70 Weeks of Daniel

[Triton57]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Take it from  a guy who knows prophecy inside and out, you have missed it on this one. They take verses and weave them together, but the facts are I can destroy any of they verses so they mostly run from my points. You just proved by using Rev. 19 that the Rapture has to be Pre Trib. So, they do not have on White Garments to start with right? So it is before the Marry Jesus, but in Rev. 4:4 we see they have on White Robes already, before the "Seals are even opened" Reread Rev. 4:4 after the Rev. 4:1 Rapture. It tells us the 24 Elders (Church which makes us Kings & Priests because of the 1 Chronicles 24, twenty four Orders of the Priesthood). So, the 24 Elders is the Church, in heaven, just after the pre trib rapture. We know this by reading the Rev. 2 & 3 passages. In Rev. 2:10 those who OVERCOME are promised a CROWN of Gold and we see the 24 Elders have on CROWNS !! In Rev. 3:5 the OVERCOMERS were promised to have on White Robes and we see the Rev. 4:4 Elders have on White Raiment. Finally in Rev. 3:21 the OVERCOMERS were promised to sit at God's THRONE and the 24 Elders are sitting at God's throne. Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age, Rev. 4:1 ends the Church Age and we see the Church in Heaven, we are Kings and Priests thus we are called the 24 Elders. In Rev. 5:9-10 we are then described as having been WASHED in the blood, Angels do nit need forgiveness. This is the PRE TRIB RAPTURED Church, in heaven BEFORE any Seals have ever been opened. That is why you git it right via Rev. 19 even if you did not quite see it. By the way, as you read it, you remembered their arguments. See how it can be influential?

 

Revelation 4:1 is often used as representing the catching away, but John being called up by a voice sounding like a trumpet to see in the spirit what would happen is not the same as the dead in Christ being raised incorruptible and all the faithful from history meeting the Lord in the air at His coming. I do make that association with Revelation 7 because it makes sense given the innumerable multitude standing before the Lamb on the throne and the sixth seal event tied with the coming of the Lord.

 

Revelation 19 is placed just before Christ returns in glory and we see the marriage of the Lamb where they are prepared in white linen and return with Christ in white linen. However, the vision of the bride after the catching away earlier in Revelation 7 they are arrayed in these white robes. These are visions shown to John of heaven, I won't pretend to know how time works there, but it would seem that the time just after the catching away and the return with Christ, the bride is in her white robes. That would suggest perhaps that is part of the transition when we're caught up, but clearly once we're seen in heaven in John's vision.

 

The 24 elders are not an innumerable multitude and I don't translate this 24 into any representative number greater than 24 as stated. 1 Chronicles 24 may well be pointing to these 24 being something like the governors of the sanctuary of God, some leadership role. As to the identities of these 24 elders, they indeed are wearing white robes, crowns, and in Revelation 5 when Yeshua is given the scroll with seven seals they sing a new song that clearly identifies them as part of the redeemed by His blood.

 

Revelation 5:9-10

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

Are the 24 elders seen around the throne in heaven therefore caught up before the seals as John's spirit was in the vision of what was to come? Good question.

 

Does this mean the catching away has happened before Revelation 7? We're promised tribulation in the world, but one of the 24 elders tells John who this innumerable multitude is and from where they came. He is told they came out of great tribulation (megas thilipsis). If you look in the scripture for thilipsis, it's found 45 times in 43 verses.

 

The majority of the time it's used places like the parable of the sower, when tribulation comes he is offended by the Word. This is what I found in my study on the hour of temptation as well, focused just on the end time tribulation, but that same kind of temptation has occurred for Christians throughout history where they either recant or die.

 

"Megas thilipsis" is used 6 times, 4 times related to the unparalleled tribulation and referencing the sixth seal coming after that tribulation in Matthew 24:15-31 & Mark 13:14-27, once for the church of Thyatira, who will be cast into great tribulation if they don't repent in Revelation 2:2, and once in Revelation 7 defining the innumerable multitude in heaven.

 

So once again I am back to the sixth seal heralding the DOTL, which we both place in the middle of the week. I'm also back to Revelation 7 fitting into the Olivet discourse regarding the unparalleled great tribulation, followed by the signs of the sixth seal, followed by the gathering of the elect mirroring the opening of the sixth seal, which we know from the sign is after the

 

I understand you view Matthew 24/Mark 13 differently such that the catching away has already happened and the Son of man coming in great power and glory is at Armageddon. However, the confluence of Matthew 24:15-31, Mark 13:14-27 and Luke 21:25-28 we see that after the tribulation of those days is the sixth seal, shaking of the heavens, the sign of the Son of man coming with great power and glory on the clouds of heaven and the elect gathered from the four winds. Luke puts it a little differently.

 

Luke 21:25-28

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

Note Luke's diverence from the way it's described in Matthew and Mark, our redemption draws nigh after the sixth seal, matching when the angels are sent with a great sound of a trumpet to gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. If we are already caught up, why are we supposed to look up for our redemption? I believe every eye will see Him at the sixth seal and DOTL as well. I believe this is part of what provokes Israel to jealousy when we are taken.

 

Zechariah 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

 

Matthew 26:64

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

I don't believe we are gathered to meet Christ in the air as He is coming in glory at Armageddon because we are seen in heaven before that and we escape the wrath. Therefore there is another time He is coming and that is the time with wrath and to gather His bride to the marriage in heaven. So yeah there are lots of questions and this is definitely an interesting one to be sure.

 

How do we have our white robes in Revelation 7, but we are given them only just before returning with Christ from heaven?  If we don't precede the dead in Christ at His coming, could some of the dead have preceded us? When Yeshua was talking to Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory at the transfiguration, were they resurrected already? Were they wearing white robes as Yeshua was when transfigured? Is Abraham's bosom present with the Lord in heaven and are the dead in Christ in heaven given bodies or are just seen in visions as having bodies? Are some of Yeshua's leadership fulfilling roles like governors of the sanctuary of God ahead of the time the rest of us join them? How do visions of heaven work in relation to time? How does time work in heaven? Did I mention I don't know everything? Lol

 

There's a lot of questions, but I think we have to accept all scripture as written within context, interpreting with scripture. Otherwise what is true, everyone can spiritualize an answer to mean whatever fits their mold. You've got me thinking about the sequence of Matthew and Mark and digging in more to the Word, I appreciate that. It's exactly what I'm here to do.

