It Is Not For You To Know!

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Your input on these passages that I quoted in another thread would be very helpful!

 

If you will allow, I will answer the OP, not with a timeline, but with a very basic structure of prophecy.

Except for the Books of Daniel and Jonah, and some excerpts, the Old Testament deals with the history and future of Israel. The Church and the Kingdom of the Heavens are not mentioned. That does not mean that the Kingdom age is not mentioned. On the contrary, it is well mentioned, but as the Messianic Age.

The reason so much prophecy goes to Israel is simple. God made a Covenant with Abraham consisting of PROMISES. 430 years later, God made another Covenant with the Seed of Abraham, the conditions of which threatened to overturn the first Covenant. God's honor is at stake. In the Covenant of PROMISE the Land of Canaan is PROMISED as an "everlasting possession". The only condition on Abraham and his seed was that males be circumcised. But in the Covenant of Law, the Israelite was obliged to keep about 620 laws and statutes, and if he did not, he would be ejected from the Land. See the dilemma???

The whole matter would have had a happy ending except that man's flesh is utterly fallen and the Law addresses the flesh. This fact guarantees that Israel will lose their Land. It also almost guarantees that God must break one or both of the Covenants. If Israel lose the Land, the Covenant made with Abraham is broken. If Israel keep the Land, God tolerates sinfulness and does nothing about His broken Word.

The solution of course is the SUBSTITUTE SYSTEM. Israel well know this system. So do the heathen. Both sacrifice SUBSTITUTES. Both try to appease their Gods. Suffice to say that the God of the Bible, the only true owner of heaven and earth, set very high conditions for an acceptable substitute. No man could reach these standards - except One. So the bottom line is that Israel will not make the standard set by God, and will need a fully equipped Substitute. Only One makes it - our Lord Jesus.

Leaving that for a while, we turn to the book of Revelation. This Book contains information about the change of government on earth, but its main thrust is the events surrounding the Second Coming of Jesus - quasi the last 7 years of this age, or, Daniel's final week. Because the Church is supposed to be raptured to avoid the last three and one half years, all mention of her stops at Laodicea. That does not mean that Christians are not mentioned, but the Church is a "Household" and the rapture breaks the house up (Matt.24:43-44).

Returning to prophecy, we a can roughly say that God is extremely merciful, and gives Israel every advantage to bring in the Kingdom of Heaven ON EARTH. Prophecy is thus broken into THREE sections;
1. The present - Israel is sinning
2. Israel has sinned and is devastated by plagues
3. God will be faithful to His Covenants and restore Israel

The Church is given prophecy, but the atmosphere is different. The Church must live by faith, so their salient points in prophecy is usually MORAL. In the so-called Oliver Discourse, one can see the different prophecies clearly. From the questions in Matthew 24:3, the author speaks of Jewish things constantly from verse 3 to verse 31. the Temple, Synagogues, Jerusalem, Daniel, the Abomination of Desolation and the Sabbath restrictions re all Jewish. But then, in verse 32 our Lord starts to speak in Parables. According to Matthew 13, the parables are for the Church. Israel have the Kingdom ripped away from them and it is given to the Church. Notice that from Matthew 24: 32 onward to 25:30 is all about "servants" and their "performance". No events except the Fig Tree are given. Parables of MORAL fortitude are told to us.

Then, having dealt with Israel (who seek a sign), and the Church with no events but a certain LIFE, our Lord turns to the fate of "ALL NATIONS". These are CONTRASTED with the "least of the Lord's brethren". The judgment of the sheep and goats is not about FAITH. It is about WORKS. It is the fate of the UNBELIEVER. He/she is judged on how they treated one of God's people in the Great Tribulation.

Turning to Micah, a contemporary of Isaiah, God promises through him that Judah will not for ever stay in Babylon. But He does say that it will be grievous there. In Chapter 4 the prophecy leaves out the Church age. It goes from Israel being in Babylon to Israel returned to their Land. The stranger who lives in Israel must be subject to Israelite GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION. The rulership spoken of is LOCAL - within Israel.

