Big Boy Stan Murf Posted August 18, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.41 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2023 OK, so if a man gets born again and continues to live in sin... he is still saved and will still go to Heaven. There are some out there claiming if one quits sinning, they are trying to earn their salvation thru good works so it's best to keep living in sin. Sounds like the way to know one is saved is to live after the flesh and be a good sinner! That way we aren't trying to earn our salvation by turning away from sin and evil. Like they all say, we were all born sinners and we cannot help but sin every day in thought word and deed so sin we must! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyB Posted August 18, 2023 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,628 Content Per Day: 1.14 Reputation: 304 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2023 11 minutes ago, Stan Murff said: OK, so if a man gets born again and continues to live in sin... he is still saved and will still go to Heaven. There are some out there claiming if one quits sinning, they are trying to earn their salvation thru good works so it's best to keep living in sin. Sounds like the way to know one is saved is to live after the flesh and be a good sinner! That way we aren't trying to earn our salvation by turning away from sin and evil. Like they all say, we were all born sinners and we cannot help but sin every day in thought word and deed so sin we must! Why are you playing around with this kind of sophistry? I don't find it amusing; it borders on blasphemy! There has been only one sinless person: Jesus Christ. Everyone else has sinned. The difference between an unsaved person and a saved person is that the former is controlled by sin. Paul describes it perfectly in Romans 7:15-17 "I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells within me." No Christian seriously thinks that it's best to keep living in sin. That is nonsense. As is "Sounds like the way to know one is saved is to live after the flesh and be a good sinner!" If you're trying to be funny, you're not! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted August 18, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.41 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2023 Since Jesus did not sin... shouldn't Christians NOT willingly and knowingly do sin? And why do so many go out of their way to make it sound as though we're all sinners??? If one is not willingly and knowingly doing sin, then they are not a sinner. Of course they make errors and mistakes so they are not perfect in the literal sense like Jesus But, this does not mean it's OK to willingly and knowingly do sin as everyone claims that believes in eternal security. These folks make it sound as though if one ceases from willingly and knowingly doing sin that means they are trying to earn their salvation and they will be lost! It's all one big contradiction that comes from seminaries and bible schools and not from God's Word. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted August 18, 2023 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 245 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 7,029 Content Per Day: 3.28 Reputation: 4,941 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted August 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, Stan Murff said: Since Jesus did not sin... shouldn't Christians NOT willingly and knowingly do sin? We have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to guide us, and our consciences to prompt us. Through Christ: 1. God Rescues = Salvation 2. God Forgives = Reconciliation 3. God Cleanses = Sanctification 4. God Fills with Hope = Expectation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted August 19, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,380 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,361 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2023 On 8/18/2023 at 6:36 AM, Stan Murff said: Since we are not supposed to DO anything to be saved, are there errors in the Bible? Seems like the following verses say we should DO some stuff so shouldn't the Bible be amended and these verses removed since they are obviously false entries right? 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and DO not the truth: Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and DO works meet for repentance. For me, the idea in these verses is that a sincere salvation (a sincere surrender of one's life to Christ as our Lord) will produce change in the savee - from the inside, out. The influence of the inner Holy Spirit will effect light, and repentance, and righteousness in the life of the believer. The works themselves are a result of salvation, not a prerequisite for salvation. Given that sanctification is a process, the continuing absence of these good fruits could indicate that the initial confession of faith was not sincere. I would also note that this is between God and the individual. Only God knows our hearts. It could just be that some people are more broken, or more obstinate, and therefore maybe it takes a bit longer for their sanctification to become outwardly evident. An outward lack of fruit, regardless of salvation status, is an indication that the person is not mature enough to hold spiritual influence in our lives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted August 19, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,380 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,361 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Stan Murff said: Since Jesus did not sin... shouldn't Christians NOT willingly and knowingly do sin? The reason we need a Saviour is because God knows that we are too weak and too corrupted to avoid sin without His help. That is why the covenant had to be of grace, not law. Ideally, we would, of course, not sin. However, sanctification is a process that is different for everyone. Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 2 hours ago, Stan Murff said: And why do so many go out of their way to make it sound as though we're all sinners??? I would be genuinely concerned for the spiritual welfare of any Christian not humble enough to admit their own weaknesses. Not to me - but to God and to themselves. All Christians sin - but less so as we grow and mature in God. All genuine Christians are "perfected", but also "being sanctified". 3 hours ago, Stan Murff said: If one is not willingly and knowingly doing sin, then they are not a sinner A "sinner" is anyone who falls short of God's measure - not our own measure. 