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What does this passage mean?


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On 5/18/2023 at 3:06 PM, BibleWords said:

You do not know the day that the tribulation begins.

Come on and be real.

God has not given you some special discernment beyond what other believers have.

Just a little humility , please.

@Shilohsfoal

There is tribulation in what we are living in now since Pentecost; the birthplace & time of the Church, the body of believers.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Then there is great tribulation after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Note verse 14 stipulating that the gospel has to be preached every where before the end comes?

Now compare that with the rapture event testifying out of those raptured as redeemed from the earth, those 144,000 honest virgin men, to serve as His personal choir that follow Him around where ever He goes in verses 1-5, then the 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth as the first angel spreads the everlasting gospel every where so every one knows the gospel and has no excuse for not knowing the gospel in verses 6-7.  Then the end comes with the 2nd angel heralding the fall of Babylon in verse 8 and the death of those left behind saints in verse 13 which is in detail in Revelation 18:1-24 KJV with left behind saints whose works followed them. 

It is important to note that a third of the earth is burned up which is the western hemisphere for why and how Babylon had fallen after the pre great tribulation rapture event.  Revelation 8:7 KJV which fiery calamity will set up the NWO for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world;  the eastern hemisphere.

And the 3rd angel in Revelation 14:9-11 warning everyone in the rest of the world of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast beforehand so they are without excuse for not knowing the penalty is the lake of fire for wanting to survive in that coming New World Order.

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3 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

@Shilohsfoal

There is tribulation in what we are living in now since Pentecost; the birthplace & time of the Church, the body of believers.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Then there is great tribulation after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Note verse 14 stipulating that the gospel has to be preached every where before the end comes?

Now compare that with the rapture event testifying out of those raptured as redeemed from the earth, those 144,000 honest virgin men, to serve as His personal choir that follow Him around where ever He goes in verses 1-5, then the 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth as the first angel spreads the everlasting gospel every where so every one knows the gospel and has no excuse for not knowing the gospel in verses 6-7.  Then the end comes with the 2nd angel heralding the fall of Babylon in verse 8 and the death of those left behind saints in verse 13 which is in detail in Revelation 18:1-24 KJV with left behind saints whose works followed them. 

It is important to note that a third of the earth is burned up which is the western hemisphere for why and how Babylon had fallen after the pre great tribulation rapture event.  Revelation 8:7 KJV which fiery calamity will set up the NWO for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world;  the eastern hemisphere.

And the 3rd angel in Revelation 14:9-11 warning everyone in the rest of the world of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast beforehand so they are without excuse for not knowing the penalty is the lake of fire for wanting to survive in that coming New World Order.

This is false.The persecution of the saints in Israel starts 42 months before the great tribulation caused by the war of Armageddon.

Let us review the scripture concerning the persecution of the saints and then the great tribulation caused by the war.

First we have the persecution of the saints beginning when the king of the north gives Israel his armed forces.

Daniel 11:33

Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

As I've stated,this persecution lasts for 3.5 and it is recorded in several places in scripture.

 

The great tribulation takes place after this persecution and it starts with the king of the south attacking the king of the north in Daniel 11:40.The king of the north responds sending a great fleet of ships to the middle east to destroy all that land.It is at this time that Daniel states that it would be time of tribulation ,the likes of which have never been seen.

Daniel 11:44-12:2

But rumors and anxieties out of the east and from the north shall trouble him; and he shall come with great wrath to destroy many.
And he shall pitch the tabernacle of his palace between the seas in the holy mountain of beauty: but he shall come to his portion, and there is none to deliver him.

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

 

 

 

Now I understand your concern of the tribulation and how you feel you shouldn't suffer persecution as many saints do,you should know you will not precede those who sleep in the dust of the earth,for the dead in Christ shall rise first and they are risen in Daniel 12:2 during the time of great tribulation.

AS I've shown ,the persecution of the saints takes place before this time of great tribulation which Daniel recorded.

 

The beast is destroyed during the great tribulation and his body given to the fire.

Edited by Shilohsfoal
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2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Then there is great tribulation after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

YE SHALL SEE the abomination...not when 'THEY shall see' or those who COME AFTER the rapture shall see...or when the 'trib saints shall see'...

but YE...

IS...A WITNESS to all nations...FOLLOWED BY 'then the PRE TRIB RAPTURE' and THEN the end comes?

NO. 

SO why would ANYONE ever put it forth as if it were?  



let's simply believe what 'the PROPHET' JESUS says...aka what is written...

then it is easy to see no 'pre great trib rapture' is even POSSIBLE...and surely we should obey the voice of the Lord, and not the wisdom and or feelings of man
 

 

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2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Now compare that with the rapture event testifying out of those raptured as redeemed from the earth, those 144,000 honest virgin men, to serve as His personal choir that follow Him around where ever He goes in verses 1-5,

OF THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL...

are you SAYING THE CHURCH is ISRAEL or

the 12 tribes of Israel are PRE TRIB RAPTURED and NOT the CHURCH at all?

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


So, do they COME OUT OF GREAT TRIB or don't they?  Are they Israel or the Church?    

