Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[transmogrified]

The Issue here is scripture specifically states that when the Lord comes All his saints will be with him..Zech. 14: 5 '...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee,' also Paul says in 1 Thess. 3:13 that when he comes it will be with all his saints.

  First is the word 'church' allegedly ONLY refers to those who live and die from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture, then how would it be that both Zech. and Paul are saying all his SAINTS are coming with him, rather than saying when he comes, all the 'church' will be with him?

   And remember he is saying ALL his saints, so if the 'church' is sometimes referred to as saints, and then also those who die during the tribulation are called saints then both Zech. and Paul are not making these types of distinctions.

   Although Pre Trib states that Old Testament Saints and Tribulation saints will be resurrected, this does not also mean raptured, as resurrection and being caught up are two different things. This can be seen in the two prophets...they are first resurrected and then stand on their feet...after this has happened they then hear a voice calling them up to heaven...hence they were first resurrected then after that they were raptured.

    If the Old Testament Saints and the Tribulation are then only resurrected and yet not raptured that means they would not be among the saints who descend from heaven...hence Jesus would not be returning with ALL his saints, but only with PART of his saints.

    It is stated that 1 Thess. 4 is when Christ comes FOR his church, meaning the dead and the living are caught up to heaven...the dead did not get up there just because they were just resurrected...the only way they got up was that they were first resurrected and then caught up. To sum it up, they can't COME DOWN with Jesus if they weren't first UP THERE and they couldn't get UP THERE if they had not been caught up...so if the trib saints and old testament saints are just resurrected but not caught up, that means they would not be UP there, hence they could not COME DOWN here when Jesus comes. Is there one rapture for the 'church' to get up there, and then another one for the trib saints to get up there, or how did they get up there?

[R. Hartono]

Bible says the OT saints and the dead in Christ will be raised first and taken to the cloud, then you the living Christians Will follow them.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians 4%3A16-17&version=KJV 

Theres no rapture at the 2nd coming as the saints already return from heaven with Jesus.

Edited September 1, 2023 by R. Hartono

[transmogrified]

So how do the tribulation saints come down with Jesus from heaven if they were never raptured up to heaven?

[AdHoc]

On 8/31/2023 at 5:03 AM, transmogrified said:

The Issue here is scripture specifically states that when the Lord comes All his saints will be with him..Zech. 14: 5 '...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee,' also Paul says in 1 Thess. 3:13 that when he comes it will be with all his saints.

  First is the word 'church' allegedly ONLY refers to those who live and die from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture, then how would it be that both Zech. and Paul are saying all his SAINTS are coming with him, rather than saying when he comes, all the 'church' will be with him?

   And remember he is saying ALL his saints, so if the 'church' is sometimes referred to as saints, and then also those who die during the tribulation are called saints then both Zech. and Paul are not making these types of distinctions.

   Although Pre Trib states that Old Testament Saints and Tribulation saints will be resurrected, this does not also mean raptured, as resurrection and being caught up are two different things. This can be seen in the two prophets...they are first resurrected and then stand on their feet...after this has happened they then hear a voice calling them up to heaven...hence they were first resurrected then after that they were raptured.

    If the Old Testament Saints and the Tribulation are then only resurrected and yet not raptured that means they would not be among the saints who descend from heaven...hence Jesus would not be returning with ALL his saints, but only with PART of his saints.

    It is stated that 1 Thess. 4 is when Christ comes FOR his church, meaning the dead and the living are caught up to heaven...the dead did not get up there just because they were just resurrected...the only way they got up was that they were first resurrected and then caught up. To sum it up, they can't COME DOWN with Jesus if they weren't first UP THERE and they couldn't get UP THERE if they had not been caught up...so if the trib saints and old testament saints are just resurrected but not caught up, that means they would not be UP there, hence they could not COME DOWN here when Jesus comes. Is there one rapture for the 'church' to get up there, and then another one for the trib saints to get up there, or how did they get up there?

 

6 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Bible says the OT saints and the dead in Christ will be raised first and taken to the cloud, then you the living Christians Will follow them.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians 4%3A16-17&version=KJV 

Theres no rapture at the 2nd coming as the saints already return from heaven with Jesus.

The confusion that causes all the discussions on resurrection and rapture is caused by one thing - the belief that dead men go to heaven. This doctrine, taught in the dark ages when Rome locked away the Bible and forbade the laity to read and study it, is the most damaging of "leaven" that has leavened our doctrine. Matthew 13 and 1st Corinthians 5 clearly state that in the end, if a "little" leaven is introduced, it leavens the whole lump. Let's see what gets lost if dead men go to heaven:
1. Because there is not a single verse that plainly states that dead men go to heaven, other verses that do not say so are twisted to mean something else. The result? If God's Word is made to mean something else once, there is no fence to stop men doing it all the time. Thus, a verse like Ephesians 4:8 which actually says that "Captivity is led captive" is made to mean "Dead men are led into freedom of heaven". And this in the face of Acts 2 which clearly says that ten days after He ascended, David's BODY was still dead and in the tomb in Jerusalem (v.29), and his SOUL still in Hades (v.31) and that he had not yet ascended to heaven (v.34).

