douggg Posted June 15, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2023 The woman clothed with the sun, the moon under feet, and crown of 12 stars - Israel The great red dragon - Satan The third part of the stars cast to the earth - the angels who sided with Satan The man child, caught up to God, and to His throne - Jesus The Lamb - Jesus The remnant of the woman's seed - them of the 12 tribes who do not flee into the wilderness quickly when they see the abomination statue image on the temple mount. They keep the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus - they will have become Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 15, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,052 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2023 20 hours ago, douggg said: The woman clothed with the sun, the moon under feet, and crown of 12 stars - Israel The great red dragon - Satan The third part of the stars cast to the earth - the angels who sided with Satan The man child, caught up to God, and to His throne - Jesus The Lamb - Jesus The remnant of the woman's seed - them of the 12 tribes who do not flee into the wilderness quickly when they see the abomination statue image on the temple mount. They keep the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus - they will have become Christians. There is a comprehensive thread on this matter called "The Man-Child". In it you will find some very good arguments why there would be difficulty with your list. God bless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 16, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: There is a comprehensive thread on this matter called "The Man-Child". In it you will find some very good arguments why there would be difficulty with your list. God bless Specifically, what part of my list? There are seven pages for that thread. Could you please get right to the point and who are others saying the man-child in Revelation 12:4-5 is, other than the man-child being Jesus ? Edited June 16, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 203 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,476 Content Per Day: 6.17 Reputation: 2,326 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted June 16, 2023 49 minutes ago, douggg said: Specifically, what part of my list? There are seven pages for that thread. Could you please get right to the point and who are others saying the man-child in Revelation 12:4-5 is, other than the man-child being Jesus ? I only have time for a quick comment here now - Who are "they" who overcome in this chapter? The answer to that is the answer to who is responsible for having Satan cast down (man child). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 16, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: I only have time for a quick comment here now - Who are "they" who overcome in this chapter? The answer to that is the answer to who is responsible for having Satan cast down (man child). The they in Revelation 12:10 are the Jews who will turn to Jesus and the plan of salvation in middle of the seven years, after their perceived messiah (the Antichrist) betrays them. God is the One who is responsible for having Satan and his angels cast down to earth, as God begins dismantling Satan and his angels' mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great, responsible for all that have been slain upon the earth (Revelation 18:24). Also, it is part of God's plan to specifically to bring Satan's free roaming days of evil to an end. God's plan for that found in Ezekiel 28:16-19. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Behind all of the ills to creation is Satan the father of lies - beginning when he whispered into the serpent beast's ear of what to say to beguile and deceive Eve, and Adam into sin. Edited June 16, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 203 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,476 Content Per Day: 6.17 Reputation: 2,326 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted June 16, 2023 @douggg I thought to post the list @AdHoc gave us over on that large man-child thread. It is a very good list regarding the different views of who the man-child and woman in Rev 12 are. Take a look and consider what he says. ****************************************************************** I'm with you. For the Man-Child to be our Lord Jesus, scripture has to be ignored. Our Lord Jesus was not born to a "sign". Mary was real Our Lord Jesus was not was not raptured at birth Our Lord Jesus was firstborn to Mary. The Woman in Revelation 12 has other seed before the Man-Child because "they remain" Our Lord Jesus was not raptured to escape the Dragon. He face him fully from Gethsemane onward Our Lord Jesus did not displace Satan when He ascended. Satan is still the "prince of the power of the air" For Jesus to be the Man-Child the Woman had to be Mary Mary was not in heaven Mary is not crowned before the birth of Jesus Mary is not clothed with the sun Mary never has the moon under her feet Mary never flees to the wilderness Mary flees to Egypt but not for 1260 days Mary had Jesus as firstborn. There could therefore be no *remnant" of her seed when Jesus was born For those who claim that the Woman is Israel must explain ... How Israel was in heaven How Israel is a "sign in heaven" How Israel travailed in birth How Israel is crowned with stars before Jesus is born How Israel is clothed with the sun How Israel, God's earthly people, have the moon under its feet How Israel was driven into the wilderness AFTER Jesus was born How Israel brought forth seed "that keep the commandments of God" How Israel has seed that "has the testimony of Jesus Christ" How Israel is one Woman when they came from four women and were dived into two nations How Israel is helped by the earth in the wilderness when