The 7th Trump is the Last Trump

[Diaste]

On 9/18/2023 at 3:21 PM, WilliamL said:

The case for the 7th trump of Revelation 11 as a trump connected to the last trump has not yet been made either. Just speculation. In the three End Time trumpets mentioned in the NT -- Matt. 24, 1 Cor. 15, and 1 Thes 4 -- none of them provide even a hint that this trumpet is part of a series of trumpets.

Sure has. It's the herald of wrath. It's the herald at near the same time as the 6th seal. This is fact as wrath begins but once; and the verb form for both the 6th seal and the 7th trump, the onset of wrath, shows wrath as existing, not continuing. 

As I have heard argued in the past the verb form cannot be 'existing and continuing' as then wrath would already be continuing before the 6th seal beginning of wrath.

This means wrath begins at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump. More precisely, the 6th seal is the dread of the nations at impending wrath, the inescapable arrival of destiny, the 7th trump the call to glory before the physical outpouring of wrath on the rebellion in fierce, unrelenting anger.

That, and the one and only trump associated with the end of the age, the arrival of Jesus, the gathering, and the meting of wrath is the 7th trump of Revelation, which is the same as the last trump.

On 9/18/2023 at 3:21 PM, WilliamL said:

However, as I have shown in two different blogs, the types and shadows of the OT manifested during the times of Moses and David clearly portray End Time events in an order that puts the rapture at the points comparable to the 6th seal.

Yes. I think that's quite clear. I'm sure I have agreed with this previously.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

But of course I was not talking about Rev 20 at the end of the MK- I am talking about the false idea that Canaan RIGHT NOW NOT AT THE END OF THE MK IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.. You keep switching time frames which is WRONG.. What is now is NOT what will be then.. When I said you can fly into Jerusalem you can do that RIGHT NOW… And as you cross the border you are NOT entering into the kingdom of heaven..

  Jerusalem which IS NOW - NOT AT THE END OF THE MK - IS IN BONDAGE WITH HER CHILDREN..

When it says the children of the kingdom shall be cast out he does NOT mean cast out of a physical location such as the geographical borders of the promised land..

When Jesus comes THE LIVING.. who will see Jesus coming in the clouds will convert and as the scripture I gave you show, all nations submit to Christ and his authority.. 

This is the great multitude which no man could number wash their robes out of EVERY NATION KINDRED AND TONGUE… Meaning the verse stating he will gather out of his kingdom all that do iniquity and cast them into the fire..does not pertain TO THE LIVING AFTER HE COMES AND ALL THE NATIONS ARE CONVERTED..

He rebuked them and rules them with a rod of iron.. he did not say he rebuked them and kills them..

You have to distinguish between the judgment of the living and the judgment of the dead….

   It is the WICKED DEAD who are resurrected and cast into the fire..

The perception of what is going on is dramatically twisted by thinking the kingdom of heaven is a piece of property defined as the promised land.

 The wheat and tares illustrates this as well .. The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man who sowed good seed IN HIS FIELD..What is the field? Is it the land of Canaan? Of course not..

   was the good seed only sowed in the land of Canaan? Of course not- it began in Jerusalem , Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the world..

  So the field is the WORLD (not just Canaan) and it his HIS FIELD, meaning The whole world is his..

   So when he is saying he will gather that offends out of his kingdom he is saying they will be gathered out of the whole world..

And when he is saying they are cast into the fire he is not talking about all the nations who repent when he comes. God is not casting all the nations who just repented into the fire..ABSOLUTELY NOT!!  The casting into the fire is the judgment of the wicked dead , from all over the world, not just from Canaan, who are now in the goat category and will be cast into the fire at the same time the sheep will enter into their inheritance .

   First,  the physical promised land is NOT HEAVEN.
Those who live there are not living in heaven.. 
So when he says the children of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness, it is apparent he is talking about the resurrection of unbelieving Israel as they stand before God on the day of judgment..NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE  WHO ARE ALIVE AND REPENT WHEN JESUS COMES

And when he says they will be cast out into outer darkness they are not being cast out of Canaan.. These are the wicked dead of Israel who have been scattered all over the earth since 70 AD.. God is not going to just resurrect the wicked unbelieving Israelites who lived in CanaanNO NO NO

ALL THAT ARE IN GRAVES WILL HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH..