3 hours ago, Stan Murff said: Of course they make errors and mistakes so they are not perfect in the literal sense like Jesus But, this does not mean it's OK to willingly and knowingly do sin as everyone claims that believes in eternal security No genuine Christian would claim "it's OK to willingly and knowingly do sin". When we do sin, we both acknowledge and regret our sin, decide to repent from our sin and turn back to God, and henceforth move forward with God - in faith; understanding that Jesus has dealt with our sin. 3 hours ago, Stan Murff said: These folks make it sound as though if one ceases from willingly and knowingly doing sin that means they are trying to earn their salvation and they will be lost! I don't know who "these folks" are. But I would caution that people with a legalistic mindset towards sin tend to overindulge in self-condemnation when they do sin (which everyone does). That is a waste of God's time - and an indication that one does not trust in the sacrifice of Christ. Our sin is against God. If God forgives us, who are we to disagree? 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. We "need" grace the most when we have sinned. But we shouldn't wallow in self-pity. We should go straight to God and get it fixed. Jesus will "advocate" for us before the Father. 3 hours ago, Stan Murff said: It's all one big contradiction that comes from seminaries and bible schools and not from God's Word. I can't speak for others. In my position, there is no sense of grace being a license to sin. Only that grace is available when we do sin (which we all do - in recognition that, in this life, we will always have to carry around the corrupted and rebellious flesh). 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted August 19, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.41 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tristen said: God knows that we are too weak and too corrupted to avoid sin without His help. OK, so now that we have been born again and have access to His help and can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens us.... Why would anyone think the Lord would not reject Christians who refuse His Help and continue willingly and knowingly living in sin??? By doing so they trample under foot the blood of Christ treating it as an unholy thing (Hebrews 10:26-31) They all teach once saved always saved and then get all upset if someone says you can live in sin and still be saved. You cannot have it both ways. The reason some believe you can live in sin and still be saved is because so many teach once saved always saved which ends up being false doctrine when one accepts the whole counsel of God rather than their own eisegesis where they claim God's Word teaches something it does not actually teach. Ultimately, once saved always save is a stumbling block for believers. Edited August 19, 2023 by Stan Murff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted August 19, 2023 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 245 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 7,029 Content Per Day: 3.28 Reputation: 4,941 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted August 19, 2023 38 minutes ago, Stan Murff said: OK, so now that we have been born again and have access to His help and can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens us.... Why would anyone think the Lord would not reject Christians who refuse His Help and continue willingly and knowingly living in sin??? By doing so they trample under foot the blood of Christ treating it as an unholy thing (Hebrews 10:26-31) They all teach once saved always saved and then get all upset if someone says you can live in sin and still be saved. You cannot have it both ways. The reason some believe you can live in sin and still be saved is because so many teach once saved always saved which ends up being false doctrine when one accepts the whole counsel of God rather than their own eisegesis where they claim God's Word teaches something it does not actually teach. Ultimately, once saved always save is a stumbling block for believers. How's your next assignment coming along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted August 19, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,380 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,361 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2023 5 hours ago, Stan Murff said: OK, so now that we have been born again and have access to His help and can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens us.... Why would anyone think the Lord would not reject Christians who refuse His Help and continue willingly and knowingly living in sin??? By doing so they trample under foot the blood of Christ treating it as an unholy thing (Hebrews 10:26-31) I guess I'd need you to be more specific about what it means to be "willingly and knowingly living in sin". Even as Christians, most of the sins we commit are in some sense committed "willingly and knowingly". However, when a sincere Christian sins, we seek "His help" so that we might eventually overcome the influence of our corrupted flesh. However, there are also those who "willingly and knowingly" submit to sin; mitigating the seriousness of sin; even justifying their sins before God. I agree with you that this is not a Biblical perspective - and would consider this indicative of an insincere faith confession. 5 hours ago, Stan Murff said: They all teach once saved always saved and then get all upset if someone says you can live in sin and still be saved. You cannot have it both ways. I don't know who "they all" are. I can only speak for myself. If "once saved always saved" is correct, then the second group of sinners mentioned above (i.e. those who mitigate the seriousness of sin and perhaps even justify sin) are not "saved" (yet). It is also possible that they are sincere in their faith's confession - but have simply misunderstood salvation doctrine. 5 hours ago, Stan Murff said: The reason some believe you can live in sin and still be saved is because so many teach once saved always saved which ends up being false doctrine when one accepts the whole counsel of God rather than their own eisegesis where they claim God's Word teaches something it does not actually teach. Ultimately, once saved always save is a stumbling block for believers. I think the "once saved always saved" debate is a much bigger conversation. I don't think there is anything inherent to that teaching that condones "living in sin". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted August 19, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.41 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2023 11 hours ago, Tristen said: If "once saved always saved" is correct, then the second group of sinners mentioned above (i.e. those who mitigate the seriousness of sin and perhaps even justify sin) are not "saved" (yet). And yet the Word of God speaks of people that depart from the faith meaning they were actually saved, but then they fell away and are no longer saved. One cannot depart from the faith if there were never saved and in the faith in the first place. It is entirely possible according to God's Word to be saved and then... not be saved. Ultimately, once saved always save is a stumbling block for believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts