Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[The Light]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

He descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST...

This all happens at his coming...the resurrection happens at the last trumpet, on the last day...this is the harvest of the wheat and the tares, this is the end of the age...not sometime before the end of the age...

Job said the dead will not rise or awake from their sleep until the heavens be no more...the heavens are rolled back like a scroll at the sixth seal...this is showing there is no resurrection of anyone before the heavens depart, but to zero in on the exact time it will take place at the 7th trumpet...which of course is immediately after the tribulation...BUT IN NO CASE WHATSOEVER BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET SOUNDS!!!!

Sorry but the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Secondly, do you have a scripture that shows the heavens are no more at the 7th trumpet?????

[transmogrified]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:21 PM, The Light said:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The sun shall be darkened and the moon turned into blood BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord will come...the sun and moon are darkened at the sixth seal for sure, but that is what happens BEFORE the day of the Lord comes....the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him happens on the Day of the Lord...which is the last day...which is when the 7th trumpet sounds, which is when all are changed and resurrected and not before the Day of the Lord...

[The Light]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The sun shall be darkened and the moon turned into blood BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord will come...the sun and moon are darkened at the sixth seal for sure,

For sure.

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

but that is what happens BEFORE the day of the Lord comes....the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him happens on the Day of the Lord...which is the last day...which is when the 7th trumpet sounds, which is when all are changed and resurrected and not before the Day of the Lord...

This is where you need that logic to change your mind. Not only is the sun, moon darkened and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal, we also see the same thing when Jesus returns for the gathering. So your point about the 7th trumpet is incorrect as clearly seen in the following verses.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Additionally, in Isaiah 13 the same signs of the sun and moon when the day of the Lord comes just before wrath. This is also what happens a the 6th seal, Jesus comes just BEFORE WRATH.

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

It's probably time for you to realize that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God. When Jesus comes there is a harvest and there are dead raised. 

Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[RdJ]

On 8/31/2023 at 5:03 AM, transmogrified said:

The Issue here is scripture specifically states that when the Lord comes All his saints will be with him..Zech. 14: 5 '...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee,' also Paul says in 1 Thess. 3:13 that when he comes it will be with all his saints.

  First is the word 'church' allegedly ONLY refers to those who live and die from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture, then how would it be that both Zech. and Paul are saying all his SAINTS are coming with him, rather than saying when he comes, all the 'church' will be with him?

   And remember he is saying ALL his saints, so if the 'church' is sometimes referred to as saints, and then also those who die during the tribulation are called saints then both Zech. and Paul are not making these types of distinctions.

   Although Pre Trib states that Old Testament Saints and Tribulation saints will be resurrected, this does not also mean raptured, as resurrection and being caught up are two different things. This can be seen in the two prophets...they are first resurrected and then stand on their feet...after this has happened they then hear a voice calling them up to heaven...hence they were first resurrected then after that they were raptured.

    If the Old Testament Saints and the Tribulation are then only resurrected and yet not raptured that means they would not be among the saints who descend from heaven...hence Jesus would not be returning with ALL his saints, but only with PART of his saints.

    It is stated that 1 Thess. 4 is when Christ comes FOR his church, meaning the dead and the living are caught up to heaven...the dead did not get up there just because they were just resurrected...the only way they got up was that they were first resurrected and then caught up. To sum it up, they can't COME DOWN with Jesus if they weren't first UP THERE and they couldn't get UP THERE if they had not been caught up...so if the trib saints and old testament saints are just resurrected but not caught up, that means they would not be UP there, hence they could not COME DOWN here when Jesus comes. Is there one rapture for the 'church' to get up there, and then another one for the trib saints to get up there, or how did they get up there?

They get up there before the rapture. What's called the first resurrection is only the ones killed in the trib, so the rest must have been raised already.

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Not only is the sun, moon darkened and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal, we also see the same thing when Jesus returns for the gathering. 

Yes immediately after the tribulation the sun  is darkened- It’s the sixth seal but all this happens BEFORE THAT GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COMES.. 

Paul said THAT DAY ( of both the coming of the Lord - Second Coming- AND our gathering together unto him (the Rapture) will not come except the falling away and the man of sin be revealed..