Not just people whose graves was in Canaan..

 There are not two resurrections, one for people in Canaan and one  for everybody else.. THAT IS A FABLE AND ABSOLUTELY FALSE..

So when you read the children of the kingdom shall be cast out - It is unbelieving Israel standing before the Lord on the day of judgement and they are cast out of his presence like it says of the goats- DEPART FROM ME YE CURSED INTO EVERLASTING FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS..

You have both elements in that phrase.. The goats are cast out of his presence and they are cast into the fire.. Has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING CAST OUT OF CANAAN… Rather they are cast away from the Lord who is before them in judgement..

This is the day of judgment when Jesus comes .. These are not events that happen at the end of the MK… 

The day of judgement is pre MK and he is not asking them- Did you live in Canaan? He is not just addressing people who lived in Canaan. He has separated the WHOLE EARTH into two groups.. SHEEP AND GOATS.. Not Canaanite’s and everyone else.. 

 

 

 

No ,I'm not switching anything.This all started when I quoted Christ saying that everyone in his kingdom who does iniquity would be cast out of his kingdom.

 

Mathew 13:41

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

 

Now I said this is talking about his kingdom that was promised to him which lay between the Euphrates river and the Nile river.You said it's about the entire world Invluding Magog ,Persia,and Ethiopia,which nations surround the saints living in Canaan at the end of the millinium.

I believe the saints inherit Canaan and that is where revelation says they are.That is the everlasting kingdom.You say the entire world is the he everlasting kingdom even though Magog is governed by Gog.

Scripture shows Canaan is given to the saints for an everlasting possession and that is the kingdom.of God.

Ezekiel 37

²¹ And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

²² And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

²³ Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

²⁴ And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

 

²⁵ And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

²⁶ Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

²⁷ My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

²⁸ And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

 

 

While you look for the king of Israel to come to new York city,I think I will just take a trip east into the kingdom of heaven to see the king.Away from the heathen.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You said it's about the entire world Invluding Magog ,Persia,and Ethiopia,which nations surround the saints living in Canaan at the end of the millinium.

I am not talking about the world at the end of the MK- I am talking about the world right now and the day of judgment which happens on the last day of this age.. not anything about Gog and Magog

i am talking about the day of judgement and the resurrection of ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES.. which is 1000 years before Gog - I am not talking about Gog or Canaan at the end of the MK..

so when I talk about unbelieving Israel being cast out from before his presence as he said to the goats depart from me… I am not talking about Gog- the day of judgment is not Gog… Gog is not when Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead.. Gog has nothing to with the resurrection of the good and bad at the second coming…  Gog is not the second coming Gog is 1000 years after the second coming 

At the second coming ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES WILL HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH

This is NOT JUST PEOPLE LIVING IN CANAAN - There are graves all over the world -ALL OF THEM WILL BE EMPTIED AT THE SECOND COMING

People living in Canaan will be resurrected at the same time everyone else will He doesn’t put the Cannaites on one side and the rest of the world on the otherNO NO NO - They are divided into two groups- Sheep  and goats 

He gathers both the good and the bad He gathers the wheat into his barn- he gathers the tares to be burned- 

He gathers the sheep and the goatsALL MANKIND IS BEFORE HIM AT THE SECOND COMING- THIS IS NOT GOG THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOG - THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAGOG AT THE END OF THE MK

The canaanites  will be there.. Unbelieving Israel will be there… believing Israel will be there.believing Gentiles will be there - unbelieving Gentiles  will be there..

God is not acknowledging what Israel claims to be or where they came from..

the promised land RIGHT NOW is not the kingdom of Heaven - The kingdom of God was taken from them 2000 some years ago- Because it was taken from them they do not now have it.. because it was taken from there house is now DESOLATE..