[Triton57]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Look for the TIMING TELLS, like I showed in Rev. 4 with that coming BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. The biggest one is Rev. 2 and 3 is the Divine Church Age Completion which is called the "THE THINGS WHICH ARE" compared to Rev. 4:1 (The Rapture) which is called "The things which will be HEREAFTER" which means after the Church Age and mostly during the 70th week, however Rev. 20, 21 and 22 is on past the 70th week. These are on purpose timing tells. The reason Jesus dd not teach on the Rapture is he was sent unto Israel only. Now, some Jews will be Raptured, so when asked this in Matthew, he gives both answers, the Matt. 24:29-31 2nd Coming for the Jews AND the Pre Trib Rapture where he says (NOTICE) it will be like in the days of Noah, before the flood came to take them all away they were partying, marrying etc. Well, how can the Second Coming (THINK NOW) be like that? Gods Wrath has been hitting them for 3.5 years, they are in hiding, trying to dodge the Wrath of God not Marrying and Eating/Partying. Only a Pre Trib Rapture affords this type of thinking. Once the Rapture happens no one else is leaving, thus just like those outside of the Ark, when  the rains started coming, they were pretty much doomed. That is why Jesus says one will be taken and one left, that is referencing the Church and the 5 of 10 brides who do not make the wedding call.

So, Jesus calls us up to him Pre Trib, matches Rev. 14:14 to a tee. Then Jesus returns with the Church, matches Rev. 19 to a tee.

 

From the time Revelation was given to the church with the letters to the seven churches, wouldn't any time from their perspective be hereafter?

 

I agree, the coming like the days of Noah will be sudden destruction and like the days of Lot. What is this sudden destruction they receive? I believe that is talking about the wrath of God on the DOTL. Pre-trib is not the only way this is true as pre-wrath holds the same perspective. It's just not viewed as before the week starts, it's before the wrath starts. Similarly pre-wrath would hold that once the catching away happens, nobody else is leaving, the door to the marriage is shut. When Christ returns in glory next at Armageddon in Revelation 19, the bride is with Him and the next resurrection of the tribulation saints doesn't happen until Revelation 20:4-5.

 

Examining that analogy, would you say the ark was lifted above the waters a few years before the flood came and took them all away or on the day the door to the ark was shut by the hand of God?

 

Likewise, did Lot and his family leave Sodom some time before fire and brimstone destroyed them all or that same day?

 

I would say Revelation 14:14 fits with pre-wrath too, caught up before the wrath of God and the second harvest cast into the wrath of God. Revelation 19 is the bride returning from heaven with Christ, but the dead in Christ from the tribulation aren't resurrected until Revelation 20:4-5 and it says nothing about them being caught up to the clouds as Christ has already defeated the beast, false prophet and dragon.

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

What in scripture do you define the wrath of God as? I too believe in a pre-wrath catching away of the bride. I've found though that many pre-trib conflate the wrath of God with the tribulation with the 70th week and that's what causes them to put the rapture 3.5 years before the 70th week. I've been unable to find any scripture connecting the wrath of God with the 70th week.

Pre Tribbers have the Rapture before the 70th week or at it, saying they cant tell if there is a gap (I can, there is not one because the Covenant or Agreement sets it all in motion). You see they think this Anti-Christ has to have time to set this all up, its all set up now, go read the (I stumbled on this by chance) European Neighborhood Policy on Wiki or elsewhere, it is the E.U. who has 7 year agreements not only with Israel, but with the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, as in Egypt, Jordan, Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria. In Dan. 9:27 and 8:25 we are told about THE MANY. In Dan. 11:40-43 were are told the A.C. conquers MANY COUNTRIES and Israel. No Beast ever just conquered Israel, they always conquered the whole region. I will show you why it is the E.U. Anti-Christ. Lets look at a map of Rome circa 117 AD and a map of the E.U. and those Nations they have 7 year agreements with now, and lets imagine the E.U. Conquers them all (Dan. 11:40-43 says he does) and then lets look at the map, it is uncanny how the E.U. and those Nations he will conquer look just like Old Rome on a map.

 

By the way, Dan. 8:9 shows he conquers Turkey also, the nation right above Syria. So, now that E,U. Nation, when he conquers everything as shown in Dan. 11:40-43 looks like like Papa Rome on a map !! See why this has to be the Fourth Beast's offspring? The 5th Beast is ONE MAN. Why? He never passes his kingdom on like all the others, I am convinced this is why his number is 666, he is a human not a nation. He both ARISES and FALLS as the Beast unlike any other Beast. 

The 70th week is the Last Week of Israel 490 year Decree. In it lies Jacobs Troubles, which is the Greatest Ever Troubles. It starts in the middle of the week. Dan. 12 and Rev. 12 both show this.

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

It sounds like you place the DOTL in the middle of the week of years, which is exactly where I place it as well, so do you separate the DOTL/wrath of God from the week as well? If so, what causes you to subtract 3.5 years from the day of the Lord when His wrath comes to put the rapture at the beginning of the week? I see all over the correlation of the wrath of God coming coincidentally with the catching away of the bride.

Well, the Bride "COULD" be taken out just before the Wrath, but that is not God's plan, he chooses to have the Church out of the picture when the 70th week starts. When 1 Billion Christians all die (our Spirit ZOOMS UP, not our flesh bodies) this is a testament to help the Jews build their faith so they can repent later on. 1 Billion of the same Faith do not all just die at one time !! Amen. Remember, the 70 weeks is designed to get Israel to repent. Also, a Jewish Bride and her groom always stay in the father's house for 7 days (7 years) after they get married. Then comes the wedding feast, that is Armageddon on earth according to Rev. 19. Everything Jesus taught about the Jewish Wedding shows this to be a copy of the traditional weddings. 