 

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 but he shall come to his portion, and there is none to deliver him.

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up,

 7093. qets ►
Strong's Concordance
qets: end
Original Word: קֵץ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qets
Phonetic Spelling: (kates)
Definition: end



IT IS WHEN
SATAN COMES TO HIS END

that GREAT TRIB COMES....

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


It is when YE SEE the abomination of desolation THEN GREAT TRIB COMES, NOT BEFORE


There is NO WAY that
the GREATEST TRIB the world will ever SEE comes at the HANDS OF SATAN...

His trib can't EVEN COMPARE with THE ENDING OF AN AGE. 


Satan will deceive and 'claim' to be...

GOD will DESTROY all that and bring about an END, and then bring about a NEW DAY...THAT is the GREAT TRIB


 

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38 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

OF THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL...

are you SAYING THE CHURCH is ISRAEL or

the 12 tribes of Israel are PRE TRIB RAPTURED and NOT the CHURCH at all?

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


So, do they COME OUT OF GREAT TRIB or don't they?  Are they Israel or the Church?    

 

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

 

 7093. qets ►
Strong's Concordance
qets: end
Original Word: קֵץ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qets
Phonetic Spelling: (kates)
Definition: end



IT IS WHEN
SATAN COMES TO HIS END

that GREAT TRIB COMES....

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


It is when YE SEE the abomination of desolation THEN GREAT TRIB COMES, NOT BEFORE


There is NO WAY that
the GREATEST TRIB the world will ever SEE comes at the HANDS OF SATAN...

His trib can't EVEN COMPARE with THE ENDING OF AN AGE. 


Satan will deceive and 'claim' to be...

GOD will DESTROY all that and bring about an END, and then bring about a NEW DAY...THAT is the GREAT TRIB

 

No ,the king of the north is not Satan.

He is just a man .

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3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

This is false.The persecution of the saints in Israel starts 42 months before the great tribulation caused by the war of Armageddon.

Let us review the scripture concerning the persecution of the saints and then the great tribulation caused by the war.

First we have the persecution of the saints beginning when the king of the north gives Israel his armed forces.

Daniel 11:33

Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

As I've stated,this persecution lasts for 3.5 and it is recorded in several places in scripture.

 

The great tribulation takes place after this persecution and it starts with the king of the south attacking the king of the north in Daniel 11:40.The king of the north responds sending a great fleet of ships to the middle east to destroy all that land.It is at this time that Daniel states that it would be time of tribulation ,the likes of which have never been seen.

Daniel 11:44-12:2

But rumors and anxieties out of the east and from the north shall trouble him; and he shall come with great wrath to destroy many.
And he shall pitch the tabernacle of his palace between the seas in the holy mountain of beauty: but he shall come to his portion, and there is none to deliver him.

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

 

 

 

Now I understand your concern of the tribulation and how you feel you shouldn't suffer persecution as many saints do,you should know you will not precede those who sleep in the dust of the earth,for the dead in Christ shall rise first and they are risen in Daniel 12:2 during the time of great tribulation.

AS I've shown ,the persecution of the saints takes place before this time of great tribulation which Daniel recorded.

 

The beast is destroyed during the great tribulation and his body given to the fire.

I thank you for sharing, but the persecution of "saints" still aligns with what I believe because there will be unrepentant saints and former believers left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event as well as new believers after hearing the everlasting gospel from the first of the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth per Revelation 14th chapter.

Also, the beast is destroyed at the end of the great tribulation; not during.

Revelation 19:11-21  aligns with Zechariah 14:1-5 in how Jesus comes back with the pre great tribulation raptured saints where He battles the world's armies marching against Jerusalem.  Note the touch down on the Mount of olives to accomplish this.

After defeat of the world's armies, & Satan is in the pit for a thousand years, is when that particular resurrection of left behind saints and new believers that went through the great tribulation are resurrected "first" BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgment see verse 5 for explaining what first resurrection was to actually mean.  Revelation 20:1-6

As for the beast warring against nations to the north ( Russia ) and to the East ( China & Iran & Iraq etc. ) it would explain why he was outside of Jerusalem for the latter half of the great tribulation after exposing himself as that son of perdition.  After conquering those massive armies in bringing them under his control, it will be the time for him to march them all against Jerusalem as he knows He is coming soon at the end of the "week" which I understood as starting when they give permission to build that Third Temple per a peace treaty with Israel after USA and the western hemisphere had fallen.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

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2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

OF THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL...

are you SAYING THE CHURCH is ISRAEL or

the 12 tribes of Israel are PRE TRIB RAPTURED and NOT the CHURCH at all?

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So, do they COME OUT OF GREAT TRIB or don't they?  Are they Israel or the Church?  
 

For the reference of Revelation 14:1-5, this is about the pre great tribulation rapture of 144,000 honest virgin men that were "redeemed" from the earth that make up His personal choir that follows Jesus where ever He goes in Heaven.  This is not saying they are the only ones raptured nor is it about the 144,000 witnesses on earth after the rapture that are formerly Jews but now believers in Jesus Christ.

