Whom He Wills, He Hardens

[Mr. M]

21 minutes ago, Alive said:

Everyone of us in Christ…he replaced a heart of stone with one of flesh.

Hebrews 4:

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

"“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Any time a believer ignores the convictions of the heart when the Lord speaks to them

risks hardening their hearts and entering into their own works.

[Alive]

33 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Hebrews 4:

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

"“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Any time a believer ignores the convictions of the heart when the Lord speaks to them

risks hardening their hearts and entering into their own works.

Now you are talking about those who have been regenerated and the process of sanctification.

Not being at my desk earlier, I was reading Romans 9 in my old leatherbound bible and I have a note I wrote many years ago in the margin next to the section starting in verse 18.

Rom. 9:14 (NAS20S)    What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there?   Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who   runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Rom. 9:19 (NAS20S)    You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you,   you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

In verse 19 Paul establishes a challenge and then answers the challenge.

You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

My note: "Paul's logic: he could have gotten out of this easily by saying 'God knew who would believe ahead of time' and thereby acquit God, but he doesn't. Rather He lets the narrative stand as is.

[farouk]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Ok…good. I anchor my understanding at the start. Scripture teaches us all fallen men have hard hearts toward God. We start there as a baseline.

Whatever else we read in scripture must be seen in that light.

This indeed points to the great need for intervention in grace: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2.4-5).

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Now you are talking about those who have been regenerated and the process of sanctification.

Not being at my desk earlier, I was reading Romans 9 in my old leatherbound bible and I have a note I wrote many years ago in the margin next to the section starting in verse 18.

Rom. 9:14 (NAS20S)    What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there?   Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who   runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Rom. 9:19 (NAS20S)    You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you,   you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

In verse 19 Paul establishes a challenge and then answers the challenge.

You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

My note: "Paul's logic: he could have gotten out of this easily by saying 'God knew who would believe ahead of time' and thereby acquit God, but he doesn't. Rather He lets the narrative stand as is.

The context with Faraoh is in the Old Testament and after the time the Lord had separated the world when he separated Abraham and his chosen seed after him to be his people and have a Nation out of them...

That was the beginning of the people of God in their Patriarh Abraham and his chosen seed to Issac and to Jacob and beginning with Jacob to all his children. 

The Lord established them as Abraham's chosen children from the rest of the children of Abraham and Isaac by repeating to them the promises he had made to Abraham and entering into a Covenant with them.  

 

[Your closest friendnt]

 

1 hour ago, farouk said:

This indeed points to the great need for intervention in grace: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2.4-5).

Paul had realized that he was also dead in his sins before he believed in Jesus Christ. 

In the same way as the Gentiles were dead in their Sins...(they did not have to have the same sins, but both Jews and Gentiles were dead in their sins after Jesus death on the Cross.  

Paul had come to realized that when he continued in the Law and in the Atonement in the Law after Jesus death on the Cross he was still in his sins...that the Atonement in the Law who continued after the New Covenant in the shed blood of Jesus Christ was in effect that the Atonements in the Law were not honor by God and that he was in his sins and he had to believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins...the same way for both Gentiles and the Jews they both had to believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. 

The Gentiles who were never alive to God or who were dead to God before the Cross had to see them selves only that they were as they were in their sins...they had to set everything aside in their minds and not go back to history and see them selves as the people who were always dead to God and to be made alive to God they had to joint the Jews in becoming procylites and adhere to be obedient to the Law...

They had to see the time the Gospel was preached to them that the Jews also were dead to God...and that they also like them they had to believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins to be alive to God...

They had to see that the people with the Circumcision and their obedience to the Covenant of Sinai were dead to God and they also like them the Gentiles had to have their sins forgiven and be alive to God by believing in Jesus Christ. 

In this way they would be Circumcision proof and from keeping the Law proof...from the Zelots who tried to put them under the bondage of the Circumcision because they Zelots who tried to put them under the Circumcision they were with the Circumcision dead to God and in their sins. 

And they also had to believe in Jesus Christ as they were...because as they were with all their decorations they were boasting about of Being the chosen seed of Abraham and the children of the Circumcision ...were in their sins dead to God and they also had to believe in Jesus Christ to become alive to God. 

They who once were alive to God because they were the chosen seed of Abraham now were also dead to God and in their sins and the Gospel was preached also to them to make them alive to God in Jesus Christ. 

The main point is that the disobedience of Adam is never mentioned..that they were in the disobedience of someone else even Adam's was never mentioned..and it must be a reason why...because the Jews were not in Adam they were in Abraham....and Abraham was separated from Adam.   

That whether someone is in his sins or not is mentioned. 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[farouk]

On 6/21/2023 at 9:28 AM, Mr. M said:

Hebrews 4:

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

"“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Any time a believer ignores the convictions of the heart when the Lord speaks to them

risks hardening their hearts and entering into their own works.

