Tribulation Nuance

[Triton57]

I think there is a lot of nuance related to the "tribulation" that is equally missed by what I think is glossing over some key points made about the tribulation. In short, I think the confusion between the dragon's wrath on God's people and God's wrath on the dragon's people in addition to the Revelation 12:13-17 distinction of the time that starts the time of Jacob's trouble at the abomination of desolation and the focus of the unparalleled time of great tribulation.

 

Jeremiah 30:4-7

And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

 

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Each of these three passages state that a time of paralleled tribulation will come concerning Israel and Judah, at a time when Michael who stand's for Daniel's people Israel, and occurs physically in Judea according to Yeshua. Since you can't have 3 unparalleled times that are different from each other, they are the same time. In addition in all three the elect, by definition in all these passages being Israel, is saved out of this time as it is cut short for their sake. And Yeshua states that just after this unparalleled time will follow the sixth seal and the gathering of the elect.

 

This is in agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 that the apostasia and revealing of the man of sin when Michael stands up must come before the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him. So technically that gathering happens after the tribulation begins. It may also be that this apostasy is directly related to the strong delusion God sends that people believe a lie. It is my belief that this lie is the coming of the Messiah for the Jews, who is actually the man of sin on the earth, and the return of Christ for the Christians, who don't know the Word and to look for Him coming in the clouds and not on the earth.

 

However, we have several exact day prophecies that when put together create a framework of the 70th week of Daniel, in the midst of which this period occurs.

 

Daniel 12:11

And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

This 1,290 days starts at the AoD, but doesn't define an end point. I believe we get that from the context of the passage. This passage is all about Israel and starts with the AoD Daniel also prophesied about in Daniel 9:27, the 70th week of Daniel, that last period of seven years that God would complete His work with Israel to fulfill His promises before they dwell in the land during His reign.

 

Daniel 12:7

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

 

Revelation 13:3-8

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Daniel 7:25-26

And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

 

These also all start at the time of the AoD and state that dragon puppet will be given power for 3 1/2 years, or 42 months. We know this time ends when Christ comes at Armageddon and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and binds the dragon for 1,000 years.

 

Revelation 12:13-17

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

So here we see that just after Michael casts the dragon from heaven to the earth the woman, Israel, is persecuted by the dragon, but she is whisked away to the wilderness where she's protected from the dragon for 3 1/2 years. So if this is true, how can the dragon be given power for 3 1/2 years, persecute Israel and Israel be protected from the dragon for 3 1/2 years?

 

I believe the answer is the combination of the 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11, from the abomination of desolation to the end of the 70th week of Daniel. The dragon gets his power at the AoD and persecutes Israel for about 30 days before the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea is cut short by the remnant of Israel being taken to the wilderness until the end of the 70th week appointed for her.

 

We see this in Revelation 12:17, where the dragon transitions from Israel to the remnant of her seed. These would be any of Israel not in Judea, and therefore not taken to the wilderness, and those with the testimony of Christ. This implies the tribulation, dragon's wrath on God's people, has two phases. First to Israel in Judea, then to the world globally.

 

Taking what Yeshua said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, it is after this short period of unparalleled tribulation that the sign of the sixth seal comes, and Christ arrives to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other. Those spoken of in Revelation 2:22 are the sleeping and adulterous church who place their earthly lives above God, thinking He has delayed his coming and acting no different than those of the world. They may have their lamps awaiting the return of Christ, but they will be shut out of the marriage and remain on earth cast into great tribulation, the hour of temptation that the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10 is promised to be kept from.

 

I believe, based on the exact day prophecies, the time of Jacob's trouble will be very short and it won't be until the remaining 1,230 or so days that the mark of the beast and all of that happens more globally. This is where, like the temptations of Christ, those left behind will have to make a life and death choice, have faith in Christ unto death, or capitulate to save their mortal lives. In saving their life they will lose it and those losing their life will save it. These are the ones in Revelation 20:4 who died during this time and are part of the first resurrection (not caught up) to reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

 

If you're like me and it helps to see this visually, please see this chart.

 

This is the nuance of the tribulation that I think is missed and why there's so much contention about the catching away, but every time I review the scriptures I find them in agreement with each other. Not everyone will be the bride of Christ, but those who remain in Him will still be part of the first resurrection and live in eternity as they remain in Him.

 

It also causes me to sympathize with just about all the rapture positions. Are all the rapture positions right from their view as I understand them without this nuanced view of the tribulation?

 

• Pre-trib - Usually call the whole seven years and/or the wrath of God the tribulation. So they believe we are caught up before the tribulation. Defining this tribulation as seven years, they place it before the 70th week of Daniel.
• Mid-trib - Still centers around timing according to the tribulation, but are typically looking at some unknown or extended point within that global tribulation time before being caught up.
• Pre-wrath - Defines the catching away based on the wrath of God, typically considered the day of the Lord
• Post-trib - Sees the scriptures about the dead in Christ under the altar who went through great tribulation and are resurrected from it among others, placing the catching away at the same time Christ returns around the end of the tribulation.

 

I believe the synthesis is that you must define "tribulation" according to scripture very specifically and in detail because that detail is in the scripture. You must differentiate God and dragon's wrath to know what is appointed to us or not. You must see that the 70th week is not about the Western church, but about Israel and Judea and that the great tribulation starts on Israel in Judea with the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the man of sin declaring himself to be god. God has a promise to keep that He has already kept for those who believe, but Israel is still blinded and a remnant must be purified and tried through fire to come into the Promised Land during the reign of Christ so He will fulfill His promise to her.

 

So in this view, we will be saved from God's wrath and the worst of the tribulation outside of Judea. We will be here for part of the great tribulation, but a very short portion of it. There will be Christians who are killed both in Judea whose souls will be under the altar and resurrected and caught up with the rest of the faithful bride before the wrath of God. After Christ returns at the end of the dragon's time, He will resurrect those who were killed for His name during that time and they will reign with Him 1,000 years. All are part of the first resurrection:

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-26

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

 

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

We see that the first resurrection doesn’t mean there are more after it, it means that it's not the last resurrection. Christ is the firstfruits and then those that are His (bride) at His coming. Revelation shows after the reign of the man of sin is destroyed, those who died during that time are resurrected and it's explicitly called the first resurrection. That it's separated like this from the second death, which follows the great white throne judgment we can see there is a first and a last resurrection that come at specified times in stages.

 

AdHoc pointed out in The Ten Virgins thread, "the harvest in Leviticus 23 and look at the farmers harvesting, we notice that the harvest, although it is one harvest of one crop, is divided into THREE gatherings. They are (i) the firstfruits, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. The firstfruits are those fruits which ripen before the others and are taken into the farmer's house for his enjoyment. The rest of the crop must have more time in the heat and dryness and are then harvested. The gleaning are left to profit the weak and underprivileged."

 

I believe scripture says the sixth seal and Christ's return in glory come in the midst of that period of time, just after it's cut short with Israel protected in the wilderness. The faithful bride will be ready before having to see Him coming, they will be watching. They will see the signs coming and with anticipation look up for her redemption before the wrath of God is poured out. She will meet Him in the clouds and go to the marriage of the Lamb in heaven and return following Him on white horses when He comes to take the kingdoms after the wrath is completed.

 

I don't think there needs to be division amongst the body of Christ on the topic of her blessed hope, although I know there will be. I doubt anyone has come up with their theories based on any kind of malice or purposeful error so I give the benefit of the doubt that like me we are all stumbling through understanding and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in His Word.