We do not need to be crushed in order to be sifted, we are the Barley. Israel are the Wheat and wheat has to be crushed in order to be sifted. The English word tribulation comes from the Greek word Tribulum, which was a machine that crushed wheat. We the church are ready, they are not ready. 

5 hours ago, Triton57 said:

These are a few verses that I think all place the timing of the wrath of God with the redemption of His bride. They are all linked in many places by the signs of the sixth seal, a pivotal moment in history, and Yeshua Himself places the gathering after that or coincidental with it.

 

All of those are speaking about Israel, not the Bride of Christ, there were two brides remember, Rachel the preferred and Leah the forced bride. God married Israel long ago, the Church is Jesus' bride. 

Jesus returns from Edom in Isaiah 63, well that is where the Jews flee unto. 

Matt. 24:29-31 is the 2nd Coming, so its those ELECTED during the 70th week . 

Joel 2:31 is the DOTL, not the 2nd Coming per se.

Isaiah 26 is speaking about Israel hiding in the Petra/Bozrah area. 

Again, you seem to be conflating the Pre Trib Rapture with the 2nd Coming. 

6 hours ago, Triton57 said:

These are a few verses that I think all place the timing of the wrath of God with the redemption of His bride. They are all linked in many places by the signs of the sixth seal, a pivotal moment in history, and Yeshua Himself places the gathering after that or coincidental with it.

 

Israel is God's bride also. You are conflating Israel's salvation with the Churches. We are already saved, we do not need crushing to come unto salvation, they do. 

6 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Your definition of the day of the Lord defined as the day God starts taking back the title deed to earth, is that based on the idea of the seals being broken to open the scroll and that being what's written on the scroll? If so, would you consider the wrath of God to then start after all seven seals are broken, meaning the seals would be broken prior to and/or during the first 3.5 years of the 70th week?

 

Being honest, the Seals are only a Metaphor of symbology used by Jesus so he can show us how this Wrath can not come until his Divine Timeline allows it as in 7 = Divine Completion. Its just an illustration, that's all, but those people 2000 years ago understood that a Sealed Up Message or Scroll could not be read until all 7 Seals were loosed, we seemingly do not understand that now. Jesus is merely saying my wrath will not come until these 7 Seals are loosed from this scroll of Judgments. 

The 7th Seal brings the 1260 days of Gods Wrath in theory, but its only symbolism, God is just telling us His TIMING that's all. 

6 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I would also be curious in the scriptures relating our catching away to the times of the Gentiles. Luke 21:20-26 states that from 70 AD when the destruction happened that Jerusalem would be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. This seems as it could be pretty heavily burdened on personal interpretation. For instance one could say that Israel got control of Jerusalem over half a century ago. Or one might say it's dependent upon Jerusalem not having any Gentiles in it. How is that timing related to the 70th week though?

 

That is not the one you need to go with, I think that one matches the Rev. 11 one speaking about a 42 month rule of the Anti-Christ, you see read Romans chapters 9-11 the whole thing is about how God chooses whom he will to serve Him when He will. Its all about SERVICE, so God chose Jacob over Esau, he chose to harden the Pharaohs heart, he chose the Church over Israel,  to take the Gospel unto the whole world, but Paul is trying to teach the Romans, do not get the big head, God chose another because of Israel's lack of faith, but in Rom. 11 Paul makes this huge point, he says that God has not forsaken Israel, and they will be grafted back in by FAITH at a future point in time, but that Israel were blinded IN PART, as a nation, not as individual, WHY SO? Because they were no nation for nigh 2000 years, thus they could not repent as a nation. So, Paul says I would not have you ignorant, ALL ISRAEL (The Nation, not Every Jew) will be saved, and all this will happen when the "TIME OF THE GENTILES COMES FULL" this is speaking about SERVICE, not a Conquering Beast. All three chapters (go read it) are speaking about SERVICE and hoe the Potter chooses whom He wills. So, this Time of the Gentiles is referring to the Church Age. So, Israel can not repent until the Church is gone !! That is what the Time of the Gentiles mean, its a period of SERVICE. 

If the Time of the Gentiles means they RULED for 2000-2700 years that's it the case, Israel is ruled by no one now, so Paul's TIMES of the Gentiles is only referring unto SERVICE. 

7 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I do see just after that point is the sign of the sixth seal, which would actually fit quite nicely with a Jewish antichrist view such that the rebuilding of the temple and wars of the antichrist in Daniel 11:40-45 leading into the AoD in Daniel 12:1. I could picture the Jews in their religious fervor and thinking the Messiah has arrived and is unbeatable, taking over Jerusalem and pushing everyone else out or something more focused like just pushing them out of the temple area.

 

The Anti-Christ is a Gentile, Greek Born, with Assyrian blood, who comes to power in the E.U. He can't be Jewish, the False Prophet is Jewish (a High Priest) who puts forth the AoD. Most Jews are Atheist unbelieves now, the miracle will be them BELIEVING AGAIN in Christ, they will never accept a Gentile King as their Messiah. See, by getting the nationality wrong it creates other problems.

7 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I believe it could also be tied to the fulness of the Gentiles, Romans 11:25, but I think those are two different focuses. I think the fulness of the Gentiles is the point when Israel's blindness is removed vs. Jerusalem no longer being trodden down by the Gentiles. The blindness being removed I think happens in the time just after the abomination of desolation when the remnant of Israel who refuse to worship the man of sin see him for who he is and follow the warning of Yeshua to run to the mountains. It is after this tribulation in Judea that the sign of the Son of man and the sixth seal comes and the elect are gathered, provoking the remnant to jealousy (Romans 10:19; 11:11) and remaining protected in the wilderness come to know the Messiah they (corporate Israel they) rejected. As Joel 2:32 states, "it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered" and when their blindness is removed after they see the Gentiles and Messianic Jews taken in the rapture, they will call on the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:39, Luke 13:35) They will then come out of that time when Yeshua returns into the Promised Land under His reign.