God supplied her But if the Man-Child is the Overcomers, then there are no obstacles The Man-Child is to rule the Nations The Man-Child needed the blood of the Lamb The Man-Child is raptured when Satan has but a little time (around 7 years) The Man-Child is the last seed of the woman The only other "Mother" of those who keep the commandments of God and who have the testimony of Jesus is New Jerusalem (Gal.4.26) The only other "Mother" who is at the same time heavenly but on earth is New Jerusalem (Rev.21) The only other Mother who has the number of 12 is New Jerusalem The only other Mother who is crowned is New Jerusalem (Rev.22:5) The Woman is clothed with the sun. Jesus is the "sun of righteousness". New Jerusalem has "the glory of God" Now, only TWO entities will rule the nations with a rod of iron - EITHER Jesus, OR The Overcomers (Rev.2:27, 19:15). There is not one indication that it is Jesus in Revelation 12. All difficulties disappear if it is the Overcomers. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,052 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2023 11 hours ago, douggg said: Specifically, what part of my list? There are seven pages for that thread. Could you please get right to the point and who are others saying the man-child in Revelation 12:4-5 is, other than the man-child being Jesus ? Okay. This is not about being right or wrong. It's a fun discussion where you get another brother's argument and match it to yours. You've been studying the Bible and so have I. You've got something to edify me with and visa versa. If you've only just glanced at the list above, you will know that making the Woman of Revelation 12 either Mary or Israel, is not going to be so easy. So let's start with the Book and Chapter itself. Revelation (or "Apocalypse") means "The Revealing" or "The Unveiling" and it pertains to the single greatest event in history (when its all said and done) - the glorious REVEALING of Jesus from heaven to establish a New Government on earth. The Book is divided, by its own words, into what has been, what is, and what shall be. It pertains to the end of the age when Christ is revealed to all men. Chapter 11 records what is predicted to happen in Jerusalem during the fateful 1260 days of Great Tribulation. Chapter 12 records what happens with THREE SEEDS of a heavenly Woman during the last 1260 days. When it says that Satan (the Dragon) had but a short while, it means 3½ years. 1260 days is the time-frame from the Dragon cast out of heaven till the end when the Dragon is bound in an Abyss. Before we explain the Woman, let us not waste time on the Man-Child. Only TWO entities of the whole Bible will rule the nations with a rod of iron. the Man-Child can only be Jesus or the Overcomers from the Church (Rev.2:27, 19:15). We also do not need to waste time on the phrase "Keep the commandments of God". In every mention of the "commandments of God" in the Old Testament, the Law of Moses is meant. In the New Testament the same applies except for two exceptions. It is safe to say that the Woman's seed who "keep the commandments of God" are the Jewish Remnant predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and Romans 9 and 11. The Woman is (i) a sign, (ii) in heaven, (iii) a Mother, (iv) has produced THREE SEEDS, (v) is pregnant in heaven but gives birth to the Man-Child on earth, (vi) has a crown, (vii) treads on the moon, (viii) is clothed with the sun, and (ix) flees to a wilderness for 1260 days. She cannot be Mary (see list) and she cannot be Israel (see list). There are TWO facts to tell us who she is. (i) She is MOTHER of both Jew and Church member - Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ and those who keep the commandments of God. This constellation occurs three times more in the Bible. 1. the Olive Tree which has Christ as the "holy" stem, Jews cut out but later grafted in, and Christians, unnatural branches grafted in but in danger of being cut out again. 2. Galatians 4:26. Throughout Galatians Paul CONTRASTS Christian and Jew, grace and the Law, flesh and the Spirit. But suddenly Paul declares that throughout all these CONTRASTS we have the SAME MOTHER - New Jerusalem. 3. New Jerusalem itself. There we have a City with God's glory. the walls of the city are based on 12 Apostles and the Gates of the city are based on the 12 Tribes of Israel. (ii) We must take Joseph's dream in Genesis 37 into account. The list shows what is not the same, but one thing is the same - the number 12 representing the totality of God's people on earth. New Jerusalem has a wall with 12 foundations and the city has 12 gates - all God's people. The evidence is as follows for the Man-Child. The Man-Child is produced at the end of the age when the last 1260 days are looming. The Man-Child needed the blood of Christ. The Man-Child is raptured to the Throne. The only other people to do this are the "Firstfruits" of the earth who were redeemed "from among men" and "redeemed from the earth" in Chapter 14:1-5. The "Man" part shows the Male part - the stronger part when contrasted with its opposite, the woman. the Man-Child is a "they". The Man-Child "Overcame". As already said, the Man-Child will rule the Nations with a rod of iron. Not one of these facts apply to Jesus. the Man-Child must be the OVERCOMERS from the Church (Rev.2:27). The company of those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are those Christians who did not overcome and must apss through the Great Tribulation (seen in Chapter 7:9-17). The company of those "who keep the commandments of God" are the Israelite Remnant who turn back to the Law and oppose the Beast and the rest of Israel who allow the Beast to sit in the Temple. These are just the main arguments. A book could be written (of which there are many). Note. The four-fold constellation of Israel and the Church is not to show the Church and its privileges. It is to show the state of Christ's Kingdom. In Romans 11 the Olive Tree shows the state of Christ's Kingdom in this age when Israel are removed for unbelief. Galatians shows the Church in danger of turning to Moses. Galatians shows the catastrophe of the Church tunring back to the Law. Revelation 12 shoes the culmination of the matte at the end of the age with an Israelite Remnant and Christian Overcomers. Ne Jerusalem shows the consummation of God's plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 16, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, AdHoc said: The Woman is (i) a sign, (ii) in heaven, (iii) a Mother, (iv) has produced THREE SEEDS, (v) is pregnant in heaven but gives birth to the Man-Child on earth, (vi) has a crown, (vii) treads on the moon, (viii) is clothed with the sun, and (ix) flees to a wilderness for 1260 days. She cannot be Mary (see list) and she cannot be Israel (see list). There are TWO facts to tell us who she is. Hi AdHoc, What translation are you using ? In the kjv, it is not a sign but "a great wonder" 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Back in Genesis 37, Joseph had a dream similar to the great wonder John saw. kjv Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? Which his father's reply indicates that Joseph's dream was about Israel. The woman in Revelation 12 gave birth to a man-child. In Isaiah 9:6 unto us (Israel) a child is born. The man-child, the son, in that verse is Jesus. kjv Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ------------------------------------------------------------- So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. And the man-child is Jesus. ------------------------------------------------------------- Satan in Revelation 12:4 attempted to kill Jesus as soon as he was born. kjv Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Satan, through Herod, attempted to kill Jesus as soon as he was born, with Herod's order to kill all infants under the age of 2, in Matthew 2:1-23. Edited June 16, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,052 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2023 4 hours ago, douggg said: Hi AdHoc, What translation are you using ? In the kjv, it is not a sign but "a great wonder" 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Back in Genesis 37, Joseph had a dream similar to the great wonder John saw. kjv Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? Which his father's reply indicates that Joseph's dream was about Israel. The woman in Revelation 12 gave birth to a man-child. In Isaiah 9:6 unto us (Israel) a child is born. The man-child, the son, in that verse is Jesus. kjv Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ------------------------------------------------------------- So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. And the man-child is Jesus. ------------------------------------------------------------- Satan in Revelation 12:4 attempted to kill Jesus as soon as he was born. kjv Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Satan, through Herod, attempted to kill Jesus as soon as he was born, with Herod's order to kill all infants under the age of 2, in Matthew 2:1-23. Hi Douggg, Thanks for the reply. I use the KJV mostly. If you check up you will see that the Greek word rendered "wonder" in Chapter 12 is "semeion" and actually means "sign". It is correctly rendered in John 20:30. "Wonder" is not wrong but "sign" is the meaning. @Vine Abider published my list of objections in this thread. If you go to the second last list in the posting you will see why Joseph's dream cannot be used to find out who the woman is. It has only ONE commonality - number 12 is the totality of God's people on earth. Every other detail differs somewhat. As to Isaiah 9:6 it carries no proof of who the woman is. The same designation is given, which happens all over scripture. In Acts 19:32 for instance, a heathen political ruling party is called "Ekklesia" - the same designation as the House of the Living God in many other places. We would not call the Church an Assembly of Ephesian politicians based on that usage. Nor does "Man-Child" in Isaiah make the Woman Israel. But what do you think? If the Man-Child of Isaiah 9:6 is Jesus, which it is, then the Woman must Mary. A man cannot be born to a Nation. It needs a woman (1st Cor.11.12). Did Satan stand before Mary to devour her child as she delivered? May I respectfully suggest you study my lists. If you let them stand you openly agree with them. It is there you will defeat me if you show me to be wrong. But I can assure you they are the product of 30 years of study. In most cases I produced 7 to 8 proofs. Only 2 are needed to establsih something. That is, if two of the 8 are correct, my point is made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted June 16, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 774 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,950 Content Per Day: 3.05 Reputation: 1,984 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2023 On 6/15/2023 at 8:04 AM, douggg said: The woman clothed with the sun, the moon under feet, and crown of 12 stars - Israel The great red dragon - Satan The third part of the stars cast to the earth - the angels who sided with Satan The man child, caught up to God, and to His throne - Jesus The Lamb - Jesus The remnant of the woman's seed - them of the 12 tribes who do not flee into the wilderness quickly when they see the abomination statue image on the temple mount. They keep the commandment of God and have the testimony of Jesus - they will have become Christians. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/227900-woman-of-revelation-12/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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