JimmyB Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,628 Content Per Day: 1.16 Reputation: 304 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 6 hours ago, Who me said: It has everything to do with our forgiveness. We are to imitate Jesus in how he forgives us. Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but sinners are not forgiven, they will be judged and punished unless they repent. We like God must have a forgiving nature, ready and willing to forgive those who are sorry for the hurt/harm they have done us. This does not mean we harbour grudges, but that we pray for the offender, that they will come to know God and we pray for ourselves that we can forgive them. "Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but sinners are not forgiven, they will be judged and punished unless they repent" is self-contradictory! a) "Through Jesus all sins are forgiven" b) "... but sinners are not forgiven". So which is it, a or b? "We like God must have a forgiving nature, ready and willing to forgive those who are sorry for the hurt/harm they have done us." is 100% correct! Again, we forgive others because God forgave us while we were still sinners! Our forgiving others is not dependent on whether they repent or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who me Posted September 14, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,300 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 1,685 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 14, 2023 On 9/5/2023 at 5:03 PM, JimmyB said: Our forgiving others is not dependent on whether they repent or not! Like 17:3 says yes it is. The whole bible teaches that without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin. Your contradictory problem.Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but unless that forgiveness is received a sinner will end up in hell. As John 3:16 says those who believe are saved. Only those with.. ing to humble themselves and say sorry to God are willing to receive God's salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted September 15, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,585 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,443 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted September 15, 2023 On 9/5/2023 at 12:03 PM, JimmyB said: "Through Jesus all sins are forgiven, but sinners are not forgiven, they will be judged and punished unless they repent" is self-contradictory! a) "Through Jesus all sins are forgiven" b) "... but sinners are not forgiven". So which is it, a or b? "We like God must have a forgiving nature, ready and willing to forgive those who are sorry for the hurt/harm they have done us." is 100% correct! Again, we forgive others because God forgave us while we were still sinners! Our forgiving others is not dependent on whether they repent or not! Shalom, JimmyB. Sorry, I didn't see this post until today, but the answer is that "Through Yeeshuwa` ('Jesus') all sins CAN be forgiven," but "God ONLY forgives those who have repented of their sins and turned to God for His justification." Only HE can declare a person to be "righteousness," specifically His own righteousness found in His Son, the Messiah Yeeshuwa`. This is clear in Yeeshuwa`s parable of the Pharisee and the Publican in ... Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "'God be merciful to me a sinner.' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." We read the truth to this in ... 2 Corinthians 5:-21 (KJV) 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. It's also important to understand that the word translated as "be ye reconciled," "καταλλάγητε." means "to trade places with," and verse 21 shows us the trade: He (God the Father) hath made Him (the Son of God, Yeeshuwa`) to be sin for us, who knew no sin, "that we might be made the righteousness of God in the Messiah." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyB Posted September 15, 2023 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,628 Content Per Day: 1.16 Reputation: 304 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 15, 2023 10 hours ago, Retrobyter said: Shalom, JimmyB. Sorry, I didn't see this post until today, but the answer is that "Through Yeeshuwa` ('Jesus') all sins CAN be forgiven," but "God ONLY forgives those who have repented of their sins and turned to God for His justification." Only HE can declare a person to be "righteousness," specifically His own righteousness found in His Son, the Messiah Yeeshuwa`. This is clear in Yeeshuwa`s parable of the Pharisee and the Publican in ... Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "'God be merciful to me a sinner.' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." We read the truth to this in ... 2 Corinthians 5:-21 (KJV) 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. It's also important to understand that the word translated as "be ye reconciled," "καταλλάγητε." means "to trade places with," and verse 21 shows us the trade: He (God the Father) hath made Him (the Son of God, Yeeshuwa`) to be sin for us, who knew no sin, "that we might be made the righteousness of God in the Messiah." I didn't read your entire post, as reading the first part was sufficient. I couldn't disagree with you more! ALL SINS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN BY CHRIST'S SACRIFICE. That is the basis of the New Covenant, and why sacrifices for sins committed are no longer required. Claiming that "Through Yeeshuwa` ('Jesus') all sins CAN be forgiven," but "God ONLY forgives those who have repented of their sins and turned to God for His justification" is entirely wrong! John 3:16-18 is sufficient to explain this. