Are carnal Christian’s saved?

[Stewardofthemystery]

Carnal meaning, a Christian who is not yet born again of the Holy Spirit.

[AdHoc]

23 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Carnal meaning, a Christian who is not yet born again of the Holy Spirit.

"Carnal" means "fleshly", and a person is not a Christian if they not born again. The vast difference can be seen in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. The Tares look like Wheat until the harvest. They represent counterfeit Christians. The look and speak like Christians but come from another seed. The Tares never become Wheat. "Fleshly" mean that their flesh dictates a majority of matters in their lives. These matters may be legitimate or illegal. Hunger is a legitimate need of the flesh. But to miss the meeting because you cannot contain yourself for 2 hours is fleshly.

If we apply these definitions then, your question is a good one. The answer is; how do we define "saved"? In one verse " saved " means you do not go to the Lake of Fire (Rom.5:9). In another "saved" means entering the Kingdom of Christ (Matt.19:24-25). In yet another a woman is "saved" by childbearing (1st Tim.2:15). And curiously eight souls were saved BY water (1st Pet.3:20), while the Ark saved these same eight FROM water ... !

[JimmyB]

38 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

"Carnal" means "fleshly", and a person is not a Christian if they not born again. The vast difference can be seen in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. The Tares look like Wheat until the harvest. They represent counterfeit Christians. The look and speak like Christians but come from another seed. The Tares never become Wheat. "Fleshly" mean that their flesh dictates a majority of matters in their lives. These matters may be legitimate or illegal. Hunger is a legitimate need of the flesh. But to miss the meeting because you cannot contain yourself for 2 hours is fleshly.

If we apply these definitions then, your question is a good one. The answer is; how do we define "saved"? In one verse " saved " means you do not go to the Lake of Fire (Rom.5:9). In another "saved" means entering the Kingdom of Christ (Matt.19:24-25). In yet another a woman is "saved" by childbearing (1st Tim.2:15). And curiously eight souls were saved BY water (1st Pet.3:20), while the Ark saved these same eight FROM water ... !

Matthew 13:24-30 (NRSVue), " He [Jesus] put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field, but while everybody was asleep an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28 He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he replied, ‘No, for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. Let both of them grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

I very strongly doubt that the weeds (tares) represent "carnal" Christians, since those seeds were sown by an enemy.  BTW, what is your definition of a "carnal Christian"?  I really think that you are stretching the point by that definition.  If a person is a Christian that means that s/he has accepted Jesus as their Savior, and justification is not dependent on works.  Attending church is not a requirement.

As far  as being saved goes, Paul wrote this: Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

"Carnal" means "fleshly", and a person is not a Christian if they not born again. The vast difference can be seen in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. The Tares look like Wheat until the harvest. They represent counterfeit Christians. The look and speak like Christians but come from another seed. The Tares never become Wheat. "Fleshly" mean that their flesh dictates a majority of matters in their lives. These matters may be legitimate or illegal. Hunger is a legitimate need of the flesh. But to miss the meeting because you cannot contain yourself for 2 hours is fleshly.

If we apply these definitions then, your question is a good one. The answer is; how do we define "saved"? In one verse " saved " means you do not go to the Lake of Fire (Rom.5:9). In another "saved" means entering the Kingdom of Christ (Matt.19:24-25). In yet another a woman is "saved" by childbearing (1st Tim.2:15). And curiously eight souls were saved BY water (1st Pet.3:20), while the Ark saved these same eight FROM water ... !

I would argue that the majority of those who call themselves Christians are “yet carnal,”and are still in “the flesh.”

Many have only been water baptized, but have yet to be born again from above by the Holy Spirit. So until they are born again of the Spirit they are also yet carnal, no matter what they call themselves.

What is interesting with this question is found in what Paul said below…

1 Corinthians 3:1-3

King James Version

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto “spiritual,” but as unto “carnal,” even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are “yet carnal:” for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”

What is interesting in what Paul said above in verse 1 is, even though Paul called them yet “carnal,”he also referred to them as babes “in Christ.”

That to me seems like a contradiction, because in order to be “ in Christ” you must be born again of the Spirit.