Yep, its not as people think, the A.C. will just be killing most everyone, except the 3.5-5 million Jews who flee unto the Petra/Bozrah area. He does not profess to be the Jewish Messiah, now they may try to TRICK those in the Petra Area in order to try and get them to come out of their safe zone, but lies are lies, in the regular world, he never professes to be a Jewish Messiah. 

Getting tired, better hit the sack, finish up later.

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I try not to use the term second coming so if I used it before without further explanation I apologize. I believe He came once to live and die and defeat death for the sins of mankind, will come again with sudden wrath and destruction when He gathers the bride of Christ, and then will return with the bride at Armageddon to destroy the gathered armies and setup His millennial kingdom. These are the relevant times related to watching IMO. If you have any other scriptures related to the timing of His future coming outside of the times I mentioned I would be interested in understanding.

Yes, he has been to earth many times. 

There is no way he can return to gather his bride when they return with him as you pointed out in Rev. 19. He gathers those "Elected" after the Pre Trib Rapture at the 2nd Advent. 

The Wedding Pattern

The Lord gave Israel seven feasts in Leviticus 23. The Lord refers to the feasts as appointed times (mowed – Strong’s H4150). Mowed means an appointed time, a specific time. Our Heavenly Father knows the End from the Beginning, and the seven specific appointed times of the seven feasts give us an outline of His overall plan and I believe that some appointed times have been, and all will be literally fulfilled.

Within the Word of God is the pattern of the Church as the Bride of Christ (hereafter noted as Church) being wed to Jesus, and it is preserved to this day in the practice of the traditional Jewish wedding (hereafter noted as Jewish Wedding). This is not to say that the Church has replaced Israel in the Lord’s plan; quite the opposite. Please see Romans 11:11-18, and Romans 11:25-26.

There are two brides found in Scripture, and Rachel and Leah show us this. Please see Leah, the Bride, and Leah's Children.

When I first realized the connection between the feasts and the steps of the wedding, I was troubled by the Fall Feasts. Although "Trumpets" is a favorite feast for those of us listening for the trumpet of the Lord, I could not clearly in my mind make these feasts fit the Church. The Fall Feasts seem to point to the people Israel. Therefore, when I realized there were two different brides which would be dealt with in separate manners, the pieces seemed to fit together.

First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became spiritually adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel,

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

Praise His name, the Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Jews and Gentiles, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (I Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been literally fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

Each year at Pentecost, Jewish synagogues read the entire Book of Ruth. The story of Ruth takes place at the wheat harvest, or Pentecost. This book is a picture of the Lord Jesus and His Gentile bride. Boaz, the Jew, was the kinsman-redeemer. Jesus is our Redeemer. Ruth was a Moabitess, a Gentile. The Church is the Gentile Bride. That very day, the Day of Pentecost, Boaz redeemed Ruth. The marriage is not mentioned, only the commitment, the betrothal, is recorded. The marriage of Boaz and Ruth is noted in conclusion, but not discussed.

Boaz gave Ruth six measures of barley. A measure of barley was a day’s wages. (Revelation 6:6). I think this is a picture of mankind being paid for six millennial days’ work. The Bride, or the Church, will not have to struggle after six millennial days or six thousand years. According to Biblical chronology, it has been about six thousand years.

The six measures of barley were also part of the traditional Jewish wedding Bride price. Boaz said, “Do not go to your mother-in-law empty-handed.”

“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” - I Corinthians 6:20

At the Feast of Pentecost the Bride of Christ was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit and through this Jesus committed to complete the betrothal of the Church when He comes again.

“in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” - Ephesians 1:13-14

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter two, to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - I Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (I Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Jewish Wedding – In Biblical times the groom would add a room to his father’s house. At that time, families lived together.
The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is spoken for and belongs to no one else. Again, refer to Mary and Joseph. (Matthew 1:18-19)
At this point in the process, the Bride is always in readiness. She does not know when the Groom will return for her. For example, see Matthew 25 – The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Jewish Wedding – This was frequently done at midnight for surprise. Matthew 25:6 (the Parable of the Ten Virgins) – “And at midnight a cry (shout) was [heard]: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!’”

Scripture tells us that a prophetic day can equal a year.

“After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities.” - Numbers 14:34

The seven days the Jewish bride and groom spend in the wedding chamber appear to equate to seven prophetic years, which parallels the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy, and is the basis for the concept of seven years of Tribulation.

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” - Daniel 9:27

The Song of Moses, Deuteronomy 32:1-43, is a summary of the Lord’s dealings with Israel. From the summary given by Moses, and many other Scriptures, it appears that the Day of Atonement will be the Day when the Lord Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives and fights against all nations.

“Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east.” - Zechariah 14:1-4

Daniel’s last seven days (Daniel 9:27) appear to parallel the seven years of the Tribulation, while the Bride of Christ is in Heaven consummating union to Jesus Messiah and celebrating with the marriage supper. The next appointed time is the Day of Atonement. This indicates that at the end of the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus will return to redeem and make Atonement for Israel.

The latter part of the Song of Moses is prophetic of the Last Days. The very last verse of the Song of Moses says:

“Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.”

The Hebrew word translated as “merciful” is kaphar (Strong’s H3722), and is rendered “make atonement” in the vast majority of its appearances in the Old Testament. Therefore, this verse could say “He will provide atonement, for His land and His people.”

In the Revelation, the Return of Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords immediately follows the Marriage supper of the Lamb.

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ” – Revelation 19:11-14

Note that the “armies [which were] in heaven” were clothed in fine linen, white and clean, just like the Bride was given in the preceding verse Revelation 19:8. This identifies the “armies” as the Bride of Christ, Saints and Children of God, who will return in victory with the Lord Jesus.

It appears that this day will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

The next, and last, appointed time is the Feast of Tabernacles which was an eight-day event. It occurred at the time of the fall harvest, and was to be a time of joy and celebration.

“Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.” - Deuteronomy 16:13-14

The word tabernacle can be a noun or a verb. With the Tabernacle in the wilderness the word is used as a noun, but it is also a verb describing where the Lord dwelled, or tabernacled, with Israel. In the Kingdom Age the Lord Jesus will dwell, or tabernacle, with mankind.