2. There is no resurrection. If a man, at death RISES to heaven, when and why should he RISE again? But the Bible has, as the hope of all men, the RESURRECTION. And a whole Chapter - 1st Corinthians 15 - is dedicated to the RISING of the dead.

3. The rapture is perverted. 1st Thessalonians 14 says that the sequence is (i) Christ descending, (ii) a shout and a trumpet, (iii) the dead RISING, (iv) the dead, having RISEN, meet the living. (v) These (the living) are on the surface of the earth, and so are the newly RISEN dead because (vi) "TOGETHER" they are caught away. But Christian doctrine must refuse one or more facts because if the dead are in heaven then they cannot RISE to meet the living, or, they must DESCEND to meet the living and then they have been with the Lord, so how can they MEET the One who they were just seconds before.

4. God's holiness is called into question. Dead men are unclean (Num.9:10) and dead men are naked (2nd Cor.5:1-5). Both are abhorrent to God. How does a naked and unclean proceed to God's Throne (heaven)?

5. Christians are resurrected "when Christ comes" (1st Cor.15:23). But the doctrine of dead men in heaven refuses this. It teaches that we go to Him without our bodies.

6. If some then reverse this and say that we receive a spirit body, they overturn scripture TWICE; (i) We are to receive a Body "like Christ's" (Rom.6:4, 1st Jn.3:2). But our Lord pointedly said that His resurrection body was NOT spirit (Lk.24:39). The meaning of "spiritual" is either (a) it is spirit in substance, or (b) it is built by the Holy Spirit. According to 2nd Corinthians 5:1-5 our resurrection body is spiritual because it is not made by the womb but by the Spirit. That makes 1st Corinthians 15:44 clear. (ii) In every single case of resurrection recorded in the Bible the dead received that Body that was buried. 1st Corinthians 15 confirms this; "IT (the body) is planted. "IT (that same body) is raised ... The Body of man is made from the elements of the earth. It is formed in the womb. At resurrection, these SAME ELEMENTS are used by the Holy Spirit.

If however, we take the Bible's clear and plain statements, all these twists and problems disappear.

The dead are in Hades (like David in Acts 2) - we RISE at resurrection (for Hades is in the "heart of the earth")
The body died and returned to the elements. The Holy Spirit makes it new. The Adamic nature is gone
The soul is with Jesus in Hades (Ps.139:8) just as the soul of the thief was
The dead RISE, just as Christ did, to meet the living on the surface of earth.
The living are changed at that instant (1st Cor.15:50-56)
"TOGETHER" they are "caught away" to meet Jesus Who is DESCENDING (1st Thess.4:16)
They meet in the clouds. Because our Lord is traveling, His seat of authority is a "Bema", not a THRONOS
Once all have been judged, Jesus, WITH the saints, will DESCEND to Mount Olives.

In the above sequence, not one word or verse needed to explained away. Nothing illogical like the dead descending to get their new bodies is needed. It is thus"TOGETHER" the risen and the living can be caught away, and there is no logistical gymnastics to get them all returning together with Christ.

[AdHoc]

21 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

So how do the tribulation saints come down with Jesus from heaven if they were never raptured up to heaven?

I am aware that this concept is widely held - "Tribulation saints". But which scriptures show this? I understand the following:

- The "WORTHY" are raptured before the great Tribulation (Lk.21:35-36, Rev.3:10)
- The Dragon makes war with those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and causes them to flee (Rev.12:13-14, 17)
- The Beast makes war with the saints and "OVERCOMES THEM" (Rev.13:7)
- The remainder of God's people are involved in Babylon (Rev.18:4)

So, with Christians fled to a wilderness, being overcome by the Beast and collaborating with Babylon, WHO PREACHES THE GOSPEL DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (Rom.10:14)

Faith comes from hearing ... and nobody preaches ...

 

[transmogrified]

59 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The confusion that causes all the discussions on resurrection and rapture is caused by one thing - the belief that dead men go to heaven.

The sequence of events is the two prophets...it says they were killed and laid dead in the street for 3.5 days.. Those who say the body rises up to meet their spirit at the resurrection is now how it is portrayed. It says 'and the spirit of life from God entered them and they rose upon their feet...' So they are now still on the earth...but when they were resurrected they were given immortal bodies and stood upon their feet...the body was not caught up at that point to reunite with their spirit as sometimes said...but when they heard the voice saying 'come up hither' then they ascended up to heaven in a cloud...this is the sequence and distinction of being resurrected and then ascending up or being caught up later...two distinct events...one is resurrection and one is ascension. At this point Rev. 19 :1 says he 'heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying 'Alleluia....' So the two prophets are shown ascending up to heaven and then much people were heard in heaven, so people do go up to heaven..this is from whence he gathers his elect...from one end of heaven to the other...these are the dead elect who have been resurrected...and then he gathers his elect from the ends of the earth, which would be the living elect.

