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[Arial]

26 minutes ago, farouk said:

Whose followers is the Lord Jesus talking to in John 14? (As per 1 Cor. 10.32...)

In John 14 Jesus is talking to the 12 as we see at the beginning of John 13 which is a whole discourse Jesus was having with them during the evening meal, and continues into Chapter 14.

As to 1 Cor 10:32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God--- I have no idea why you presented it in the context of this conversation.

[BibleWords]

21 minutes ago, Arial said:

I do not believe that John 14 can in any way be seen as support of rapture theory. It would seem that in order for it to do so, a firm belief of a coming "rapture" would have to pre-exist in the one who does so. Without that belief already present a  reading of those scriptures would never arrive on it own to being about a rapture. ANd in all of Daniel of the dreams interpreted, in all of Rev, in all of the few scriptures of the NT that are used as though they clearly used the word "rapture" and do not, is any such thing actually ever said?

John 14 is not speaking about Jesus coming to take His bride. It is talking about Jesus leaving the disciples as His finished work of redemption on earth, promising they will be with Him where He goes, (but not when), and sending them the Holy Spirit to carry on the earthly work of gathering the sheep (the bride) through the gospel spread.

Don't forget that Jesus was speaking to His disciples. Almost all of whom died horrific martyr's deaths. Don't forget the countless times both Jesus and the apostles promised that His people would suffer and be persecuted but that He would bring them through trouble. Don't forget history. The dark ages and periods of great persecution of the church, the burnings, hangings, imprisonment, torture, all for the name of Jesus. That is a refining for His church and a judgment stored up for His enemies---many who met it in the land of the living while they saints bore witness.

Don't forget 70 a.d. when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed and the priesthood and sacrifices were brought to an end. That was a judgment, wrath of God poured out.

This is an analogy made where no analogy exists without a preconceived belief in a "rapture" eisegesis being forced on the scripture.

The Bible does not clearly teach any "rapture". It doesn't teach it at all.

The bride of Christ is never told that she won't witness God's wrath. She has witnessed it many times in history and would even today could she but see. It is seen in the very verses of Romans 1.

Who was judged in the flood?

Who escaped?

Who was judged in Sodom and Gomorrah?

Who escaped?

Where was Jesus promising to take His disciples in John 14?

All troubles of the church down through the years are terrible, of course, but you surely cannot equate these expected trials with the great tribulation.

Matt. 24:21–“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

This verse, spoken by Jesus, clearly tells us that the trouble of the church down through time does not compare with the great tribulation.

Surely you must see this.

[Arial]

2 hours ago, farouk said:

When the Whom? is considered about the coming of the Lord Jesus, as well as the What? then the picture can become clearer.

This idea of a rapture and a seven year tribulation is new. It did not exist in the first century church and not until about 200 years ago. It's origins are highly suspect. If anyone cares they will search it out and after that either believe or disbelieve it. Why believe it blindly?

The idea of a pre, post, mid, rapture is very appealing to many. The embers took hold and spread into a wildfire, fueled by books and movies of all things. But it is pretty much all that is taught in my experience in many churches and even on forums. It is taught as fact. Never examined. And it is one of the most difficult things for humans---to let go of what they have believed from the cradle (new born Christian). It shakes us to think that what we what we believed about one thing was possibly not true; that what we were counting on coming to pass was not even in the Bible. It shakes our confidence and it shakes our trust.

This particular issue is not salvational so it is not a life or death matter. But one must wonder surely, how much of the meaning of other scripture did they miss simply by looking at it through that one lens?

[farouk]

17 minutes ago, Arial said:

This idea of a rapture and a seven year tribulation is new. It did not exist in the first century church and not until about 200 years ago. It's origins are highly suspect. If anyone cares they will search it out and after that either believe or disbelieve it. Why believe it blindly?

The idea of a pre, post, mid, rapture is very appealing to many. The embers took hold and spread into a wildfire, fueled by books and movies of all things. But it is pretty much all that is taught in my experience in many churches and even on forums. It is taught as fact. Never examined. And it is one of the most difficult things for humans---to let go of what they have believed from the cradle (new born Christian). It shakes us to think that what we what we believed about one thing was possibly not true; that what we were counting on coming to pass was not even in the Bible. It shakes our confidence and it shakes our trust.

