Who Is Fallen Babylon?

[Last Daze]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:26 PM, ChristB4us said:

Pre trib rapture is when Jesus will judge His House first as the Bridegroom for why He is warning saved believers to be ready as found abiding in Him & not in iniquity or else.

There is only one resurrection/changed rapture event.

At the last trump

The trump of God

On the last day

The day of the Lord

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of armies will protect them.
And they will devour and trample on the slingstones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them on that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are like the precious stones of a crown,
Sparkling on His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

The timing is right there.  It's not pretrib.

[ChristB4us]

17 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You will closely note you haven't provided scripture to support your claim of a pre-trib rapture, because none exist in the Holy Bible

The marriage supper will take place in the eternal kingdom "After" Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

I had provided scripture but instead of rightly applying them for what those scriptures is about, you went somewhere else.  Let us try this one.

Luke 14:15-24

If the rapture is at the end of the great tribulation for when they will have the Marriage Supper, then explain how those invited are making excuses not to come to the King's Supper for the everyday cares of life?

You really think saved believers will be excusing themselves for the everyday cares of life at the end of the great tribulation?  That they be buying and selling, and feeling free to marry even? 

This warning is for believers now before the great tribulation comes.  It is now that believers can have their sights and hearts on the treasures of this earth.

That warning from Jesus is about missing the Marriage Supper in Heaven which requires leaving the earth and so it cannot be at the end of the great tribulation. 

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

There is only one resurrection/changed rapture event.

At the last trump

The trump of God

On the last day

The day of the Lord

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of armies will protect them.
And they will devour and trample on the slingstones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them on that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are like the precious stones of a crown,
Sparkling on His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

The timing is right there.  It's not pretrib.

Luke 14:15-24

Check that link to that scripture reference above.

If the rapture is at the end of the great tribulation for when they will have the Marriage Supper, then explain how those invited are making excuses not to come to the King's Supper for the everyday cares of life?

You really think saved believers will be excusing themselves for the everyday cares of life at the end of the great tribulation?  That they be buying and selling, and feeling free to marry even? 

This warning is for believers now before the great tribulation comes.  It is now that believers can have their sights and hearts on the treasures of this earth.

That warning from Jesus is about missing the Marriage Supper in Heaven which requires leaving the earth and so it cannot be at the end of the great tribulation. 

[Last Daze]

16 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 14:15-24

Check that link to that scripture reference above.

If the rapture is at the end of the great tribulation for when they will have the Marriage Supper, then explain how those invited are making excuses not to come to the King's Supper for the everyday cares of life?

You really think saved believers will be excusing themselves for the everyday cares of life at the end of the great tribulation?  That they be buying and selling, and feeling free to marry even? 

This warning is for believers now before the great tribulation comes.  It is now that believers can have their sights and hearts on the treasures of this earth.

That warning from Jesus is about missing the Marriage Supper in Heaven which requires leaving the earth and so it cannot be at the end of the great tribulation. 

I prefer the word of God according to Zechariah over human reasoning.  Do you have a scripture that shows God sounding a trump later than the one in Zechariah?  If not, maybe a rethink of things is in order.  If so, please post it.

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I had provided scripture but instead of rightly applying them for what those scriptures is about, you went somewhere else.  Let us try this one.

Luke 14:15-24

If the rapture is at the end of the great tribulation for when they will have the Marriage Supper, then explain how those invited are making excuses not to come to the King's Supper for the everyday cares of life?

You really think saved believers will be excusing themselves for the everyday cares of life at the end of the great tribulation?  That they be buying and selling, and feeling free to marry even? 

This warning is for believers now before the great tribulation comes.  It is now that believers can have their sights and hearts on the treasures of this earth.

That warning from Jesus is about missing the Marriage Supper in Heaven which requires leaving the earth and so it cannot be at the end of the great tribulation. 

You want to reason that humans are on earth while the Marriage supper takes place in heaven "Wrong"

The scripture below talks of the eternal kingdom appointed in the New Heaven and Earth where the Marriage Supper takes place, and the final judgment is seen with the Apostles judging the 12 tribes, this earth is gone as seen in Revelation 21:1-5

Luke 22:29-30KJV

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

[ChristB4us]

14 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I prefer the word of God according to Zechariah over human reasoning.  Do you have a scripture that shows God sounding a trump later than the one in Zechariah?  If not, maybe a rethink of things is in order.  If so, please post it.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus descending from Heaven where His voice sounds like a trumpet is not the same as if it was the "last" of the seven trumpets in Revelation that an angel blew.

Revelation 9:14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

The seventh angel in Revelation 10th chapter roared but no mention of a trumpet but we know that he had one.

So the Lord speaking is different than the angel with the last trump.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Note the underlined portion of that verse 1 ?

So the warnings and exhortations to the 7 churches in Revelation was done at the end of Revelation 3rd chapter as the Lord shall show John what will happen after that judgment on God's House at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

By addressing your reference in Zechariah 14:1-5, this has Jesus coming back with the saints in touching down on the Mount of Olives in doing battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem.  That means He is no longer in the air.

When we compare with Revelation 19:1-10 , that Marriage Supper is held in Heaven.

Then in Revelation 19:11-21 is when the Heaven opens again, and He comes with the saints to battle the world's armies & vanquishing them.

So the battle is over.

In Revelation 20:1-6 is when Satan is in the pit for a thousand years after the defeat of the world's armies and THEN the first resurrection takes place.

So who were the saints that came back with Jesus when Jesus battled the world's armies marching against Jerusalem?

Now for addressing what "first resurrection" is meaning in Revelation 20:1-6.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

That is all first resurrection was to mean that this resurrection after the great tribulation was to happen "first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected at that Great White Throne Judgment.

[ChristB4us]

16 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You want to reason that humans are on earth while the Marriage supper takes place in heaven "Wrong"

The scripture below talks of the eternal kingdom appointed in the New Heaven and Earth where the Marriage Supper takes place, and the final judgment is seen with the Apostles judging the 12 tribes, this earth is gone as seen in Revelation 21:1-5

Luke 22:29-30KJV

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

You can apply that when He sets up His kingdom of Heaven on earth but that does not negate the Marriage Supper held in Heaven before He comes as that King of kings as this is testified in Revelation 19:1-10 before the heaven opened for Him to return with the saints to do battle and defeat them in Revelation 19:11-21.

Revelation 19th Chapter

[truth7t7]

On 6/17/2023 at 9:22 AM, ChristB4us said:

You can apply that when He sets up His kingdom of Heaven on earth but that does not negate the Marriage Supper held in Heaven before He comes as that King of kings as this is testified in Revelation 19:1-10 before the heaven opened for Him to return with the saints to do battle and defeat them in Revelation 19:11-21.

Revelation 19th Chapter

Jesus isn't going to set up a kingdom on "this earth" as you claim

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, "dissolving this earth" by fire (The End)

2 Peter 3:10-12KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Edited June 18, 2023 by truth7t7

[farouk]

On 6/14/2023 at 12:27 PM, Last Daze said:

True.  The pretrib rapture is like a rubber crutch.  Don't put any weight on it.

Seen through the prism of 1 Cor. 10.32 - Who? as well as What? the pre-tribulation rapture does seem to make more sense, imho.

[farouk]

I think that it's also good not to be too dogmatic about things about which Scripture is not really specific, in terms of who exactly something refers to.