 

I believe the scriptures all point to aspects of each view being correct IF the terms are well defined logically from scripture and the nuances of the great tribulation are understood in light of God's plan for His waiting bride and His plan for His chosen people. Ultimately that will be redemption for all in eternity in the presence of God and of His Christ and our Redeemer Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

 

I do not claim to have all the answers or know the Word forward and back, far from it! I encourage all iron sharpening in love as we grow toward a greater understanding of God's plan and I know I could be wrong on aspects of this complicated topic. That's the beauty of forums like this, where we can grow together.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Triton57
Forgot to add link to chart

[Michael37]

15 minutes ago, Triton57 said:

I think there is a lot of nuance related to the "tribulation" that is equally missed by what I think is glossing over some key points made about the tribulation. In short, I think the confusion between the dragon's wrath on God's people and God's wrath on the dragon's people in addition to the Revelation 12:13-17 distinction of the time that starts the time of Jacob's trouble at the abomination of desolation and the focus of the unparalleled time of great tribulation.

 

Jeremiah 30:4-7

And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

 

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Each of these three passages state that a time of paralleled tribulation will come concerning Israel and Judah, at a time when Michael who stand's for Daniel's people Israel, and occurs physically in Judea according to Yeshua. Since you can't have 3 unparalleled times that are different from each other, they are the same time. In addition in all three the elect, by definition in all these passages being Israel, is saved out of this time as it is cut short for their sake. And Yeshua states that just after this unparalleled time will follow the sixth seal and the gathering of the elect.

 

This is in agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 that the apostasia and revealing of the man of sin when Michael stands up must come before the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him. So technically that gathering happens after the tribulation begins. It may also be that this apostasy is directly related to the strong delusion God sends that people believe a lie. It is my belief that this lie is the coming of the Messiah for the Jews, who is actually the man of sin on the earth, and the return of Christ for the Christians, who don't know the Word and to look for Him coming in the clouds and not on the earth.

 

However, we have several exact day prophecies that when put together create a framework of the 70th week of Daniel, in the midst of which this period occurs.

 

Daniel 12:11

And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

This 1290 days starts at the AoD, but doesn't define an end point. I believe we get that from the context of the passage. This passage is all about Israel and starts with the AoD Daniel also prophesied about in Daniel 9:27, the 70th week of Daniel, that last period of seven years that God would complete His work with Israel to fulfill His promises before they dwell in the land during His reign.

 

Daniel 12:7

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

 

Revelation 13:3-8

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Daniel 7:25-26

And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

 

These also all start at the time of the AoD and state that dragon puppet will be given power for 3 1/2 years, or 42 months. We know this time ends when Christ comes at Armageddon and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and binds the dragon for 1,000 years.

 

Revelation 12:13-17

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

So here we see that just after Michael casts the dragon from heaven to the earth the woman, Israel, is persecuted by the dragon, but she is whisked away to the wilderness where she's protected from the dragon for 3 1/2 years. So if this is true, how can the dragon be given power for 3 1/2 years, persecute Israel and Israel be protected from the dragon for 3 1/2 years?

 

I believe the answer is the combination of the 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11, from the abomination of desolation to the end of the 70th week of Daniel. The dragon gets his power at the AoD and persecutes Israel for about 30 days before the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea is cut short by the remnant of Israel being taken to the wilderness until the end of the 70th week appointed for her.

 

We see this in Revelation 12:17, where the dragon transitions from Israel to the remnant of her seed. These would be any of Israel not in Judea, and therefore not taken to the wilderness, and those with the testimony of Christ. This implies the tribulation, dragon's wrath on God's people, has two phases. First to Israel in Judea, then to the world globally.

 

Taking what Yeshua said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, it is after this short period of unparalleled tribulation that the sign of the sixth seal comes, and Christ arrives to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other. Those spoken of in Revelation 2:22 are the sleeping and adulterous church who place their earthly lives above God, thinking He has delayed his coming and acting no different than those of the world. They may have their lamps awaiting the return of Christ, but they will be shut out of the marriage and remain on earth cast into great tribulation, the hour of temptation that the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10 is promised to be kept from.