The reference you cited is about the 144,000 witnesses, 12,000 each from the 12 tribes of Israel, for the duration of the great tribulation after the rapture event that became believers after the rapture, but there will be others as well.

As for that verse 14 reference in your quote;  that can apply to more than just the 144,000 witnesses that were Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel.  There will be left behind unrepentant saints and former believers as well as new believers that are not of that nation of Israel. 

That verse 14 does not apply to the 144,000 honest virgin men out of all those that were raptured that serves as his personal choir in Heaven.

 

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3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

YE SHALL SEE the abomination...not when 'THEY shall see' or those who COME AFTER the rapture shall see...or when the 'trib saints shall see'...

but YE...

IS...A WITNESS to all nations...FOLLOWED BY 'then the PRE TRIB RAPTURE' and THEN the end comes?

NO. 

SO why would ANYONE ever put it forth as if it were?  



let's simply believe what 'the PROPHET' JESUS says...aka what is written...

then it is easy to see no 'pre great trib rapture' is even POSSIBLE...and surely we should obey the voice of the Lord, and not the wisdom and or feelings of man

Well, if you apply His words "YE SHALL SEE" to mean that, then He was talking to His disciples and so did they see it?  No.

When you read Zechariah 14:1-5 where Jesus is touching down on the Mount of Olives in coming back with the saints ( pre great tribulation raptured saints ) and you compare that with Revelation 19:11-21 where He does battle with the world's armies and defeats them and then going into Revelation 20:1-6, where Satan is already in the pit for a thousand years BEFORE He resurrects those that come out of the great tribulation; then who were the saints that came back with Him in Zechariah 14:5?

Jesus is not meeting those saints after the great tribulation in the air when He is on earth after having defeated the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years.

This is why Jesus is warning believers in Luke 12:40-49 and the 7 churches where 5 were told to repent or the 2 were told hold fast OR ELSE be cast into the great tribulation as this church was warned at Revelation 2:18-25

The pre great tribulation rapture event is when God judges His House first as the Bridegroom before He comes back with the saints at the end of the great tribulation to judge the world as the King of kings.  1 Peter 4:17-19

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4 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I thank you for sharing, but the persecution of "saints" still aligns with what I believe because there will be unrepentant saints and former believers left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event as well as new believers after hearing the everlasting gospel from the first of the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth per Revelation 14th chapter.

Also, the beast is destroyed at the end of the great tribulation; not during.

Revelation 19:11-21  aligns with Zechariah 14:1-5 in how Jesus comes back with the pre great tribulation raptured saints where He battles the world's armies marching against Jerusalem.  Note the touch down on the Mount of olives to accomplish this.

After defeat of the world's armies, & Satan is in the pit for a thousand years, is when that particular resurrection of left behind saints and new believers that went through the great tribulation are resurrected "first" BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgment see verse 5 for explaining what first resurrection was to actually mean.  Revelation 20:1-6

As for the beast warring against nations to the north ( Russia ) and to the East ( China & Iran & Iraq etc. ) it would explain why he was outside of Jerusalem for the latter half of the great tribulation after exposing himself as that son of perdition.  After conquering those massive armies in bringing them under his control, it will be the time for him to march them all against Jerusalem as he knows He is coming soon at the end of the "week" which I understood as starting when they give permission to build that Third Temple per a peace treaty with Israel after USA and the western hemisphere had fallen.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

So you believe your name is not written?

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14 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So you believe your name is not written?

Not sure where you got that from.

Every saved believer's name is written in the Book of Life as He said in Revelation 3:5 where the English word "not" is from the Greek "ov un" which is a double negative as meaning He would never do that to any believer because of john 6:39 for why He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him BUT they can lose out on being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection, as in losing that place in the City of God in Heaven and the Marriage Supper, and losing their crowns, & losing living forever like the angels too.  Those who lose that first inheritance like Esau & the prodigal son can never get that first inheritance back, but they are still son.

This is why there are  vessels unto dishonor in His House, the vessels of wood and earth that did not depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation ( Revelation 7:9-17 ) to serve the King of kings on earth in raising up the next generation in that 1000 year reign of Christ as well as be allowed to eat from the tree of life in that City of God that comes down to earth for God to dwell among men.  Only the power of the second death will not be over them, but the power of the first death still can be over them for why they need the tree of life for the healing of the nations.

Of course, after that 1000 year reign and Satan is released from the pit to stage a last rebellion for a small season, but he will be defeated & cast into the lake of fire as this will be the time of the Great White Throne Judgment for when hell & death be thrown in also.  This is when I believe the power of that first death will no longer be over those resurrected after the great tribulation as well as those saints remaining loyal to Christ after Satan's last rebellion on earth, thus death is conquered at last and swallowed up in victory forever as I take that to mean they will never sin against God again & be "like" the firstfruits, except they may still be marrying and raising more generations... not sure on this since once the 3 harvests is done and thus the kingdom of Heaven is completed, the Son gives the kingdom back to the Father.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I'm open to correction if any since we prophesy in art & know in part, but it seems to all align with what is written in scripture.

 

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