This particular issue is not salvational so it is not a life or death matter. But one must wonder surely, how much of the meaning of other scripture did they miss simply by looking at it through that one lens?

Well, I I just don't see that in Scripture Israel - and all its context - and the church - and all its context - are the same. Even though some of Israel were indeed justified by faith (Hebrews 11), the emphasis seems to be on earthly blessings for Israel and spiritual blessings (Ephesians 1) for the church.

[Arial]

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Who was judged in the flood?

Who escaped?

Why do you think that is related in any way to the "rapture" without reading that into it? You are missapplying the scripture. It is a historical account. The righteous Noah had to be saved out of that judgement. Otherwise there would be no one. The whole world was about to be flooded.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Who was judged in Sodom and Gomorrah?

Who escaped?

Did those who escaped see the wrath of God? Were they raptured out of it? They escaped His wrath. And Christians will always escape His wrath. They will never face His wrath against them. That does not mean they won't be around during it. They often have been, even in the Bible.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

Where was Jesus promising to take His disciples in John 14?

How does one jump from Jesus promising them a place in the kingdom to Him telling them His bride will be raptured before the also speculative seven year tribulation. A great deal of Rev is practically quoted from Daniel's dreams. And his dreams, though they were interpreted in the Bible, have been reinterpreted by men to come up with this seven year time span followed by the also speculative literal thousand years. Read it again without prejudice. There are other schools of thought concerning the seven weeks, the times, time and a half time etc. Learn them all---then decide. It is easy enough to do on the internet.

 

2 hours ago, BibleWords said:

All troubles of the church down through the years are terrible, of course, but you surely cannot equate these expected trials with the great tribulation.

Matt. 24:21–“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

This verse, spoken by Jesus, clearly tells us that the trouble of the church down through time does not compare with the great tribulation.

Surely you must see this

I believe they will get worse and "we ain't seen nothin yet." Certainly the persecution of the church and her people will be worse and worldwide, not just in pockets. And yes I can see it building towards that. But how does that equate to a rapture or a literal seven years or 3 and a half years of it?

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, SACREDWARRIOR said:

It occurred to me that nowhere in the NEW or OLD TESTAMENT was a 7 year period mentioned...

 All common positions, PRE - MID -PRE WRATH - POST , consider an end time event period of 7 years.......Yet the Bible when speaking to the close of humanity, speaks only of 3 & 1/2 years.

You are absolutely correct about there being no explicit mention of a 7-year period in the End Times.

Those who teach this all have to project their own assumptions into various texts to arrive at their conclusions. Their primary text being Daniel 9:27, which says absolutely nothing about the latter days, end times, or any other such term. The events of Daniel 9:27 were, however, completely fulfilled in every detail during the Jewish War of 66/67-73 AD.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

There is, however, an End Time prophecy that speaks of a period of 40 years: Ezekiel 29:11-13.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2753-egypt-part-1-its-coming-40-year-desolation/

 

[Arial]

4 minutes ago, farouk said:

Well, I I just don't see that in Scripture Israel - and all its context - and the church - and all its context - are the same. Even though some of Israel were indeed justified by faith (Hebrews 11), the emphasis seems to be on earthly blessings for Israel and spiritual blessings (Ephesians 1) for the church.

I have to say you said that more clearly and definitively than I have ever heard any other proponent put it.

And I can clearly see (and even sometimes wrestle with it because of the scripture wording) that in the Prophets it could be taken that way. And then I remember that the spiritual and the natural are working concurrently. There is a natural Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem. Earthly ark of the covenant and later the temple that Solomon built according to the pattern of those in heaven. There were the children of Abraham---those of the slave woman Hagar, earth, and those of the promise Sarah. Law and Promise. There is  Mt. Sinai the place of the Law. And there is the new covenant---Mt. Zion where He has set His King. Ps 2.  The covenant of Promise.

There is a covenant of possession of the land. Sinai. There is a covenant of eternal life in His kingdom. Mt. Zion. And here comes the promised King! Making of the two one,  not one in the land, but one in the promise. All the promises made to Israel are fulfilled in true Israel, faithful Israel---the Lord Jesus Christ. There are not two redemptions. One for land and power and the other for spiritual blessings.

[BibleWords]

8 minutes ago, Arial said:

Why do you think that is related in any way to the "rapture" without reading that into it? You are missapplying the scripture. It is a historical account. The righteous Noah had to be saved out of that judgement. Otherwise there would be no one. The whole world was about to be flooded.