But even when he says your house is desolate you still claim the kingdom of God is within the borders of Cannan.. This is absolutely false God is not  gathering people out of Canaan and leaving the rest of the world alone NO  - There is one day when all the dead rise and stand before God.. not a day for Canaanites and another day for the rest of the world- Graves do not exist just in Canaan.. graves of good and bad people are all over the world..

This is the resurrection I am talking about - NOT GOG- NOT MAGOG - NOT HOW THINGS WILL BE AT THE END OF THE MK- But what will happen AT THE ONE AND ONLY SECONF COMING. NOTHING TO DO WITH GOG , Ethiopia, Persia, The camp of the saints , fire coming down…..NO NO NO THIS IS THE WRONG TIME FRAME THAT IS NOT THE SECOND COMING - God will gather all things that offend AT THE SECOND COMING- The tares will be burned at the second coming - The sheep and goats are at the second coming 

I can’t talk to you about the second coming while you think I am talking about Gog .. Gog is not the second coming —- FOCUS ON THE SECOND COMING - THIS IS WHEN THE WHEAT AND TARES ARE SEPARATED NOT GOG

This is when the children of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness NOTHING TO DO WITH GOG..

The sheep and  goats are where the children of the kingdom are cast out- These are part of the goats Not  GOG NOT MAGOG

 

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I believe the saints inherit Canaan and that is where revelation says they are

Revelations says that’s where tgey are AT THE END OF THE MK- NOT NOW!!!

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

I am not talking about the world at the end of the MK- I am talking about the world right now and the day of judgment which happens on the last day of this age.. not anything about Gog and Magog

i am talking about the day of judgement and the resurrection of ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES.. which is 1000 years before Gog - I am not talking about Gog or Canaan at the end of the MK..

so when I talk about unbelieving Israel being cast out from before his presence as he said to the goats depart from me… I am not talking about Gog- the day of judgment is not Gog… Gog is not when Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead.. Gog has nothing to with the resurrection of the good and bad at the second coming…  Gog is not the second coming Gog is 1000 years after the second coming 

At the second coming ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES WILL HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH

This is NOT JUST PEOPLE LIVING IN CANAAN - There are graves all over the world -ALL OF THEM WILL BE EMPTIED AT THE SECOND COMING

People living in Canaan will be resurrected at the same time everyone else will He doesn’t put the Cannaites on one side and the rest of the world on the otherNO NO NO - They are divided into two groups- Sheep  and goats 

He gathers both the good and the bad He gathers the wheat into his barn- he gathers the tares to be burned- 

He gathers the sheep and the goatsALL MANKIND IS BEFORE HIM AT THE SECOND COMING- THIS IS NOT GOG THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOG - THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAGOG AT THE END OF THE MK

The canaanites  will be there.. Unbelieving Israel will be there… believing Israel will be there.believing Gentiles will be there - unbelieving Gentiles  will be there..

God is not acknowledging what Israel claims to be or where they came from..

the promised land RIGHT NOW is not the kingdom of Heaven - The kingdom of God was taken from them 2000 some years ago- Because it was taken from them they do not now have it.. because it was taken from there house is now DESOLATE..

But even when he says your house is desolate you still claim the kingdom of God is within the borders of Cannan.. This is absolutely false God is not  gathering people out of Canaan and leaving the rest of the world alone NO  - There is one day when all the dead rise and stand before God.. not a day for Canaanites and another day for the rest of the world- Graves do not exist just in Canaan.. graves of good and bad people are all over the world..

This is the resurrection I am talking about - NOT GOG- NOT MAGOG - NOT HOW THINGS WILL BE AT THE END OF THE MK- But what will happen AT THE ONE AND ONLY SECONF COMING. NOTHING TO DO WITH GOG , Ethiopia, Persia, The camp of the saints , fire coming down…..NO NO NO THIS IS THE WRONG TIME FRAME THAT IS NOT THE SECOND COMING - God will gather all things that offend AT THE SECOND COMING- The tares will be burned at the second coming - The sheep and goats are at the second coming 

I can’t talk to you about the second coming while you think I am talking about Gog .. Gog is not the second coming —- FOCUS ON THE SECOND COMING - THIS IS WHEN THE WHEAT AND TARES ARE SEPARATED NOT GOG

This is when the children of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness NOTHING TO DO WITH GOG..