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Ephesians 2:8-9 also states the principle: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them." Repentance is a "work"! God has forgiven those who believe in Christ's sacrifice on their behalf, otherwise it is justification by works, i.e., you must do something such as repent to earn God's forgiveness -- thereby controlling God! "He will forgive me only if I repent" is Old Covenant doctrine. Even your Englyshe quote contains these words: "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." In summary, forgiveness only follows repentance is false doctrine under the NEW covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.82 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2023 (edited) Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. The guy took vengeance (revenge) upon the guy that raped his daughter and this is a sin before the Lord because it was done after the fact. If he caught the man in the act, it would have been self defense in protecting the child and that would not necessarily be a sin or a crime. (if your conscience is telling to killing in self defense is a sin, then for you it IS a sin!) But, when one takes vengeance (revenge) upon someone after they did whatever it was they did... they are taking something the Lord specifically said belongs to Him. Those that love, honor, and respect the Lord will not go out and take vengeance (revenge) upon someone for wrong doing after the fact. Another thing to bring in to this that is directly related is.... forgiveness! Matthew 6:15 if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. No matter what one has done, we must forgive them because Jesus said if we do not, the Father will not forgive us of our sins. (this is reaping what we sow - God cannot be mocked, see Gal 6:7,8) Some want to argue that all our future sins are already forgiven and choosing to not forgive someone does not mean your sins are not forgiven... but this is NOT what Jesus said! Those people will get upset if you tell them they are saying Jesus is a liar, but that's exactly what they are doing is saying something Jesus said... is not true which is a sin in itself It may not be easy, but we must forgive those that have done us wrong. We should make the decision to forgive to CHOOSE to forgive and do it in faith. Prays and tell the Lord "Lord, I choose to forgive this person in Jesus Name and I'm asking for your help and teach me how to make this a reality in my life" Forgiving is done by faith where you honor the Lord's instructions and do what He is leading us to do in His Word and forgive others even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you (see Ephesians 4:32) On 8/22/2023 at 3:33 AM, Who me said: How does God forgive? He chooses to not remember someone's sin any more... Edited September 16, 2023 by Stan Murff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted September 16, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.82 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2023 Another thing to understand is people who refuse to forgive... are tormented by demons! Not forgiving is an open door to the devil to bring darkness in to your life and he never misses any opening in people's life to come in to kill, steal, and destroy (see John 10:10) Jesus has an entire teaching (parable) devoted to this where He says those that refuse to forgive are turned over to the tormentors. This is why many of the people you run across in life that are tormented in their minds and have no peace who are always full of anxiety and fear... have most likely had something bad done to them and they either don't know how to forgive or outright refuse to forgive. It's sad to to see this because they are helping the devil bring destruction and anguish in to their lives and they don't even know it... Matthew 18:23-35 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted September 17, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,585 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,443 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted September 17, 2023 On 9/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, JimmyB said: I didn't read your entire post, as reading the first part was sufficient. I couldn't disagree with you more! Shalom, JimmyB. Then, one should read the Scriptures more without interjecting his or her own thoughts into what he or she reads. On 9/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, JimmyB said: ALL SINS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN BY CHRIST'S SACRIFICE. That is the basis of the New Covenant, and why sacrifices for sins committed are no longer required. This is NOT true. God doesn't blanketly forgive all sins by the sacrifice of His Son, even though His sacrifice WILL cover for all sins committed. It's backward to say "all sins have been forgiven by Christ's Sacrifice." Until an individual REALIZES that he or she is a sinner and comes humbly to God, asking for His forgiveness, Christ's Sacrifice is NOT applied to that person's life. Again, look at Luke 18: Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "'God be merciful to me a sinner.' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." It was the PUBLICAN who was justified! Why? Because HE HUMBLED himself and ASKED God to be merciful to him. He recognized himself as a SINNER in need of God's intervention in his life. THAT'S when God stepped in and JUSTIFIED that person. God doesn't just forgive all sins carte blanche! He forgives those who, recognizing that they are indeed the sinners that all men are, have fallen on God's grace to rectify that sin in his or her life. On 9/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, JimmyB said: Claiming that "Through Yeeshuwa` ('Jesus') all sins CAN be forgiven," but "God ONLY forgives those who have repented of their sins and turned to God for His justification" is entirely wrong! I don't know which version of the Bible you THINK has called this "wrong," but it is ENTIRELY WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY, AS I'VE JUST QUOTED! On 9/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, JimmyB said: John 3:16-18 is sufficient to explain this. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Let's LOOK at John 3:16-18 in context! John 3:1-21 (NIV with colors added) 1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, BUT whoever does not believe STANDS CONDEMNED ALREADY because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." It's important to understand that Yeeshuwa` is NOT saying that "everyone has eternal life in Him"; He is saying that "everyone WHO BELIEVES (TRUSTS GOD) in Him MAY HAVE eternal life in Him!" He doesn't say "will have" or "has"! He QUALIFIES the statement with the word "may!" When Mosheh ("Moses") lifted up the snake in the wilderness, not everyone was spared from the snakebites! It was those who LOOKED to the brazen snake who were rescued from the snakebites and LIVED! There were some who did NOT look and DIED from the snakebites! On 9/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, JimmyB said: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Again, there are some who DO NOT BELIEVE (TRUST) and are ALREADY CONDEMNED. On 9/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, JimmyB said: Ephesians 2:8-9 also states the principle: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them." Repentance is a "work"! God has forgiven those who believe in Christ's sacrifice on their behalf, otherwise it is justification by works, i.e., you must do something such as repent to earn God's forgiveness -- thereby controlling God! "He will forgive me only if I repent" is Old Covenant doctrine. Nope. This is wrong. Repentance is not a "work"; it is a FRAME OF MIND! It's changing your mind 180 degrees! One turns from his or her sin and turns TO God for His help - the ONLY Help one could expect to find! On 9/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, JimmyB said: Even your Englyshe quote contains these words: "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." In summary, forgiveness only follows repentance is false doctrine under the NEW covenant. Sorry, bro', but you've got a wrong definition of the New Covenant, and you're not accepting what was written! 2 Corinthians 5:6-21 (NIV) 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (OF THE MESSIAH), so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who RECONCILED us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of RECONCILIATION: 19 that God was RECONCILING the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of RECONCILIATION. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: BE RECONCILED TO GOD. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that xxxxxx we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Verse 21 is still said best in the KJV: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. It's not "so that we might in Him become the righteousness of God," but rather that "we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM!" It's the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God that is IN HIM; that is, IN THE MESSIAH! That's an IMPORTANT distinction! The Greek word translated as "be reconciled" is καταλλάγητε or transliterated as "katallageete," the aorist imperative passive form of ... 2644 katallassoo (katallassó) καταλλάσσω (kat-al-las-so'). From kata and allassoo (allasso); to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference: -- reconcile. Its usage is "I change, exchange, reconcile." It implies "to exchange mutually." It comes from ... 2596 kata κατά (kat-ah'). A primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined): -- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from... To, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of),... By, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity. and, ... 236 allassoo (allassó) ἀλλάσσω (al-las-so). From allos; to make different: -- change. Its usage is said to be "I change, alter, exchange, transform." Therefore, the passage should be understood, 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who Himself EXCHANGED PLACES with us through Christ and gave us the ministry of EXCHANGING PLACES: 19 that God was Himself EXCHANGING PLACES with the world in Christ (in the Messiah), not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of EXCHANGING PLACES. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: EXCHANGE PLACES WITH GOD. 21 For He (GOD) has made Him (the Messiah or Christ) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (in the Messiah). Verse 21 IS the Great Exchange! And, HERE is the New Covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV) 31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who me Posted September 18, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,300 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 1,685 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2023 On 9/16/2023 at 8:07 AM, Stan Murff said: He chooses to not remember someone's sin any more As Hebrews 8:12 says ' I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. Which is a quote from Jerimiah 31:31-34 where God promises to give a new covenant, writing his laws on the hearts of his people. In short repentance and saving faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted September 18, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.82 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2023 (edited) Yes, and as the Lord said... He chooses to not remember someone's sin any more And of course one must repent from their sin and quit living in sin... otherwise, the Lord WILL remember their sin until they confess it and forsake it. When one turns away from the Lord and sins, they must forsake their sin and confess their sin to the Lord in order to be right with the Lord once again. Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Edited September 18, 2023 by Stan Murff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyB Posted September 18, 2023 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,628 Content Per Day: 1.16 Reputation: 304 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2023 17 hours ago, Retrobyter said: Shalom, JimmyB. Then, one should read the Scriptures more without interjecting his or her own thoughts into what he or she reads. This is NOT true. God doesn't blanketly forgive all sins by the sacrifice of His Son, even though His sacrifice WILL cover for all sins committed. It's backward to say "all sins have been forgiven by Christ's Sacrifice." Until an individual REALIZES that he or she is a sinner and comes humbly to God, asking for His forgiveness, Christ's Sacrifice is NOT applied to that person's life. Again, look at Luke 18: Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "'God be merciful to me a sinner.' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." It was the PUBLICAN who was justified! Why? Because HE HUMBLED himself and ASKED God to be merciful to him. He recognized himself as a SINNER in need of God's intervention in his life. THAT'S when God stepped in and JUSTIFIED that person. God doesn't just forgive all sins carte blanche! He forgives those who, recognizing that they are indeed the sinners that all men are, have fallen on God's grace to rectify that sin in his or her life. I don't know which version of the Bible you THINK has called this "wrong," but it is ENTIRELY WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY, AS I'VE JUST QUOTED! Let's LOOK at John 3:16-18 in context! John 3:1-21 (NIV with colors added) 1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, BUT whoever does not believe STANDS CONDEMNED ALREADY because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." It's important to understand that Yeeshuwa` is NOT saying that "everyone has eternal life in Him"; He is saying that "everyone WHO BELIEVES (TRUSTS GOD) in Him MAY HAVE eternal life in Him!" He doesn't say "will have" or "has"! He QUALIFIES the statement with the word "may!" When Mosheh ("Moses") lifted up the snake in the wilderness, not everyone was spared from the snakebites! It was those who LOOKED to the brazen snake who were rescued from the snakebites and LIVED! There were some who did NOT look and DIED from the snakebites! Again, there are some who DO NOT BELIEVE (TRUST) and are ALREADY CONDEMNED. Nope. This is wrong. Repentance is not a "work"; it is a FRAME OF MIND! It's changing your mind 180 degrees! One turns from his or her sin and turns TO God for His help - the ONLY Help one could expect to find! Sorry, bro', but you've got a wrong definition of the New Covenant, and you're not accepting what was written! 2 Corinthians 5:6-21 (NIV) 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (OF THE MESSIAH), so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who RECONCILED us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of RECONCILIATION: 19 that God was RECONCILING the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of RECONCILIATION. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: BE RECONCILED TO GOD. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that xxxxxx we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Verse 21 is still said best in the KJV: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. It's not "so that we might in Him become the righteousness of God," but rather that "we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM!" It's the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God that is IN HIM; that is, IN THE MESSIAH! That's an IMPORTANT distinction! The Greek word translated as "be reconciled" is καταλλάγητε or transliterated as "katallageete," the aorist imperative passive form of ... 2644 katallassoo (katallassó) καταλλάσσω (kat-al-las-so'). From kata and allassoo (allasso); to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference: -- reconcile. Its usage is "I change, exchange, reconcile." It implies "to exchange mutually." It comes from ... 2596 kata κατά (kat-ah'). A primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined): -- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, (charita-)bly, concerning, + covered, (dai-)ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from... To, godly, in(-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of),... By, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-)on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through(-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-)to(-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where(-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity. and, ... 236 allassoo (allassó) ἀλλάσσω (al-las-so). From allos; to make different: -- change. Its usage is said to be "I change, alter, exchange, transform." Therefore, the passage should be understood, 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who Himself EXCHANGED PLACES with us through Christ and gave us the ministry of EXCHANGING PLACES: 19 that God was Himself EXCHANGING PLACES with the world in Christ (in the Messiah), not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of EXCHANGING PLACES. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: EXCHANGE PLACES WITH GOD. 21 For He (GOD) has made Him (the Messiah or Christ) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (in the Messiah). Verse 21 IS the Great Exchange! And, HERE is the New Covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV) 31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Forgiveness is one thing, application is another. Again, ALL SINS have been forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice. To think otherwise is a very serious error. However, the application of that forgiveness is dependent on the action of a person. Colossians 1:13-14, "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Ephesians 1:7, "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace. 1 John2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." John 3:16-18, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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