 

Did those who escaped see the wrath of God? Were they raptured out of it? They escaped His wrath. And Christians will always escape His wrath. They will never face His wrath against them. That does not mean they won't be around during it. They often have been, even in the Bible.

 

How does one jump from Jesus promising them a place in the kingdom to Him telling them His bride will be raptured before the also speculative seven year tribulation. A great deal of Rev is practically quoted from Daniel's dreams. And his dreams, though they were interpreted in the Bible, have been reinterpreted by men to come up with this seven year time span followed by the also speculative literal thousand years. Read it again without prejudice. There are other schools of thought concerning the seven weeks, the times, time and a half time etc. Learn them all---then decide. It is easy enough to do on the internet.

 

I believe they will get worse and "we ain't seen nothin yet." Certainly the persecution of the church and her people will be worse and worldwide, not just in pockets. And yes I can see it building towards that. But how does that equate to a rapture or a literal seven years or 3 and a half years of it?

Just one example you brought up.

The millennial reign.

Rev. 20 repeats several times that there will be a 1000 year reign.  This is not speculation as it is right there in the Bible.

But I know, you spiritualize that part.  You do not believe that is literal either.  Literal interpretation verses spiritualizing.

One more thing.  When the text of Scripture is spiritualized you can make it mean or not mean anything you want.

I’ll stick with the literal Word of God.

[Arial]

1 minute ago, BibleWords said:

Just one example you brought up.

The millennial reign.

Rev. 20 repeats several times that there will be a 1000 year reign.  This is not speculation as it is right there in the Bible.

But I know, you spiritualize that part.  You do not believe that is literal either.  Literal interpretation verses spiritualizing.

One more thing.  When the text of Scripture is spiritualized you can make it mean or not mean anything you want.

I’ll stick with the literal Word of God.

I do not deny that it says 1000 years. The question is not whether it is "spiritualized" or literal. Literal in the context of interpreting the Bible means to interpret it according to the type of genre it is---the type of writing. IOW historical narratives interpreted historically, poetry according to interpretive tools for poetry, symbolic as symbolic etc. Much of the prophetic literature in the Bible makes heavy use of symbols and representatives---many of the representatives being numerical. The book of Revelation is apocalyptic prophecy. That is, it is future and past events revealed through the use of symbols and representatives. Therefore to do this is not "spiritualizing" the book or the symbols, it is interpreting it literally according to its genre.

And the suggested meaning of these symbols and numbers is not made up out of the blue in a speculative manner. They obtain their meaning from other portions of scripture and the whole counsel of God in the scriptures. The numbers used in Rev are repeated over and over throughout the scriptures always uniformly as the same basic representation. So your suggestion as to what I do with the book of Revelation or any book of scripture in the Bible is wrong and therefore is irrelevant to making your assertions.

 

 

[Marathoner]

It would be good to gain some perspective with regard to tribulation, particularly of the kind which had never been witnessed in the ancient world before.

When the Word made flesh was born, approximately 100 million people lived upon this earth. From 1492 to the present, roughly 70 million indigenous Americans perished during the European colonization of the Americas. That's the equivalent of 70% of the ancient world's population.

In ancient times, the casualties of war numbered in the hundreds or thousands. After the advent of explosives and other weapons of mass destruction, the casualties of war numbered millions. 

The plagues of the ancient world were limited in scope and thus, claimed the lives of hundreds. After the advent of swift transportation, tens of millions have died from diseases and plagues over the past 700 years. 

Before the Word was made flesh, they killed the prophets. After His crucifixion and ascension, the saints have been slaughtered in the millions over the past 2,000 years. We continue to be killed for the testimony of Christ in different parts of the world. 

Nuclear weapons have been used in war. Their like was unimaginable to the ancients. A nuclear warhead detonated in a population center is devastating beyond belief. Not only is everything destroyed, but both the land and water are poisoned for decades after the blast. 

Centuries after the last apostle passed on, there has been tribulation the likes of which was never seen before. And yet, here we are now in the midst of great tribulation: wars... famines... plagues... earthquakes, and one disaster after the other. The Lord never promised that we wouldn't suffer while we remain in this world. We are only spared from His wrath. His wrath is not our portion.