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

The concern of the OP is the interpretation of prophecy

that rejects the admonitions of the book of Revelation.

All of the curses listed in Deuteronomy 28 came upon Israel

for failing to keep the Torah.

Daniel 9:

11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 

12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 

14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.

How much worse will it be for those who reject the instructions and admonitions 

of Revelation, as pointed out in the OP>from Revelation 1, and 22< and continue 

to argue and debate their interpretation, of which there is widespread disagreement.

And you, without hesitation bring that spirit onto a thread that is specifically posted

to warn against these actions! You do so to your own peril, and I would request that

you do so on another thread.

 

You do understand you just interpreted prophecy by claiming it was fulfilled don't you ?Your guilty of the very thing you are claiming others are doing.

 

 But If you thought it was bad for Israel before,how much worse will it be after the Israeli government gives almost everyone in Israel it's mark?

But I agree about the adding to and taking away.The evangelicals who also take the mark will be cast alive into a lake of fire.That is for sure.

I once saw a man add an entire new prophecy to the book.of revelation.He called it the pre tribulation rapture and said it takes place between chapter 3 and 4.That pastor has,since committed suicide.

 

PS,is it adding to anything in the bible if someone discusses Benjamin Netanyahu's mark that he wants to give everyone in Israel?Or is that just discussing the news?

Edited July 21, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is always dangerous to add to God's Word. It has the habit of making things complicated.

 

I get what you are saying, but he places it in parenthesis, which is saying this is my interpretation of said scriptures, as he did below.

Israel will rule the nations in the Lords land.(,kingdom of heaven)

Now while I disagree with his interpretation, this is no different than someone giving a scripture, then giving their interpretation below, except it all then can get lost in the shuffle. This is the way to give an interpretation of a scripture, even it it is wrong. If you wait and give all the interpretations below, it becomes convoluted and conflated, trying to give an interpretation at the bottom of each passage where you need to give three or four interpretations can get all mixed up by those reading, its just easier the way he did it, IMHO, and he thus is not saying God said this per se.

 

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I get what you are saying, but he places it in parenthesis, which is saying this is my interpretation of said scriptures, as he did below.

Israel will rule the nations in the Lords land.(,kingdom of heaven)

Now while I disagree with his interpretation, this is no different than someone giving a scripture, then giving their interpretation below, except it all then can get lost in the shuffle. This is the way to give an interpretation of a scripture, even it it is wrong. If you wait and give all the interpretations below, it becomes convoluted and conflated, trying to give an interpretation at the bottom of each passage where you need to give three or four interpretations can get all mixed up by those reading, its just easier the way he did it, IMHO, and he thus is not saying God said this per se.

 

I hear you brother. I only made a point of this because the additional words became the foundation of what came next. I believe that the foundation of anything should be in plain language, or, if obscure, it needs an explanation.

But you are correct. I even do what you said myself.

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Joshua is not the Lord .The land of the Lord was promised to our Lord.

Galatians 3:16

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
 

The land promised to our Lord becomes his at the sound of the seventh Trump.

Revelation 11:15

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

At present time the kingdom is governed by a beast with seven heads and ten horns.But after the seventh Trump it will be the land of the Lord and the remnant of Israel(who doesn't worship the beast) will then rule over the nations in the Lord's land  as Isaiah had prophecied.

At present time the beast is attempting to change laws .

You said that the Land is the Kingdom of God (past tense). Now you say that it becomes the kingdom of God at the seventh Trumpet, implying that it is not yet the Kingdom of God. Next you say that this is the Kingdom of God but it is ruled by the Beast. Is it not then the kingdom of the Beast? Finally, you say the Remnant of Israel will then reign over the Nations. But to be in the kingdom of God you must be born again and Baptized (Jn.3:3-5). And that birth is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13). But Israel are ALL concluded by God in UNBELIEF until Christ defeats the Gentiles. Maybe if you gave scriptures for your theory, scriptures that say it plainly, we could follow your argument.

But to the best of my knowledge there are none. Hebrews 11:1 says that faith can only be when the object is UNSEEN. Israel believe only AFTER Jesus is seen. There is then no faith EVER reported in Israel. The Lord Jesus even asked this question; "Will I find Faith ON EARTH when I COME ..." (Lk.18:8).

