Are carnal Christian’s saved?

[JimmyB]

Regarding the OP...

a) What is a "carnal" Christian?

b) Everyone is saved by Christ's sacrifice.  It is God's gift to all, but it must be received by faith.  

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Here is part of a thread I wrote on the topic of Romans 7 and the law of sin and death….

 

So what is the law of sin and death? I compare the law of sin and death to be much like the law of gravity; we are all firstborn “under it”naturally by reason of Adams original sin. 

Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

As it is also written in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,” So as it is also written, “by nature”we were the children of wrath Ephesians 2:3 and as by the judgement of one for sin was unto condemnation. Romans 5:16 as the wages of sin is death= being “under the law of sin and death.”

It is an absolute principle “in nature,”much like the law of gravity.

We know this condemnation of sin was already in the world before the Law of Moses because sin and death already reigned in the world. 

Romans 5:13 Notice we are told death reigned Romans 5:14“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.” 

That is an important clue in understanding what it means to be “under the law of sin and death.”

When you are under the law of sin you are a “servant of sin,” like sin being the Devils desire “ruling over”you as it is written in Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death…”

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 

19 I speak after “the manner of men”because of the infirmity of your flesh:”

Paul was trying to relate to a “carnal”audience who was still “struggling with sin” because they were still in “the flesh"(as is the “mannerism”of mankind) like a natural brute beast.

What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and “enmity between” the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, as these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another.
 

Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is “the law of sin and death,” and the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either. 

Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then “a law,”that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see “another law”in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to “the law of sin”which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with “the flesh” the law of sin.

In the above we see the 2 laws at work (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another. But are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death?

Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus “hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak “through the flesh,”God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What we see in the above is walking after the flesh is serving sin and =being “under the law of sin and death.”

Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh. 

Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
 

So it is the Spirit of Christ (the law of the Spirit of Life) that “makes us free” from the first nature and law that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.

Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God.
 

But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it serve to be only set free from a holy law, and not be made free from sin and death?

All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense. 

But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn “under,”is the “law of sin and death.”

Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are “all under sin;”

So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be made free from, because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever.

Peace and God bless

I judge that we agree on many points. Just towards the end I was not sure of your point. So I'll give my understanding and you can judge whether we are close or not.

God's Law is truly valid for the Jew alone. But it is a very good indicator or measuring stick because God's moral law dwells in the heart and conscience of the Gentile (Rom.2:15). The term "FREE from the law of sin and death" means that another Law gives one freedom, It does not mean that the previous Law is abolished. The "jail-master" is ever present, but the prisoner has furlough. An aeroplane is free from the Law of gravity, but gravity has not gone away. So it is with the Christian. The flesh, which harbors the Law of sin and death is ever present.

This discussion has a natural ending place. It addresses the question, can one be sinless. On first reading 1st John 3:8-10 we may convinced that this is possible.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

But John 3:6 changes everything. That which is born of God is ONLY the human spirit. It pointedly says that the flesh still has its ORIGIN in the flesh. So, as long as the christian lives, he/she carries the flesh, and the flesh is a battle zone. If I am led by the the Spirit in my human spirit, I can lift up above the Law of sin. the minute I do not watch, I can slip back into the flesh. The formula for an aeroplane's LIFT is dependent on about 4 to 5 factors. While the pilot adheres to all of them, he is FREE from the LAW of gravity. But gravity is ever present and the second the pilot disregards, or ignores one of those factors, Gravity takes over and contact with the ground is guaranteed.

Thus, both scriptures are true. Freedom from sin is available, but likelihood of sin is ever present. This is illustrated nicely in Romans 7. Of all the Laws which one could use to illustrate the point, the Holy Spirit used "Covetousness". Many of us keep the other commands, but who is free from seeking or desiring to have what another has. It only needs a twinge of lusting after another man's gift in the Church and you are guilty. Just the second glance at another man's wife, or car, or even his watch. The man who does not covet is basically brain dead.

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Regarding the OP...

a) What is a "carnal" Christian?

b) Everyone is saved by Christ's sacrifice.  It is God's gift to all, but it must be received by faith.  

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

1. A Carnal Christian is one whose walk is dictated by the desires of the flesh. It doesn't even have to be a bad thing. Hunger and sexual desire are legitimate, but if they dominate, and man is "fleshly". So Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 9:27;

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2. We are discussing behavior that rears up AFTER salvation. You are correct. We confess our sins, believe with our hearts and confess Jesus by faith. But then comes the day when a Church member scratches and dents your expensive car in the Church parking lot. You will have to love him and forgive him, even if he drove away without telling you or offering to pay for it. Not so easy!

[JimmyB]

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

1. A Carnal Christian is one whose walk is dictated by the desires of the flesh. It doesn't even have to be a bad thing. Hunger and sexual desire are legitimate, but if they dominate, and man is "fleshly". So Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 9:27;

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2. We are discussing behavior that rears up AFTER salvation. You are correct. We confess our sins, believe with our hearts and confess Jesus by faith. But then comes the day when a Church member scratches and dents your expensive car in the Church parking lot. You will have to love him and forgive him, even if he drove away without telling you or offering to pay for it. Not so easy!

I don't see the world "carnal" in the Bible.  I consider it a derogatory fundamentalist term, another way of saying "holier than thou".  In First Corinthians 9:22 Paul is describing keeping control of his body, not putting himself above other Christians.

"To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." NIV

The same principle applies in verse 27, "No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

It does not mean to be ruled and controlled by the sinful nature, i.e., "the flesh".  It means keeping fit physically.

Edited July 25, 2023 by JimmyB

[Michael37]

2 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

I don't see the world "carnal" in the Bible. 

I do.

(Rom 7:14)  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(Rom 8:7)  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rom 15:27)  It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
(1Co 3:1)  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(1Co 3:3)  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1Co 3:4)  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
(1Co 9:11)  If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
(2Co 10:4)  (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
(Heb 7:16)  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
(Heb 9:10)  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

[Solus Christus]

Carnal Christians I think will likely be the saved by fire crowd, “If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:15). Meaning all their fruit and works are loss, but they are saved by the grace of Jesus through faith. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Solus Christus

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 7/23/2023 at 2:23 PM, Stewardofthemystery said:

Carnal meaning, a Christian who is not yet born again of the Holy Spirit.

Your question is a contradiction. You are ONLY a Christian if you are born again. If you really mean a carnal born again believer, then yes, a carnal believer is still saved. 

[JimmyB]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

I do.

(Rom 7:14)  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(Rom 8:7)  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rom 15:27)  It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
(1Co 3:1)  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(1Co 3:3)  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1Co 3:4)  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
(1Co 9:11)  If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
(2Co 10:4)  (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
(Heb 7:16)  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
(Heb 9:10)  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

That is a perfect example of why I use the NIV and the NRSVue, not the KJV.  The word "carnal" doesn't appear a single time in either translation. The English word word "carnal" is defined as "relating to physical, especially sexual, needs and activities".

[Michael37]

8 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

That is a perfect example of why I use the NIV and the NRSVue, not the KJV.  The word "carnal" doesn't appear a single time in either translation. The English word word "carnal" is defined as "relating to physical, especially sexual, needs and activities".

You're not a carnivore, then, never mind all the other words in our vocabulary, like incarnation.

[Solus Christus]

2 hours ago, JimmyB said:

That is a perfect example of why I use the NIV and the NRSVue, not the KJV.  The word "carnal" doesn't appear a single time in either translation. The English word word "carnal" is defined as "relating to physical, especially sexual, needs and activities".

Carnal means of the flesh, like temporal means of the material world. Its from a higher English.