The point is THAT DAY (singular day) is when both the coming of the Lord and the rapture occurs.. The rapture and second coming happens ON THE DAY OF THE LORD.. And the sun and moon are darkened BEFORE THAT DAY COMES… 

THE SUN AND MOLN BEING DARKENED BEFORE THAT DAY COMES MEANS THESE EVENTS MUST TAKE  PLACE BEFORE THAT DAY COMES .. SO IF IT HAS TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE THAT DAY COMES IT DOES NOT MEAN THE EVENTS THAT HAPPEN BEFORE THE RAPTURE AND SECOND COMING ARE IN FACT THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING..HE COMES AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY AND NOT BEFORE

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, Renskedejonge said:

They get up there before the rapture. What's called the first resurrection is only the ones killed in the trib, so the rest must have been raised already.

Resurrection does not mean ascension into heaven...the two witnesses were killed and lay in the street for 3.5 days...they were RESURRECTED, and stood upon their feet...guess what? Resurrection did not mean they were also ascended up into heaven...it was not till they heard the voice saying 'come up hither, that they ascended up to heaven in a cloud... This is called the rapture and its detailed out in a similar description in 1 Thess. 4...all are changed...meaning all, both dead and living saints receive their glorified body...that is the CHANGE into immortality...it does not also mean ASCENDED up to heaven...so all are changed, but then the DEAD IN CHRIST rise first...this does not mean the were resurrected FIRST, for the living are not dead, therefore they are not resurrected at all...so it means the dead in Christ RISE FIRST UP INTO HEAVEN...those who are alive and remain are not caught up into heaven AT THE SAME TIME THE DEAD RISE UP...that is what is meant by the dead in Christ will rise first...AFTER they have ascended up into heaven, they then COME BACK with Jesus with all those who sleep in Jesus, or in other words, with all the saints who have been resurrected from all time, from Adam until the second coming, and then THE LIVING rise up to meet the Lord and those who sleep in Jesus in the air and then all the saints descend downward to the earth to live and reign with Christ for the 1000 years...

SO THEY 'DON'T GET UP THERE BEFORE THE RAPTURE...' the two witnesses had died and yet their bodies were still lying in the street for 3.5 days...so their BODY was not 'UP THERE' until they ascended up to heaven in a cloud...

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What's called the first resurrection is only the ones killed in the trib,

The scripture showing those killed by the beast lived and reigned with Christ is absolutely true, however they are not the only ones who live and reign with Christ for the 1000 years, nor were they the only ones who were resurrected as Paul says 'I show you a mystery....we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed...this does not mean just the tribulation saints get changed...it does not just mean the 'church age' saints get changed...(which is a misnomer...as the 'church age' is an artificial man made distinction made to apply only to those who lived and died from Pentecost to before the tribulation...which is false as the church just means the congregation of the Lord, which has been from Adam and forward...)

It does not mean just the OT saints gets changed...it means ALL THE SAINTS from all time are changed at the last and seventh trumpet...not before and not after...

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so the rest must have been raised already.

You don't go by assumptions...the rest must have been raised already is absolutely false...ALL are changed at one time, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye..at the last trump..not some here, some at another time...NO NO NO!!!

ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP which does not happen until AFTER the tribulation when Jesus comes...and NOT BEFORE!!!

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

For sure.

This is where you need that logic to change your mind. Not only is the sun, moon darkened and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal, we also see the same thing when Jesus returns for the gathering. So your point about the 7th trumpet is incorrect as clearly seen in the following verses.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Additionally, in Isaiah 13 the same signs of the sun and moon when the day of the Lord comes just before wrath. This is also what happens a the 6th seal, Jesus comes just BEFORE WRATH.

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

It's probably time for you to realize that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God. When Jesus comes there is a harvest and there are dead raised. 

Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

All of the above scriptures are absolutely true and I believe every one of them.

These scriptures are also true and I believe every one of these:
 

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Acts 2:20

"The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come."

Joel 2:31

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come:"

 

It follows that if these events must take place BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COME, then the day that these events take place IS NOT THE SAME DAY AS THE DAY OF THE LORD...

Isaiah is true...Matthew is true...Daniel is true...Acts 2:20 is true...Joel 2:31 is true...

Acts 2:20 does not disanull anything about what will happen at the sixth seal...Joel 2:31 does not disanull anything about what will happen at the sixth seal...

THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS IS AN EVENT...THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS AN EVENT...

THE SUN TURNING TO DARKNESS IS AN EVENT, BUT THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS IS NOT THE RAPTURE...IT IS THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS...