@Mr. M Indeed; solemn consideration............

[com7fy8]

On 6/21/2023 at 9:02 AM, Alive said:

I have never heard anyone claiming God is random or capricious.

They are saying He would be, if He chooses who gets saved and who doesn't. If all have sinned and God chooses only certain ones, they are saying that would be random and capricious . . . to do what is not equal with sinners who all are in sin together. 

But God does every thing with His purpose. Every choice He makes is with His purpose. 

So, what about how God's word says God "hardens" someone? 

How does a worm get hardened? First, the worm is dead, on the sidewalk. And in the sunshine the worm does not benefit from the sunshine, because it is dead, but instead the worm rots and then stinks. And after a while of sun shining on the worm, then is when the worm gets hardened. It is hardened by the sunshine which is so life-giving. But the character of the worm is the problem; the worm is dead, by character, so it rots and hardens, even right in the sunshine which is life-giving.

So, may be we could say it is a fact that God hardens a love-dead sinner, but it is the fault of the sinner's nature, how he or she rots and stinks and then hardens, even right in the light of God's love.

 

[Alive]

25 minutes ago, com7fy8 said:

So, may be we could say it is a fact that God hardens a love-dead sinner, but it is the fault of the sinner's nature, how he or she rots and stinks and then hardens, even right in the light of God's love.

This is where God steps in. Grace. Unmerited favor that not a single soul deserves.

To truly understand Grace, we need to understand the degree of undeserved that is present.

Every single member of Adam's race is headed for destruction...God chooses Life for some according to His Plan.

Just as God yanked Abraham out from an idolatrous nation and people to be the Father of a Chosen Nation, He yanks His elect from among all the peoples of Adam's race, to become His very own sons.

[com7fy8]

10 minutes ago, Alive said:

to become His very own sons.

"For whom He foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, I see how our Father is so pleased with how Jesus is, that He wants to have many children who are so pleasing to Him like His Son is. 

So, Jesus is the One who really is chosen! 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

This is where God steps in. Grace. Unmerited favor that not a single soul deserves.

To truly understand Grace, we need to understand the degree of undeserved that is present.

Every single member of Adam's race is headed for destruction...God chooses Life for some according to His Plan.

Just as God yanked Abraham out from an idolatrous nation and people to be the Father of a Chosen Nation, He yanks His elect from among all the peoples of Adam's race, to become His very own sons.

(@Alive, this is copy and paste from your post above. "This is where God steps in. Grace. Unmerited favor that not a single soul deserves. To truly understand Grace, we need to understand the degree of undeserved that is present.") 

@Alive it seems that you are forgetting to consider that the events with Pharaoh in the passage put forth for discussion took place before the Sinai Covenant and for that matter before the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. 

During the events of Moses and Faraoh "the Lord God Almighty" the Creator of all had decided that only the (chosen seed of Abraham) was eligible to be his people and not anyone else..and required from them to do one thing to complied with the Covenant of Cirumcision..to Circumcised their children on the specific day in their Covenant...

God had decided that only the chosen descendents of Abraham were eligible to be part of his people.

God had decided only on eligibility but the eligible parties had to decide if they wanted to be part of the people of God with their compliance to the terms in the Covenant of Cirumcision God had made with Abraham. 

Pharaoh said the Egyptians locked eligibility they were not from the chosen seed of Abraham and as this made Pharaoh ineligible God will never invite Pharaoh to be part of his people...

To the contrary it is God who said to Pharaoh that "Israel is my first born and I do not want any other " (referring to the Nation of Israel).

The Lord will not make that statement to Pharaoh unless there was a notion from Pharaoh that the Lord accepts that the Israelites can sacrifice to the Lord while are in Egypt or within Egypt and did not have to go to the dessert. 

Pharaoh proposed that the Israelites can sacrifice to the Lord while in Egypt...

Which the LORD took as invitation from Pharaoh to be also one of the Gods of Egypt..

And told flat out to Pharaoh that it has been decided that he can only be the God of "Israel".

Pharaoh's heart was firm in decision not to let the Israelites go to the dessert to worship the Lord with sacrifices and bring their children with them because he suspected that they will not come back...

The Lord did not denied that he did not say to Pharaoh that if he let them go to the dessert that they will come back. 

Pharaoh did not let the Israelites go to the dessert because they wouldn't come back...and the Lord forced Pharaoh to let them go after the death of the first born. 

Pharaoh knew that the Lord was taking the Israelites out of Egypt and resisted the Lord...knowing that he could not win...but he could not used his army to fight the Lord....he used his God's who they failed him. 

Has nothing to do with the grace of God which came with Jesus Christ.