In the Deuteronomy instructions the Children of Israel are told to celebrate for seven days. In the instructions given in Leviticus 23:33-43 they are told to hold a sacred assembly on the eighth day. In the Bible, seven is the number of completion. Therefore, eight is the number of new beginnings. Noah and his family were eight persons, and represented a new beginning for mankind. A male child was to be circumcized on the eighth day, at the beginning of his life. King David, who laid the foundations for the beginning of the Kingdom of Israel, was the eighth son of Jesse. This eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles indicates new beginnings.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days.

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

The Children of Israel were also instructed to live in booths or tents during this feast. This was to be a memorial of the time when the Lord delivered Israel from Egypt. The Feast of Tabernacles is about the Lord living with mankind and will be fulfilled when the Lord tabernacles with Israel and mankind during the Millennial Kingdom. At that time there will be a New Beginning for the Kingdom of God and His two brides.

The prophetic parallels between the Jewish Wedding and the Church’s Biblical Wedding are simply amazing! What a wonderful picture and wonderful hope this pattern gives to those who are saved and are the Children of God. And only the God of Creation could place this pattern within and throughout the sixty-six books of His Word. Our Heavenly Father is the ultimate Wedding Planner! May His name be praised forever!

---------------------------------------------

Been on the net for 20 years Author UNKOWN by me. 

[WilliamL]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:42 PM, Triton57 said:

I'm not saying Jeremiah or Yeshua speak of a 7-year period, I'm saying that Daniel does in 9:27 when talking about the abomination of desolation in the midst of that week. All four passages prophesied by Daniel, Jeremiah and Yeshua (Daniel 12:1, Jeremiah 30:4-7, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14), have the same language that states each of those three times are unparalleled in history AND that Jacob is saved out of that time, it's cut short. It is therefore logically relevant that all three of these passages are speaking of the same unparalleled time.

 

Once that is established that Daniel places the abomination of desolation in the midst of this week of years, and Yeshua Himself points to that event from Daniel, each of those passages have a little additional understanding to build a vision of that time.

 

Yeshua points to that declaration of Daniel of the timing of the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week stating that when the AoD Daniel talked about happens (whoso readeth, let him understand), run or die in great tribulation.

Yeshua quotes Daniel 12:11 for the "abomination of desolation," not Daniel 9:27, which, in the Hebrew, does not use this term at all. You are quoting others in asserting this view, without checking out their reliability.

An accurate reading of the Hebrew text for Daniel 9:27 can be found here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

Without Daniel 9:27, you cannot provide any evidence for a 7-year period in the End Times, because any such evidence simply does not exist. The only dated End Time time prophecy is for 1260 days/42 months/3-1/2 times, which is found in multiple places in Daniel and Revelation.

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Right, if they thought they were in the DOTL, associated with Christ's coming, that would mean they had missed the catching away as well. They likely understood they were not appointed to God's wrath and were concerned regarding the coming of the Lord and their gathering to Him that they were the 5 foolish virgins.

True, but I do not know if they knew of the 5 Foolish Virgins in 51-52 AD most of the Gospels were written a wee bit later I think, its semantics, the might have heard by word of mouth. Just pointing out things we don't think of in depth. Did they have have printed Gospels for the masses? maybe !! But they probably got everything by word of mouth. 

17 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I agree the bride must depart before the DOTL and the antichrist must both confirm the covenant with many and later declare himself God in the temple before the DOTL.

 

This was Paul's understanding but remember, "Here a little there a little" is a way of studying for a reason. Paul was not per se called unto Prophecy, I think Daniel and John were more-so called unto Prophecy and of course Jesus would be the ultimate authority on Prophecy. So  what do those three say? Well, tbh, it seems they do not say this even is a "Man" per se but an IMAGE instead. 

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

{{{ Notice this  passage above says the Anti-Christ CAUSES the Sacrifice to be taken away (This is Jesus Worship being forbidden by the way) and the tribute to stop, so it is something the Anti-Christ for sure AT LEAST causes to happen }}}

Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand:}

{{{ Jesus infers this is an Image STANDING in the temple where ot ought not to be standing, he never describes this as a Man standing there, as a matter of fact, Jesus knows the 1290 AoD happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ is even allowed to go forth conquering at the 1260 events }}} 

Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth(earth means Israel, Sea means Gentile nation); and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. {A Jewish traitor, he will be a False Prophet like unto Jason}

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. {The WOUND was to the 7 Headed Figurative Beast, Rome was the Wound, the A.C. by Conquering Israel will "Heal the Wound".}

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

{{{ So, Daniel 9:27 says he CAUSES this AoD to come to pass, but this is why knowing the AoD's true timing is 30 days before the Beast comes to power is so very, very important. The 1335, 1290 and 1260 are the KEY to all end time prophetic time lines being understood !! So , "IF WE KNOW" the 1290 is 30 days before the 1260 we therefore "KNOW" that it can not be the Anti-Christ physically standing in the temple of God !! See why its so important? 

Then Jesus tells us when you see the AoD standing in the holy place, as spoke by Daniel (who got it from the Angels & Jesus/Man in Linen) and his instruction in verses 16-21 is to flee Judea and not look back. Question, is it logical that an all knowing God would give a WARNING SIGN to Israel to Flee AFTER the Beast or Anti-Christ had already conquered them? The 1290 is not the Beast/A.C. its the False Prophet making an IMAGE as Rev. 13 shows us. So, the Jews have 30 days to flee unto the Petra/Bozrah safe zone before the Anti-Christ conquers Israel to become The End Time Beast. So, it gets nuanced over the years and everyone goes with Paul's statement over the Jesus, Daniel and John. }}}

18 hours ago, Triton57 said:

You yourself state that the DOTL is in the middle of the week, to which I agree, I just don't know why you must place the catching away before the week when your own statements are that we must be caught up before the DOTL (pre-wrath) and the antichrist revealed before the DOTL and the order Yeshua gives in the Olivet discourse all point to the catching away fulfilling a pre-DOTL timing while also being after the tribulation of those days, which is after the man of sin is revealed in agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. What scripture states the catching away is before the 70th week?

