of the Rapture. Bright godly men have debated theology for centuries and do not reach the same consensus.

As a simple Bible student, like everyone else, I have my thoughts and opinions that may not be correct. I do my best not to convey my eschatology and exegesis as fact and are not set in concrete or changeable. My thoughts evolve as I study and dig deeper into the Word.

As time passes, we are reading the headlines in the media, prophecy unfolding and about to come to fruition.

[WilliamL]

On 4/21/2023 at 6:01 PM, DeighAnn said:

It SURE is, and how terribly sad that is.  One day soon, that will cease to be but by then it will be too late for so many who will fall away before then because they believed what MAN said instead of what is written.  And WOE to those teachers of such doctrines of man.  

We have had our disagreements, but none here: spot on.

[WilliamL]

On 4/21/2023 at 5:31 PM, DeighAnn said:

I absolutely agree, Christ Jesus has been in heaven for 2000 years and has not returned since and so it is impossible for the church to be "the elders" we see before He got there. 

Unless these are the OT saints who were in Hades when Jesus descended there to preach the Gospel, which they believed, and therefore "the gates of Hades could not prevail against" them to keep them in; and so they "came out of the graves after his resurrection" (Mt. 27:53), and were taken up to heaven sometime during, or at the end of, the 40 days of Jesus' remaining earthly ministry. And so the Rapture of our day will only be for NT saints.

That is what I suspect is the case: these elders are Gospel-saved OT saints.

The Church of the NT era is not meant to prevail against the gates of Hades in order to let the damned out; rather, the Church that was formed by Jesus in Hades prevailed against its gates from keeping them in.