And if they were truly born again of the Holy Spirit then they would not be yet carnal, or yet carnally minded.

So to me these whom Paul referred to in his letter as “yet carnal”were only water baptized, but not yet born again from above by the Spirit of Christ.

[grahampaul]

52 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I would argue that the majority of those who call themselves Christians are “yet carnal,”and are still in “the flesh.”

Many have only been water baptized, but have yet to be born again from above by the Holy Spirit. So until they are born again of the Spirit they are also yet carnal, no matter what they call themselves.

What is interesting with this question is found in what Paul said below…

1 Corinthians 3:1-3

King James Version

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto “spiritual,” but as unto “carnal,” even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are “yet carnal:” for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”

What is interesting in what Paul said above in verse 1 is, even though Paul called them yet “carnal,”he also referred to them as babes “in Christ.”

That to me seems like a contradiction, because in order to be “ in Christ” you must be born again of the Spirit.

And if they were truly born again of the Holy Spirit then they would not be yet carnal, or yet carnally minded.

So to me these whom Paul referred to in his letter as “yet carnal”were only water baptized, but not yet born again from above by the Spirit of Christ.

there are many a carnal yet born again christian, we were all without God once.some of us take a litle longer to grow and change in the Word heck im a few decades an still a bit naughty praise be to God our sins have been forgiven us.

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 hour ago, grahampaul said:

there are many a carnal yet born again christian, we were all without God once.some of us take a litle longer to grow and change in the Word heck im a few decades an still a bit naughty praise be to God our sins have been forgiven us.

I don’t believe true born again Christians are yet “carnal,” or as Paul says still “in the flesh.” If so be they have been born again of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9

But ye are not “in the flesh,”but “in the Spirit,”if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Matthew 13:24-30 (NRSVue), " He [Jesus] put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field, but while everybody was asleep an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28 He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he replied, ‘No, for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. Let both of them grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

I very strongly doubt that the weeds (tares) represent "carnal" Christians, since those seeds were sown by an enemy.  BTW, what is your definition of a "carnal Christian"?  I really think that you are stretching the point by that definition.  If a person is a Christian that means that s/he has accepted Jesus as their Savior, and justification is not dependent on works.  Attending church is not a requirement.

As far  as being saved goes, Paul wrote this: Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

The point of mentioning the Wheat nd Tares is that they have two totally different ORIGINS. So also the Christian and the COUNTERFEIT Cristian. But I think the OP wants to know if among TRUE Christians there can be those who deny the flesh and those who pander to the flesh. Galatians 5:17 says plainly that an unending battle exists between the human spirit where God lives and the flesh which opposes all things godly.

Romans 7 settles the matter brutally. "No GOOD THING lives in our flesh" and in both cases, Galatians and Romans, the flesh tends to win. This is true for the best Christians. The solution is of course Romans Chapter 8 - the Law of LIFE IN Christ Jesus. TWO approaches to the problem are presented. 1. The Christian tries to fight the flesh. This ends in defeat. 2. We turn to the indwelling Christ (in Whom yo are complete - Col.2:10) and apply His LIFE in us.

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

And if they were truly born again of the Holy Spirit then they would not be yet carnal, or yet carnally minded.

This is the big debate among scholars. My understanding is that man is a Tripartite being - body, soul and spirit (Gen.2:7, 1st Thess.5:23). God dwells in his human spirit (Jn.3:6, 4:24) and "No good thing" dwells in the flesh (Rom.7:18). Before rebirth the human spirit is a submissive part and so the flesh makes demands on the soul and gets it's way. After the new birth God takes up residence in the human spirit and assumes His rightful place as King of your life. He makes His legitimate demands from the spirit. But the flesh puts up a violent struggle. In between these two antagonists is the soul.