 

I believe, based on the exact day prophecies, the time of Jacob's trouble will be very short and it won't be until the remaining 1,230 or so days that the mark of the beast and all of that happens more globally. This is where, like the temptations of Christ, those left behind will have to make a life and death choice, have faith in Christ unto death, or capitulate to save their mortal lives. In saving their life they will lose it and those losing their life will save it. These are the ones in Revelation 20:4 who died during this time and are part of the first resurrection (not caught up) to reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

 

This is the nuance of the tribulation that I think is missed and why there's so much contention about the catching away, but every time I review the scriptures I find them in agreement with each other. Not everyone will be the bride of Christ, but those who remain in Him will still be part of the first resurrection and live in eternity as they remain in Him.

 

It also causes me to sympathize with just about all the rapture positions. Are all the rapture positions right from their view as I understand them without this nuanced view of the tribulation?

 

• Pre-trib - Usually call the whole seven years and/or the wrath of God the tribulation. So they believe we are caught up before the tribulation. Defining this tribulation as seven years, they place it before the 70th week of Daniel.
• Mid-trib - Still centers around timing according to the tribulation, but are typically looking at some unknown or extended point within that global tribulation time before being caught up.
• Pre-wrath - Defines the catching away based on the wrath of God, typically considered the day of the Lord
• Post-trib - Sees the scriptures about the dead in Christ under the altar who went through great tribulation and are resurrected from it among others, placing the catching away at the same time Christ returns around the end of the tribulation.

 

I believe the synthesis is that you must define "tribulation" according to scripture very specifically and in detail because that detail is in the scripture. You must differentiate God and dragon's wrath to know what is appointed to us or not. You must see that the 70th week is not about the Western church, but about Israel and Judea and that the great tribulation starts on Israel in Judea with the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the man of sin declaring himself to be god. God has a promise to keep that He has already kept for those who believe, but Israel is still blinded and a remnant must be purified and tried through fire to come into the Promised Land during the reign of Christ so He will fulfill His promise to her.

 

So in this view, we will be saved from God's wrath and the worst of the tribulation outside of Judea. We will be here for part of the great tribulation, but a very short portion of it. There will be Christians who are killed both in Judea whose souls will be under the altar and resurrected and caught up with the rest of the faithful bride before the wrath of God. After Christ returns at the end of the dragon's time, He will resurrect those who were killed for His name during that time and they will reign with Him 1,000 years. All are part of the first resurrection:

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-26

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

 

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

We see that the first resurrection doesn’t mean there are more after it, it means that it's not the last resurrection. Christ is the firstfruits and then those that are His (bride) at His coming. Revelation shows after the reign of the man of sin is destroyed, those who died during that time are resurrected and it's explicitly called the first resurrection. That it's separated like this from the second death, which follows the great white throne judgment we can see there is a first and a last resurrection that come at specified times in stages.

 

AdHoc pointed out in The Ten Virgins thread, "the harvest in Leviticus 23 and look at the farmers harvesting, we notice that the harvest, although it is one harvest of one crop, is divided into THREE gatherings. They are (i) the firstfruits, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. The firstfruits are those fruits which ripen before the others and are taken into the farmer's house for his enjoyment. The rest of the crop must have more time in the heat and dryness and are then harvested. The gleaning are left to profit the weak and underprivileged."

 

I believe scripture says the sixth seal and Christ's return in glory come in the midst of that period of time, just after it's cut short with Israel protected in the wilderness. The faithful bride will be ready before having to see Him coming, they will be watching. They will see the signs coming and with anticipation look up for her redemption before the wrath of God is poured out. She will meet Him in the clouds and go to the marriage of the Lamb in heaven and return following Him on white horses when He comes to take the kingdoms after the wrath is completed.