 

THE MOON TURNING TO BLOOD IS AN EVENT, BUT THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS NOT THE SECOND COMING...THE SECOND COMING IS THE SECOND COMING...THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD...THEY ARE NOT THE SAME EVENT...THE SUN BEING DARKENED AND THE MOON TURNED INTO BLOOD HAPPENS BEFORE THE SECOND COMING / RAPTURE...THE EVENT THAT HAPPENS BEFORE THE OTHER EVENT IS NOT THE SAME EVENT...AND ALSO DOES NOT HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY

Edited October 22, 2023 by transmogrified

[The Light]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Yes immediately after the tribulation the sun  is darkened- It’s the sixth seal but all this happens BEFORE THAT GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COMES.. 

Exactly. Jesus comes at the 6th seal and then the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins when the first trumpet sounds.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Paul said THAT DAY ( of both the coming of the Lord - Second Coming- AND our gathering together unto him (the Rapture) will not come except the falling away and the man of sin be revealed..

Exactly. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs after the man of sin is revealed.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth as past of Israel can see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

The point is THAT DAY (singular day) is when both the coming of the Lord and the rapture occurs..

Correct. At the sixth seal.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

 

The rapture and second coming happens ON THE DAY OF THE LORD.. And the sun and moon are darkened BEFORE THAT DAY COMES… 

Correct. At the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

THE SUN AND MOLN BEING DARKENED BEFORE THAT DAY COMES MEANS THESE EVENTS MUST TAKE  PLACE BEFORE THAT DAY COMES .. SO IF IT HAS TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE THAT DAY COMES IT DOES NOT MEAN THE EVENTS THAT HAPPEN BEFORE THE RAPTURE AND SECOND COMING ARE IN FACT THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING.

Correct. Jesus comes at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs BEFORE the wrath of God. When the 7th seal is opened wrath can begin.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

 

.HE COMES AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY AND NOT BEFORE

Incorrect. Jesus comes for His Church before the seals are opened. Jesus then returns for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal, as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We can see that in Matthew 24

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal, BEFORE the day of the Lord, just as the Word says. 

Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. I can't figure out why you want to deny the obvious at it is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars........Jesus returns for the gathering at the 6th seal BEFORE the day of the Lord.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

All of the above scriptures are absolutely true and I believe every one of them.

These scriptures are also true and I believe every one of these:
 

It follows that if these events must take place BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COME, then the day that these events take place IS NOT THE SAME DAY AS THE DAY OF THE LORD...

Isaiah is true...Matthew is true...Daniel is true...Acts 2:20 is true...Joel 2:31 is true...

Acts 2:20 does not disanull anything about what will happen at the sixth seal...Joel 2:31 does not disanull anything about what will happen at the sixth seal...

THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS IS AN EVENT...THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS AN EVENT...

THE SUN TURNING TO DARKNESS IS AN EVENT, BUT THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS IS NOT THE RAPTURE...IT IS THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS...

Exactly. The sun turning into darkness is not the rapture. However, the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal is "A" rapture. The second rapture........the gathering from heaven and earth.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

 

THE MOON TURNING TO BLOOD IS AN EVENT, BUT THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS NOT THE SECOND COMING...THE SECOND COMING IS THE SECOND COMING...THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD...THEY ARE NOT THE SAME EVENT...THE SUN BEING DARKENED AND THE MOON TURNED INTO BLOOD HAPPENS BEFORE THE SECOND COMING / RAPTURE...THE EVENT THAT HAPPENS BEFORE THE OTHER EVENT IS NOT THE SAME EVENT...AND ALSO DOES NOT HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY

Exactly. The sun and moon turn into darkness BEFORE the day of the Lord. Jesus comes at the 6th seal.........it is MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. That is when the gathering occurs. After the gathering, the seventh seal is opened and wrath will begin when the 1st trumpet is sounded.

This is simple logic. I am not sure why are denying what is simple and obvious.

[transmogrified]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:17 AM, Diaste said:

A myriad is a thing, an indefinitely large group, not a number. It's sometimes used to represent a number in a strict sense but in abstract it's a large group, a thing. 

Almost every dictionary you will look at states that the word myriad is either a noun or an adjective depending on how it is used in a phrase...IT DOES NOT SAY MYRIAD IS EXCLUSIVELY A NOUN...ABSOLUTELY FALSE...

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Myriad is a noun and an adjective. As a noun, it means either 10,000 precisely or a great number generally. As an adjective, it means great in number, countless, or innumerable.