Its just so obvious, but the book of Revelation (BoR), I understand, is very hard to see the actually Chronological Order of, thus people get weird timelines, one day soon, I will show the exact order of the BoR and all of its Parenthetical Citation chapters. 

There are many reasons its a 7 Year Event where there is no Church on earth at this time. Again, you are conflating the ELECT of Matt. 24:31 with the Church, they are not the same elect. The DOTL is not a one day event, it lasts 1260 days via Wrath, then lasts another 1000 years via Jesus' reign on earth. So, the DOTL starts in the middle of the week and ends with the New Heaven and New Earth, where there will be no time anymore, so not days left, AND no sunlight, God will be our light.

You seem to confuse the tribulation here, the DOTL starts the Tribulation, so how can the Church be Raptured BEFORE the DOTL as you say be be Raptured AFTER the tribulation? See the inconsistency there? Matt. 24:31 is not about the Church, its about those Elected or Saved during to 70th week. Yes, they will be gathered 1260 days after the Sun and Moon go dark (Tribulation starts), so Jesus can set up his 1000 year Kingdom Age amongst the Jewish humans on earth. 

Why did do it this way? Its about SERVICE, God had a calling for Israel, she birthed the Messianic Savior but could not live in FAITH ALONE, she trusted in the Law over the Promise. Thus at the very moment the Temple was rent, God forsook Israel and she became as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, and at that very point God called the Gentile Nations into the Service of taking the Gospel unto the whole world. He did say at a PERFECT TIME, the Pax Romanus made the Gospel flourish, all Roads were available to all citizens throughout the Roman Empire, and all nations spoke Greek Koine, so the Gospel had the ability to be spread far and wide, but the Gentiles needed to spread it once the Disciples taught them, because over time, if this "New Religion" had stayed based in Jerusalem, it would have been "Judamized" (if that's a word, LOL) over the next 200-300 years, so God gave it to those who simply understand FAITH, not the Law, which is why Paul chastised the Galatians. 

So, the Gentiles Service was needed to take the Gospel unto the whole world. But once that mission is complete, why should the Bride of Christ stay on the earth any longer? The Wedding (as I show above) Pattern shows a Groom & Bride spending 7 days in the Fathers chambers, so 7 Years in this case. There was NO CHURCH when the 69th week ended, there will be NO CHURCH when the 70th week starts, we are no longer needed on this earth. The Anti-Christ will not be revealed in full until the Middle of the week, but the Church would understand who he is at the beginning of the 70th week with him inviting Israel into the European Union. 

God always has an order He does things in, us misunderstanding snippets here and there should be overcome by His ORDER of things as shown. You see, I think you got this idea from someone and you can't see past it. It happens, but I also think you will get there in the end because you seem to seek truth (IMHO) over self gratification, that's a very, very important trait. God Bless

 

[Revelation Man]

18 hours ago, Triton57 said:

As I attempted to lay out in the Tribulation Nuance post, the cutting short is about a very specific time. I don't think it's talking about the 70th week or the 3 1/2 years of the dragon's tribulation on the saints being cut short. God can't change His plans, they're already completed in eternity, we're just stuck in space-time thinking linearly. The cutting short that is clearly stated is directly related to the time of Jacob's trouble that they will be supernaturally protected from after a short time.

 

Jacob's Troubles IS  THE Tribulation Period, it is designed to get Israel to repent. God will Judge the whole evil world, and that will include 2/3 of the Jews getting killed. I am telling you, on this people OVERTHINK it, Jesus was simply saying the reason the "Troubles are only going to be 1260 days is that if he and the Father allowed it to be lets say another 6 months no life on earth would be left, so him returning and killing the Beast will "SHORTEN the Troubles" because the Beast would have killed off the whole world. So, Jesus is just telling the Disciples he will shorten those troubles when he returns.

18 hours ago, Triton57 said:

This unparalleled time is the start of the 3 1/2 year tribulation, but it is not the whole of it. There is no stated period of time for Jacob's trouble to encompass so the cutting short isn't a statement of a set period being changed to be shorter. It is a statement that Jacob's trouble will not and could not last for the whole 3 1/2 years of the antichrist's tribulation on the saints because none in Judea who refused to bow to him would survive that long of a time. So for those in Judea we see the unparalleled great tribulation is interrupted by them being protected from the dragon in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. Revelation 12:13-16

Yes there is, read Daniel 12:7 the Man in Linen (Jesus) tells us exactly how long those troubles last. (a Time, Times and half time)

Dan. 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;(1260 days) and when he (A.C.) shall have accomplished to scatter the power(Conquers Israel) of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

This says in modern lingo, from the time Israel is Conquered by the Anti-Christ there shall only be 1260 days until all of these things come to an end. 

The Anti-Christs main job is to try to kill every Jew, see Hitler. While he is killing the 2/3 the 1/3, though saved and protected, are in TROUBLES, their families are being massacred at the same time, that is "troubles". This will go on for 1260 days. The Dragon tries to get at the woman for how long? 126o days.

You see the point? The Cutting short is not speaking about the 1/3 being protected, its speaking about the A.C. being killed. If you were protected by most of your family were being killed, you would see that as Great Troubles brother.

18 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I agree, the seals are all broken before the scroll can be opened and the judgments occur during the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls of God's wrath. I also agree Joel 2:31 references the 6th seal. What scripture explains differently what Yeshua stated?

 

Matthew 24:29-31

You are conflating the Elect of the 70th week with the Elect of the Church Age.

[Revelation Man]

18 hours ago, Triton57 said:

There may be symbology in the numbers, but I don't know how many 1/3 of Israel will be. I take a plain reading that 144,000 is 12,000 of each tribe as stated. Whether that makes up all of the 1/3 or not I can't say. I concur this is before the DOTL.

Some people insist its a plain reading, but what about the "ONE WOMAN" in Rev. 12 ? Or, the 10 Virgin Brides? Which stands for the COMPLETE Church, but of course its not 10 Virgin Brides, it represents 2 Billion Male and Female Christians, and only about one (1) Billion will make the Wedding Call (Rapture). We can't accept certain symbological codes but not others IMHO. 