 

I don't think there needs to be division amongst the body of Christ on the topic of her blessed hope, although I know there will be. I doubt anyone has come up with their theories based on any kind of malice or purposeful error so I give the benefit of the doubt that like me we are all stumbling through understanding and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in His Word.

 

I believe the scriptures all point to aspects of each view being correct IF the terms are well defined logically from scripture and the nuances of the great tribulation are understood in light of God's plan for His waiting bride and His plan for His chosen people. Ultimately that will be redemption for all in eternity in the presence of God and of His Christ and our Redeemer Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

 

I do not claim to have all the answers or know the Word forward and back, far from it! I encourage all iron sharpening in love as we grow toward a greater understanding of God's plan and I know I could be wrong on aspects of this complicated topic. That's the beauty of forums like this, where we can grow together.

A well-presented composition @Triton57

[Triton57]

12 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

A well-presented composition @Triton57

 

I've been dwelling and chewing on this for a while, hopefully it is slightly clearer than mud.

[Michael37]

18 minutes ago, Triton57 said:

 

I've been dwelling and chewing on this for a while, hopefully it is slightly clearer than mud.

There have been duels, with charts, no less. Here's my contribution.

[douggg]

57 minutes ago, Triton57 said:

I think there is a lot of nuance related to the "tribulation" that is equally missed by what I think is glossing over some key points made about the tribulation.

If you stopped calling it "the tribulation" and call it "the great tribulation" it would help.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Triton57 said:

f you're like me and it helps to see this visually, please see this chart.

I looked at your chart and one of the things that you have wrong is the 1335 days.    The 1335 runs from when the AoD is setup until the day Jesus returns. 

Try making a timeline chart that has the critical path of events like the timeline chart I made....

The critical path is the red-line.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by douggg

[Justin Adams]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

If you stopped calling it "the tribulation" and call it "the great tribulation" it would help.

It already happened. There might be more later, but all of the so-called Darby stuff happened befor the end of the 1st century.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

4 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I think there is a lot of nuance related to the "tribulation" that is equally missed by what I think is glossing over some key points made about the tribulation. In short, I think the confusion between the dragon's wrath on God's people and God's wrath on the dragon's people in addition to the Revelation 12:13-17 distinction of the time that starts the time of Jacob's trouble at the abomination of desolation and the focus of the unparalleled time of great tribulation.

 

Jeremiah 30:4-7

And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

 

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Each of these three passages state that a time of paralleled tribulation will come concerning Israel and Judah, at a time when Michael who stand's for Daniel's people Israel, and occurs physically in Judea according to Yeshua. Since you can't have 3 unparalleled times that are different from each other, they are the same time. In addition in all three the elect, by definition in all these passages being Israel, is saved out of this time as it is cut short for their sake. And Yeshua states that just after this unparalleled time will follow the sixth seal and the gathering of the elect.

 

This is in agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 that the apostasia and revealing of the man of sin when Michael stands up must come before the coming of our Lord and our gathering to Him. So technically that gathering happens after the tribulation begins. It may also be that this apostasy is directly related to the strong delusion God sends that people believe a lie. It is my belief that this lie is the coming of the Messiah for the Jews, who is actually the man of sin on the earth, and the return of Christ for the Christians, who don't know the Word and to look for Him coming in the clouds and not on the earth.

 

However, we have several exact day prophecies that when put together create a framework of the 70th week of Daniel, in the midst of which this period occurs.

 

Daniel 12:11

And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

This 1,290 days starts at the AoD, but doesn't define an end point. I believe we get that from the context of the passage. This passage is all about Israel and starts with the AoD Daniel also prophesied about in Daniel 9:27, the 70th week of Daniel, that last period of seven years that God would complete His work with Israel to fulfill His promises before they dwell in the land during His reign.

 

Daniel 12:7

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

 

Revelation 13:3-8

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Daniel 7:25-26

And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

 

These also all start at the time of the AoD and state that dragon puppet will be given power for 3 1/2 years, or 42 months. We know this time ends when Christ comes at Armageddon and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and binds the dragon for 1,000 years.