 

      The question I had was pre trib does not account for the OT saints and Trib saints to be raptured, they are only said to be resurrected...but the only way Jesus can come down from heaven and all his saints to be coming with him, is that they have to be there first...the point was that these positions, whether preterism, pre trib, or mid trib can not have all the saints return with him, because they always have their  version of the 2nd coming at some point before the true second coming after the tribulation, so it would be impossible to have all the saints return with him without having another rapture for them to get up there.

[AdHoc]

29 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The sequence of events is the two prophets...it says they were killed and laid dead in the street for 3.5 days.. Those who say the body rises up to meet their spirit at the resurrection is now how it is portrayed. It says 'and the spirit of life from God entered them and they rose upon their feet...' So they are now still on the earth...but when they were resurrected they were given immortal bodies and stood upon their feet...the body was not caught up at that point to reunite with their spirit as sometimes said...but when they heard the voice saying 'come up hither' then they ascended up to heaven in a cloud...this is the sequence and distinction of being resurrected and then ascending up or being caught up later...two distinct events...one is resurrection and one is ascension. At this point Rev. 19 :1 says he 'heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying 'Alleluia....' So the two prophets are shown ascending up to heaven and then much people were heard in heaven, so people do go up to heaven..this is from whence he gathers his elect...from one end of heaven to the other...these are the dead elect who have been resurrected...and then he gathers his elect from the ends of the earth, which would be the living elect.

 

      The question I had was pre trib does not account for the OT saints and Trib saints to be raptured, they are only said to be resurrected...but the only way Jesus can come down from heaven and all his saints to be coming with him, is that they have to be there first...the point was that these positions, whether preterism, pre trib, or mid trib can not have all the saints return with him, because they always have their  version of the 2nd coming at some point before the true second coming after the tribulation, so it would be impossible to have all the saints return with him without having another rapture for them to get up there.

Thank you for your reply. I've read it through twice and am sorry to say that I cannot quite find any objection to what you quoted of me. I've obviously missed something. Could you perhaps show some scriptures that address "Trib-saints". We agrre that resurrection and rapture are two separate things. Our Lord Jesus was RAISED, then had a discussion wit Mary abut going to the Father. That night the disciples were allowed to touch Him. He'd obviously been to the Father - as He said He would. Then, 40 days later, He again went to the Father.

[transmogrified]

49 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The confusion that causes all the discussions on resurrection and rapture is caused by one thing - the belief that dead men go to heaven.

From the above quotation it seemed you disagreed that dead men go to heaven. The two prophets died and were resurrected and went to heaven. As far as trib saints, I am only meaning saints who would be living during the time of great tribulation.

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (Rom.10:14)

Faith comes from hearing ... and nobody preaches ..

Rev 14:6 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Still Alive]

When I became a Christian in 1981, I started out pre-trib. then, after studying the issue, I became "mid-trib", also known as "post tribulation, pre-wrath of God".

I am now "pan-trib". i.e. it all pans out in the end. I'm more focused on the core teachings of Jesus now - My relationship with my creator and my relationship with my fellow man. The rest is just so much noise that either enhances or distracts from those two. 

It really got amplified when I spent 11 hours on an operating table 5 months ago undergoing open heart surgery. I'm a couple of months away from 70.

Fortunately it was brought on by a birth defect and not lifestyle/diet. IOW, I'm healthy as an ox now, but my world view has changed in some areas and strengthened in all of them. I'm a pretty strong follower of the late Dr. Michael Heiser and one of the things I gleaned from him is that we had better be careful basing "non-critical" doctrine on our flawed English translations of the bible. Don't stand strongly behind positions supported by questionable scripture. 

I'm not even convinced there really is a "rapture" any more, though I hope that if there is, it is "pre-trib". Who wouldn't want to avoid all the mayhem. But then, what Characters in all of our bible stories avoided all the mayhem? How did the apostles die? 

Then again, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and I consider all hardship to be a teaching moment. I basically see this life as a "boot camp". Like a life simulation video game, I know I'm not getting out of it alive, so I'm playing the "game" the Lord put me here to play. 

My focus now is enhancing my relationship with my Creator and His Son. And the more I rely on him and trust him, the more joy and UNDERSTANDING I receive. I think that when we die we're all gonna have a great conversation over a cup of coffee in Heaven's cafeteria about all the stuff we were so dead wrong about. But one thing I hope we got right is the personality of our Creator and the hope he offers through his son's death and resurrection.

BTW, start with Psalm 82:1, in the original language.

 

BTW number two: Two weeks after the surgery on discharge day:

Edited September 1, 2023 by Still Alive