Dictionary.com
 

Quote

 

noun

a very great or indefinitely great number of persons or things.

ten thousand.

adjective

of an indefinitely great number; innumerable: the myriad stars of a summer night.

having innumerable phases, aspects, variations, etc.:

 

Vocabulary.com
 

Quote

 

noun

a large indefinite number

“he faced a myriad of details”

see more

noun

the cardinal number that is the product of ten and one thousand

synonyms: 10000, ten thousand

see more

adjective

too numerous to be counted

 

Your quote:

On 10/20/2023 at 2:17 AM, Diaste said:

A myriad is a thing, an indefinitely large group, not a number. It's sometimes used to represent a number in a strict sense but in abstract it's a large group, a thing. 

The lexicon and concordance show the part of speech for murias is a noun. This group isn't being counted, but is represented as uncountable. "Ten thousands" is not a definite number. 'ten thousand' would be. 'Ten thousands' is abstract hence, murias is a noun.

You state that murios is a noun BECAUSE it is not a definite number and is uncountable...the dictionary defines it in EXACTLY the opposite way...that it is an adjective BECAUSE it is uncountable.

Also the dictionary states that IF the number was a definite number it would be a noun...also EXACTLY the opposite of what you state...

On 10/20/2023 at 2:17 AM, Diaste said:

It's not the elect saints and cannot be. The elect saints are not even resurrected until Jesus arrives. 

Jesus had not yet arrived on the earth when the two witnesses were resurrected. You say they aren't even resurrected until Jesus arrives...in looking at the two witnesses the first thing that happened to them was that they were resurrected after laying in the street for 3.5 days...Jesus did not come down to the earth and then they were resurrected...they were laying in the street and what happened? They arose and stood on their feet...what happened then? The voice came from heaven saying 'come up hither...' Then what happened? They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY THE DEAD RISING FIRST...THEY VISIBLY ROSE UP INTO HEAVEN...JESUS WAS NOT ON THE EARTH WHEN THEY ROSE...THEIR ENEMIES BEHELD THEM GOING UP...ARE THEY GOING UP WHEN JESUS HAS ALREADY SET FOOT ON THE MT. OF OLIVES?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

Flesh out the scripture in 1 Thess. 4 even according to what you are saying..you say there is no resurrection until Jesus ARRIVES. If by arrival you mean he has set foot on the Mt. of Olives it will not work, or if by arrival you mean he comes down to the air but not on the earth it will still not work...

For example, if you believe Jesus comes to the air and then the resurrection takes place what do you have? You have the dead in Christ being resurrected and then they ASCEND UP FIRST...SO LISTEN TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...

If you believe the dead in Christ will truly rise up into the air then what have you got? You have the resurrected saints up in the air with Jesus and then the living go up to meet them...so then what happens? Are all these saints just going to stay up in the air and Jesus comes on down with just the angels to the earth...?

The only way all these saints that are up there in the air can  come down to the earth is that they must COME BACK WITH JESUS...THE VERY THING YOU REFUSE TO ADMIT. What happens to them? At some point all these saints that are up there have to come down to the earth...You admit Jesus is in the air and the saints are caught up to meet him, yet you deny that all these saints will come back with Jesus and it is impossible because they are not resurrected until he arrives. If you think this just means they are resurrected first, then why would the living be caught up to meet them IN THE AIR, if they are just resurrected and still on the ground? No...they are up in the air and the living are caught up to meet them.

No, it absolutely means they rise up into the air and then the living come back with them...but who are these that we are talking about? Are they angels? No of course not...they are saints of the most high God and in order for them to get down to the earth from being in the air, they ALL HAVE TO COME DOWN WITH JESUS DO THEY NOT?

And if by 'arrival to the earth' you mean he actually sets foot on the Mt. of Olives and then the dead are resurrected what do you have? The same impossible situation...i.e. if Jesus is over there at the Mt. of Olives and we are CAUGHT UP to meet him IN THE AIR, WHEN HE IS NOT IN THE AIR, BUT OVER ON THE MT. OF OLIVES, IT AGAIN MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

The saints would not be caught up into the air and the clouds, but rather they would be CAUGHT UP to meet Jesus ON THE MT. OF OLIVES...which is ridiculous for when he sets foot on the mt. of Olives the saints have already CAME WITH HIM, not that they have been TRANSPORTED OVER TO HIM...