 

Revelation 12:13-17

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

So here we see that just after Michael casts the dragon from heaven to the earth the woman, Israel, is persecuted by the dragon, but she is whisked away to the wilderness where she's protected from the dragon for 3 1/2 years. So if this is true, how can the dragon be given power for 3 1/2 years, persecute Israel and Israel be protected from the dragon for 3 1/2 years?

 

I believe the answer is the combination of the 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11, from the abomination of desolation to the end of the 70th week of Daniel. The dragon gets his power at the AoD and persecutes Israel for about 30 days before the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea is cut short by the remnant of Israel being taken to the wilderness until the end of the 70th week appointed for her.

 

We see this in Revelation 12:17, where the dragon transitions from Israel to the remnant of her seed. These would be any of Israel not in Judea, and therefore not taken to the wilderness, and those with the testimony of Christ. This implies the tribulation, dragon's wrath on God's people, has two phases. First to Israel in Judea, then to the world globally.

 

Taking what Yeshua said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, it is after this short period of unparalleled tribulation that the sign of the sixth seal comes, and Christ arrives to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other. Those spoken of in Revelation 2:22 are the sleeping and adulterous church who place their earthly lives above God, thinking He has delayed his coming and acting no different than those of the world. They may have their lamps awaiting the return of Christ, but they will be shut out of the marriage and remain on earth cast into great tribulation, the hour of temptation that the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10 is promised to be kept from.

 

I believe, based on the exact day prophecies, the time of Jacob's trouble will be very short and it won't be until the remaining 1,230 or so days that the mark of the beast and all of that happens more globally. This is where, like the temptations of Christ, those left behind will have to make a life and death choice, have faith in Christ unto death, or capitulate to save their mortal lives. In saving their life they will lose it and those losing their life will save it. These are the ones in Revelation 20:4 who died during this time and are part of the first resurrection (not caught up) to reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

 

If you're like me and it helps to see this visually, please see this chart.

 

This is the nuance of the tribulation that I think is missed and why there's so much contention about the catching away, but every time I review the scriptures I find them in agreement with each other. Not everyone will be the bride of Christ, but those who remain in Him will still be part of the first resurrection and live in eternity as they remain in Him.

 

It also causes me to sympathize with just about all the rapture positions. Are all the rapture positions right from their view as I understand them without this nuanced view of the tribulation?

 

• Pre-trib - Usually call the whole seven years and/or the wrath of God the tribulation. So they believe we are caught up before the tribulation. Defining this tribulation as seven years, they place it before the 70th week of Daniel.
• Mid-trib - Still centers around timing according to the tribulation, but are typically looking at some unknown or extended point within that global tribulation time before being caught up.
• Pre-wrath - Defines the catching away based on the wrath of God, typically considered the day of the Lord
• Post-trib - Sees the scriptures about the dead in Christ under the altar who went through great tribulation and are resurrected from it among others, placing the catching away at the same time Christ returns around the end of the tribulation.

 

I believe the synthesis is that you must define "tribulation" according to scripture very specifically and in detail because that detail is in the scripture. You must differentiate God and dragon's wrath to know what is appointed to us or not. You must see that the 70th week is not about the Western church, but about Israel and Judea and that the great tribulation starts on Israel in Judea with the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the man of sin declaring himself to be god. God has a promise to keep that He has already kept for those who believe, but Israel is still blinded and a remnant must be purified and tried through fire to come into the Promised Land during the reign of Christ so He will fulfill His promise to her.