The soul is so used to pandering to the flesh that the new Christian loses just about every battle. With time, training, a diet of God's Word and self-denial, the growing Christian starts to win some battles. The battle is hefty. the flesh never takes prisoners. the flesh is ruthless and even the mature Christian finds himself defeated on occasion. The grand type of this conflict is the battle between Israel and Amalek, which the Lord decreed "from generation to generation". Saul is a picture of the fleshly Christian. He made a pact with Agag the Amalekite instead of crucifying him.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I don’t believe true born again Christians are yet “carnal,” or as Paul says still “in the flesh.” If so be they have been born again of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9

But ye are not “in the flesh,”but “in the Spirit,”if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I understand it like this. In Romans 7 a LAW is discovered that causes sin and subsequent death - "the LAW of sin and death". Let's call it "gravity". Gravity is a Law that works every time. Lift something up and let go - bang! Down it goes. It is a LAW. It works every time. But we discover another LAW - the Law of LIFT over an aerofoil. As long as this wing keeps the LAW of LIFT the aeroplane "defeats" gravity. But the second this Law is not kept - bang! Gravity wins and the aeroplane hits the ground.

So is the Christian. BOTH LAWS dwell in him. He has a free will. He can either succumb to the flesh, or apply the Law of LIFE in Christ Jesus (Rom.8:1-2). Romans 8:9 above reminds us that God, at great cost, has POSITIONED us in the Spirit. But it still takes the DISPOSITION of the Christian to apply it. Galatians 5:17 makes it very personal and very violent. The Christian must truly put the flesh to death. The flesh cannot just be refused. It must be CRUCIFIED (Gal.5:24).

[Stewardofthemystery]

12 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I understand it like this. In Romans 7 a LAW is discovered that causes sin and subsequent death - "the LAW of sin and death". Let's call it "gravity". Gravity is a Law that works every time. Lift something up and let go - bang! Down it goes. It is a LAW. It works every time. But we discover another LAW - the Law of LIFT over an aerofoil. As long as this wing keeps the LAW of LIFT the aeroplane "defeats" gravity. But the second this Law is not kept - bang! Gravity wins and the aeroplane hits the ground.

So is the Christian. BOTH LAWS dwell in him. He has a free will. He can either succumb to the flesh, or apply the Law of LIFE in Christ Jesus (Rom.8:1-2). Romans 8:9 above reminds us that God, at great cost, has POSITIONED us in the Spirit. But it still takes the DISPOSITION of the Christian to apply it. Galatians 5:17 makes it very personal and very violent. The Christian must truly put the flesh to death. The flesh cannot just be refused. It must be CRUCIFIED (Gal.5:24).

Here is part of a thread I wrote on the topic of Romans 7 and the law of sin and death….

So what is the law of sin and death? I compare the law of sin and death to be much like the law of gravity; we are all firstborn “under it”naturally by reason of Adams original sin. 

Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

As it is also written in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,” So as it is also written, “by nature”we were the children of wrath Ephesians 2:3 and as by the judgement of one for sin was unto condemnation. Romans 5:16 as the wages of sin is death= being “under the law of sin and death.”

It is an absolute principle “in nature,”much like the law of gravity.

We know this condemnation of sin was already in the world before the Law of Moses because sin and death already reigned in the world. 

Romans 5:13 Notice we are told death reigned Romans 5:14“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.” 

That is an important clue in understanding what it means to be “under the law of sin and death.”

When you are under the law of sin you are a “servant of sin,” like sin being the Devils desire “ruling over”you as it is written in Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death…”

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 

19 I speak after “the manner of men”because of the infirmity of your flesh:”

Paul was trying to relate to a “carnal”audience who was still “struggling with sin” because they were still in “the flesh"(as is the “mannerism”of mankind) like a natural brute beast.

What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and “enmity between” the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, as these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another.
 

Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is “the law of sin and death,” and the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either. 

Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then “a law,”that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see “another law”in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to “the law of sin”which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with “the flesh” the law of sin.

In the above we see the 2 laws at work (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another. But are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death?

Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus “hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak “through the flesh,”God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What we see in the above is walking after the flesh is serving sin and =being “under the law of sin and death.”

Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh. 

Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
 

So it is the Spirit of Christ (the law of the Spirit of Life) that “makes us free” from the first nature and law that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.

Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God.
 

But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it serve to be only set free from a holy law, and not be made free from sin and death?

All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense. 

But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn “under,”is the “law of sin and death.”

Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are “all under sin;”

So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be made free from, because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever.

Peace and God bless