[Shilohsfoal]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You said that the Land is the Kingdom of God (past tense). Now you say that it becomes the kingdom of God at the seventh Trumpet, implying that it is not yet the Kingdom of God. Next you say that this is the Kingdom of God but it is ruled by the Beast. Is it not then the kingdom of the Beast? Finally, you say the Remnant of Israel will then reign over the Nations. But to be in the kingdom of God you must be born again and Baptized (Jn.3:3-5). And that birth is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13). But Israel are ALL concluded by God in UNBELIEF until Christ defeats the Gentiles. Maybe if you gave scriptures for your theory, scriptures that say it plainly, we could follow your argument.

But to the best of my knowledge there are none. Hebrews 11:1 says that faith can only be when the object is UNSEEN. Israel believe only AFTER Jesus is seen. There is then no faith EVER reported in Israel. The Lord Jesus even asked this question; "Will I find Faith ON EARTH when I COME ..." (Lk.18:8).

Wow.

You have just said that everyone in Israel doesn't believe in Christ.You claim none have been baptised.

Are you sure that all of Israel is in disbelief and reject Christ?Every single person?

 

Come on ,you can't lump everyone up like that.There is a remnant in Israel today who follow the lamb.

Mathew 24 is a good chapter where Jesus is speaking to the saints that are in the land of Israel at his coming.

 

As for the beast and the saints in Israel. This explains it all.

Daniel 7

¹⁹ Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

²⁰ And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

²¹ I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

²² Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

²³ Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

 

²⁴ And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

²⁵ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

²⁶ But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

²⁷ And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

²⁸ Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Wow.

You have just said that everyone in Israel doesn't believe in Christ.You claim none have been baptised.

Are you sure that all of Israel is in disbelief and reject Christ?Every single person?

 

Come on ,you can't lump everyone up like that.There is a remnant in Israel today who follow the lamb.

Mathew 24 is a good chapter where Jesus is speaking to the saints that are in the land of Israel at his coming.

No. I didn't say it. And you, and the other readers, know it too. But this is what the ALL-Mighty, Omniscient God  said: 

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. (Rom.11:31–32)

Maybe you want to rethink your words in light of God's Words.

[Mr. M]

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

No. I didn't say it. And you, and the other readers, know it too. But this is what the ALL-Mighty, Omniscient God  said: 

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. (Rom.11:31–32)

Maybe you want to rethink your words in light of God's Words.

If I may add a point here:

Romans 11:25  For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

In light of the  growing number of Jewish believers, whether they refer to themselves as "Messianic" or not (I have enjoyed fellowship with many Jews in Christ who did not, nor were they zealous for the Torah observance as many), as well the cock-eyed way many Gentiles are interpreting scripture in these days we would seem to be very near the end of the "times of the Gentiles", which will be confirmed when the present nation of Israel has complete control of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24(b) ...And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

No. I didn't say it. And you, and the other readers, know it too. But this is what the ALL-Mighty, Omniscient God  said: 

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. (Rom.11:31–32)

Maybe you want to rethink your words in light of God's Words.

Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin.

An Israelite .He and the apostles are proof that God baptized Israelites who believe in Christ just as he does today to the Israelites who believe in Christ.

And there are a small number in Israel who believe in Christ.There is a remnant in Israel today who worship God and who do not worship the beast and will not receive it's mark.

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

If I may add a point here:

Romans 11:25  For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

In light of the  growing number of Jewish believers, whether they refer to themselves as "Messianic" or not (I have enjoyed fellowship with many Jews in Christ who did not, nor were they zealous for the Torah observance as many), as well the cock-eyed way many Gentiles are interpreting scripture in these days we would seem to be very near the end of the "times of the Gentiles", which will be confirmed when the present nation of Israel has complete control of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24(b) ...And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The gentiles in Luke 21 have not arrived in Jerusalem yet.They are given to Israel 42 months before the time of the end .

Revelation 11

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

I think they still have a couple years before their deployment.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Shilohsfoal