We know how many 1/3 will be, there are 15 million Jews worldwide and 10 million living in Israel, thus I say 3.5-5 million Jews repent. Anytime you see a "Perfect Number" throw it out, especially if it is TIMED. God does not choose who gets saved per se, we chose to come unto God,  so perfect numbers should not be a thing, anytime you can take two numbers God uses like 10 (Completion) 7 (Divine Completion) or 12 (Fullness) and times them and they fit a Number God gives us it is an ENCODED MESSAGE for the masses !! Why not 143, 823? Because that can not be a CODEED MESSAGE !! When God TIMES numbers He is placing an added Emphasis on that message. The Number 666 is the Number of man, so in this God is telling us the Last Beast is not a Kingdom like the other Six Beast Kingdoms were but ONE MAN (666). 

Gotta run, work to do in the garage. God Bless

[Revelation Man]

20 hours ago, Triton57 said:

The pre-trib view ties their timing to the tribulation, which is poorly understood by most and I typically hear the 7-year tribulation, which makes no scriptural sense.

I call it the 70th week, because it is tied to Israel, not the Church. But I do not correct those who say 70th week trib unless they called it the 7 years of the Greatest Ever Troubles. Why? Because, as Jesus tells us in John 16:33:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So, Jesus Christ told the Disciples, and thus us the Church that we would have CONTINUAL TROUBLES whilst on this earth. So, this is why is, as you say, CHANGED my understanding of Rev. 7:9-16, I know understood they came of of Great Tribulation, not the Greatest Ever Troubles (which can not happen, no one in the 70th week can be Raptured as per scriptures). Millions of our brothers have died spreading this Gospel, many more were persecuted freeing the Western Civilizations from the grips of these false gods like Jupiter, Zeus et al. So, since ALL TIME (Jesus' words) is Tribulation, the 70th week in full will also be Tribulation, but only the last 3.5 years is the Greatest Tribulation ever seen. So, the real rub is we tie the Rapture to the 70th week, which is not a part of the Church Age, its about Israel. There was no Church during the first 69 weeks, there will be no church during the 70th week. 

20 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I see Revelation 14:14-20 as a flashback as well, a kind of view of the fulness of the Gentiles pre-wrath being reaped because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Only verses 14-16 is a FLASHBACK, here is why. Remember I stated the BoR is not in Chronological Order? Well, Rev. 14 is one of those Parenthetical Citation Chapters. It has a certain theme to it, lets call it "The Harvest chapter". In it we get the Harvest of the Wheat (144,000) who is Israel, they will be gathered into the Fathers barn, they have the Fathers name on their forehead, they are the Fathers Bride. This happens after Jesus' 2nd coming, thus he "meets then on Mt. Zion" upon arrival but that is just prose, we all know Israel are being protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, so why are they shown on Mt. Zion? Because a picture is being given unto us that Jesus will rule with Israel from Jerusalem for the 1000 year Kingdom Age. Then at the very end, verses 17-20 is the Wicked Grapes (Tares), they will be killed via the Wine-press of God's Wrath and placed in the grave to be "burned later" (1000 years later at the 2nd Resurrection). See how this fits the Wheat and Tares Parable also? Now, how can Rev. 14, the Harvest Chapter, tell us about the Pre Trib Church Rapture in the same chapter? Well, with a FLASHBACK only of Jesus' Harvesting his Church from  upon a cloud, meaning he calls us up unto him. Notice the Angels Harvest the Wicked Grapes, but Jesus harvest the Church Pre Trib, 7 years before the very end. 

21 hours ago, Triton57 said:

Again what I don't see in Revelation 14:14 is the harvest mentioned in relationship to the week. If one has their framework decided in their mind, that can certainly be assumed, and often is. The concept of the "second coming" has no bearing on my perspective.

Yes, but we do not need to see it specified as per unto when it is, we already know when it is AND we see Jesus Harvests them from upon a cloud, meaning this is only a rapture to heaven of the elect, unlike the 2nd coming where the elect will be remaining on this earth to rule with Jesus from Jerusalem during the 1000 year Kingdom Age.

21 hours ago, Triton57 said:

It's funny because I'm likewise amazed at how many can't see the pre-wrath catching away. Every time I look at the scriptures on this topic I see passage after passage, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little that all point to it. But I suppose that's why God wrote it that way in Israel's case. I'm open to being show the precepts and lines I'm missing because I'll never say I have it all figured out, that's when I usually get humbled.

The Rapture of the Church was not a part of God's "Plans for Israel" per se, so that is an insertion by God, that is why, of course, its not seen very well in the Old Testament, we can see shadows. We see it in the New Testament via Paul mostly. In order to understand it in full we have to be able to catch the cloaked concepts of things like the Jewish Wedding Patterns. 

 

[Revelation Man]

23 hours ago, Triton57 said:

That's a good reasoning. I suppose I'm less inclined to name the EU, or anyone really, as being that power over Israel because I can envision it playing out several different ways. For instance the whole of Daniel 9:27 is centered around the man of sin starting the week and starting the tribulation half-way through. We see in Revelation 12 that the dragon is the ultimate power behind it and the ultimate personification of the horns and mountains and other prophetic associations of the nations that were over Israel. In fact they seem to grow from that, which is why the EU or WEU or ENPI, etc. are high on the list of possibilities as they would seem to come from the Roman origins.

 

Actually God starts the TROUBLES Himself in 2 ways, the Asteroid Apophis will hit on April, 13, 2029, and God will then allow the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering. Just like God allowed Israel to have "The King they Desired" even though He did not desire them to have a King, likewise this King will be allowed, God gives them their hearts desire. Not a Messiah, but a King. 

Here is the thing, I ain't guessing, I understand it. The Fourth Beast was Rome, the E.U. when it conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region (including Israel) will be the 10 Heads (Complete Europe Reunited, not 27 or 25 nations because 10 is FLUID, it covers ever form, from the first few nation, to those added, it means the Compete Number Thereof. Just like the 10 Toes. which are IRON and CLAY, you get that? Iron is Rome right? So, we are being told this is Rome Reunited, BUT its Strong and Weak but why? Because most of the nations in this Reunited Beast Nation are weak, like Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, etc. etc. Then you have your strong nations like Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and England who I assume will rejoin, but maybe not. So, its the same Base Rome had, we can see that by looking at the maps I provided earlier.