 

So in this view, we will be saved from God's wrath and the worst of the tribulation outside of Judea. We will be here for part of the great tribulation, but a very short portion of it. There will be Christians who are killed both in Judea whose souls will be under the altar and resurrected and caught up with the rest of the faithful bride before the wrath of God. After Christ returns at the end of the dragon's time, He will resurrect those who were killed for His name during that time and they will reign with Him 1,000 years. All are part of the first resurrection:

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-26

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

 

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

We see that the first resurrection doesn’t mean there are more after it, it means that it's not the last resurrection. Christ is the firstfruits and then those that are His (bride) at His coming. Revelation shows after the reign of the man of sin is destroyed, those who died during that time are resurrected and it's explicitly called the first resurrection. That it's separated like this from the second death, which follows the great white throne judgment we can see there is a first and a last resurrection that come at specified times in stages.

 

AdHoc pointed out in The Ten Virgins thread, "the harvest in Leviticus 23 and look at the farmers harvesting, we notice that the harvest, although it is one harvest of one crop, is divided into THREE gatherings. They are (i) the firstfruits, (ii) the general harvest, and (iii) the gleanings. The firstfruits are those fruits which ripen before the others and are taken into the farmer's house for his enjoyment. The rest of the crop must have more time in the heat and dryness and are then harvested. The gleaning are left to profit the weak and underprivileged."

 

I believe scripture says the sixth seal and Christ's return in glory come in the midst of that period of time, just after it's cut short with Israel protected in the wilderness. The faithful bride will be ready before having to see Him coming, they will be watching. They will see the signs coming and with anticipation look up for her redemption before the wrath of God is poured out. She will meet Him in the clouds and go to the marriage of the Lamb in heaven and return following Him on white horses when He comes to take the kingdoms after the wrath is completed.

 

I don't think there needs to be division amongst the body of Christ on the topic of her blessed hope, although I know there will be. I doubt anyone has come up with their theories based on any kind of malice or purposeful error so I give the benefit of the doubt that like me we are all stumbling through understanding and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in His Word.

 

I believe the scriptures all point to aspects of each view being correct IF the terms are well defined logically from scripture and the nuances of the great tribulation are understood in light of God's plan for His waiting bride and His plan for His chosen people. Ultimately that will be redemption for all in eternity in the presence of God and of His Christ and our Redeemer Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

 

I do not claim to have all the answers or know the Word forward and back, far from it! I encourage all iron sharpening in love as we grow toward a greater understanding of God's plan and I know I could be wrong on aspects of this complicated topic. That's the beauty of forums like this, where we can grow together.

The abomination of desolation is placed at the end of the 1290 days.

The daily sacrifice being abolished is the beginning of the 1290 days.

The persecution (tribulation) of the saints in Israel begins after the daily sacrifice is abolished.They will be imprisoned and killed for the next 3 1/2 years and this tribulation ends when the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem.

That is the day of the Lord  when the Lord comes and  Jacob is delivered.(saved).

 

Mark 13

⁹ But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

¹⁰ And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

¹¹ But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

¹² Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

¹³ And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

¹⁴ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

 

 

Mark 13:9-13 takes place after the daily sacrifice is abolished. It is during this time that everyone in Israel receives the mark of the Israeli government and the christians in Israel reject it and are persecuted for warning the Jews the kingdom of God is at hand.

After this tribulation,the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem in mark 13:14 .This is the 6th seal as it is the abomination of desolation that causes the heavens to depart from the earth as a scroll being rolled together.This is the time of great tribulation and the resurrection of Israel.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Daniel 12:11

From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

 

United states gives Israel a host and daily sacrifice is abolished

 

Then 1290 days

 

United States armed forces place abomination in Jerusalem causing it to be desolate.

 

The abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem 3 days after the Muslim countries have overcome Israel and taken Jerusalem .The United States destroys all of the middle east and north Africa at this time.

 

Daniel 11:44

But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.
 

Abomination that causes desolation=Nuclear weapon.

[Triton57]

21 hours ago, Michael37 said:

There have been duels, with charts, no less. Here's my contribution.

 

Yours is much prettier, I have a similar layout for the seals, trumpets and bowls.