Daniel 8:9 also MANDATES the end time Anti-Christ be born in Greece. I am not guessing there either. It shows what direction he conquers in, WATCH:

Dan. 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

We know that WAXES GREAT TOWARDS means he conquers because he conquers Israel. So, this coming end time Anti-Christ will Conquer TOWARDS the South (Egypt/Ptolemy) TOWARDS the East (Turkey/Seleucus) and TOWARDS Israel. So, he MUST CONQUER from the Northwest Corridor of this simple four way directional box God gave us with these Four Generals Kingdoms. And that means Cassander, and that means he has to be born in Greece, and Greece is in the E.U. It all adds up, there is no guessing. 

He Conquers towards the South, East and Israel, the end time King of the North is born in Greece, and will come to power in the Head of the Fourth Beasts Territory. We can clearly see this in Dan. 11:40-43.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north(A.C.) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries(THE MANY), and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land(Israel), and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. ( These are the area where Israel will flee unto in Central and Southern Jordan, the Petra/Bozrah safezone).

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So, this tyrant Anti-Christ will conquer MANY COUNTRIES, in and around Israel, in order to get at them, he rolls through those nations, including Turkey as Dan. 8:9 says, we know Lebanon, much of Jordan, Syria, and ALL of North Africa falls, thus adding the E.U, together with the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, we have a Revived Rome type Empire on a map, but its ran by ONE MAN instead, the Anti-Christ/Beast (666). 

But I get the hesitation. Its just my bag, my calling, my KNOWER knows it. 

On 9/4/2023 at 7:52 PM, Triton57 said:

But that ultimate power behind the beast over them is the dragon, the final beast that will ever be over Israel. He is deceptive and crafty, a trait we are warned will be part of the end time deception. The dragon can use any puppets he wants to bring about his plans. One option would be to use Israel against herself, seeming to fulfill the Messianic prophecies they are still looking for from the Old Testament deceive Israel and turn families against each other. Deceiving them to worship him and possibly even those who don't know their scriptures and will be deceived by this christ-wannabe that doesn't come from the heavens when he comes.

He moves the chess pieces, but he has no physical body. Most of the Jews are Atheists, they are not looking for a Messiah, 2/3 will die, the 1/3 KNOW THE TRUTH, as Jesus says in Matt. 24:24-27, it is not possible for them to be deceived, so says Jesus  in those verses, that is what IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, the very elect would be deceived, its not because Jesus says I will not be in the Desert or Storeroom (Do not fall for it), I WILL BE COMING in the Eastern Skies, so there is no way to deceive the 1/3 who repent, they will not look for someone in Jerusalem etc. etc. but for Jesus bursting forth in the Eastern Skies, glory to God, Amen.

Israel, not even the 2/3 worship a Gentile King, this is just a bad misconception by a lot of people that see John 5:43 as END TIME EVENTS, its not, as I stated earlier.  He is not trying to be "Jesus" he wants to be worshiped as GOD himself. The reason the 2/3 will die is the continue to reject Jesus, who would have given them a safe harbor, Satan's wannabe beast Hitler did not need to be worshiped, he just killed the 6 million Jews with barbaric power.

On 9/4/2023 at 7:52 PM, Triton57 said:

I'm open to any way it manifests, but for sure a confirmation of the covenant to restore rebuild the temple and restore the daily sacrifice, whatever instrument that comes through, will have my undivided attention, unless I find some scripture stating I'll be gone before that happens. But that won't stop me from watching.

Most people are WAY OFF on what is TAKEN AWAY, its not a stupid, profane meat sacrifice that DEFILES the Temple when its taken away, its Jesus worship that is STOPPED. Then the  IMAGE can defile the temple, which has been cleansed, but how? By worshiping Jesus in the temple, it can not be cleansed until Israel repents. So, even if they build a temple (they will) if someone placed an IMAGE of a Devil inside it that would not defile the Temple which is already defiled, why? Because Israel rejected Jesus, God thus left or rent the Temple, until God returns the Temple is still defiled, He will not return until Israel repents. ONLY THEN............can the temple be defiled by an IMAGE of the Beast. So, the Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, Israel repents, then at the 1290 a Jewish High Priest gets his orders from the E.U. President, and Jesus Worship is forbidden, AND he places an IMAGE of the E.U. President up in the temple, thereby defiling the Temple of God !!

On 9/4/2023 at 7:52 PM, Triton57 said:

Which brings up another point. We're told to watch that we aren't taken unaware. If the catching away is before anything that we would be watching for happens, why are we told to watch so many times in relation to Christ's return?

Its SEMANTICS, it means to watch yourself introspectively, do not let yourself fall back into sin, else if Jesus comes ad catches you UNAWARES you will be one of the "5 Virgin Brides" left on earth. 

On 9/4/2023 at 7:57 PM, Triton57 said:

I can see that, it just seems that "seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city" would mean the fulfillment of that would have to be tied to Israel in the land because that combination is what the seventy weeks are determined for.

Well, Israel are in the land, but even if they had all of Jerusalem, they never received all of the Promised land. The 70 weeks are designed by God to get Israel to repent. In fact it can not come to pass until the do repent. 

On 9/4/2023 at 8:07 PM, Triton57 said:

Ok, so you see Matthew 24:30 as Revelation 19:11-21? Would the gathering in Matthew 24:31 not be the catching away in your view and instead Revelation 20:4-6 resurrection? I would take it then the one end of heaven to the other is considered an expression and not literally in the skies, just all over the earth?

Yes indeed I do.

No, its not the Rapture at all, this is the 2nd Coming/Advent. Yes it is Rev. 20:4 and it does just mean in every direction. I used to think it meant the Church was gathered FROM Heavens four Corners to return with Jesus, its possible, but by then we are the Bride not the Elect per se.

Work to do, later, God Bless.