The sheep and  goats are where the children of the kingdom are cast out- These are part of the goats Not  GOG NOT MAGOG

 

False,not all the dead rise at the same time.

There is a resurection before the millinium and a resurection afterward.

The first resurection.is here.

 

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

The rest of the dead do not live again till after the millennium.

 

⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

 

I guess you've never read of that before.Well now you have.There is a select group resurrected who are given the promised land  and they live in it for 1000 years before the rest of the dead to throughout the world are resurrected.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Revelations says that’s where tgey are AT THE END OF THE MK- NOT NOW!!!

Ezekiel 37- 48 says Israel is there from the time they are resurected till Gog ,Persia,Ethiopia comes at the end of the millinium and beyond after Gog is destroyed.

 

 

 

The little horn governs the land of Israel today. The saints that will soon be persecuted live in Israel today. They have not died yet.

The ten horns share the promised land with the little horn today.

The following kingdom is the promised land which was promised to Christ thousands of years ago and given to the saints in verse 27.

 

²⁴ And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

²⁵ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

²⁶ But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

²⁷ And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

Mathew 25

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

 

The kingdom they are given is the same kingdom that was promised to them thousands of years ago.The promised land and the king in verse 34 is the king of that kingdom.Thevking of Israel.

 

Zech 9:9

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

guess you've never read of that before.Well now you have.There is a select group resurrected who are given the promised land  and they live in it for 1000 years before the rest of the dead to throughout the world are resurrected.

Christ is the first fruits afterward they that are Christs at his coming.. We (all believers) shall not all sleep but we (all believers) shall be changed , in a moment , in the twinkling of an eye- AT THE LAST TRUMP

There is no select group that gets resurrected at a different time… ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE- ALL MEANS ALL - not all except a select group - The saints you see at the end of the MK are ALL THE SAINTS WHO CAME DOWN WITH JESUS WHEN HE COMES.. HE COMES AND ALL NOT PART OF THE SAINTS COME WITH HIM WHEN HE COMES

THEY ARE ALL GLORIFIED AT THE SAME TIME 

all the saints come with him when he comes. There are no other saints in existence .. those who were converted at Christs coming were not saints before or they would have come down with all the other saints but all saints both the dead and the living are changed at the last trump and all come  back with him .. 

[transmogrified]

All false constructs of end time events violates what Paul says- They all have multiple resurrections for different groupings  of saints whether they be called OT saints, NT saints Tribulation saints but it is impossible to have ALL THE SAINTS return with Christ unless all are resurrected and raptured on the last day..

if you break it up into different groupings you MUST have multiple raptures as well or they can’t get up there to heaven to come down with him.

Pre trib is just one example but because they do not include OT saints in their pre trib resurrection they have them resurrected at the end of the tribulation.. but they do not have a RAPTURE for them so IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for them to come down from heaven with the other saints BECAUSE THEY NEVER GOT UP THERE..

For all the saints to return they all have to be raptured up there .. JUST BEING RESURRECTED does not mean you ascend up.. pre trib does not have living tribulation saints changed at all IN TOTAL VIOLATION OF WHAT PAUL SAID THAT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED..

It is just as impossible for you to have different groupings of saints resurrected at different times and not also have two raptures for all the saints to return with Jesus ..

You say there is a select group that gets resurrected at a different time than the rest of the world.. so you now have to add another rapture to get them up to heaven so they can return with Jesus.. one error leads to another.. instead of all the dead in Christ rising at the last trump you have to violate Paul again because now all are not changed at the last trump.. ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP- There are no other saint to change at a different time IF ALL ARE CHANGED THEN.

pre trib has their “select group” which are dubbed “church age saints” who lived from Pentecost to sometime before the tribulation.. What does that mean? IT MEANS ONLY this specific grouping of saints who lived from Pentecost till before the tribulation can come back with Jesus. How is this so? BECAUSE ONLY THAT SPECIFIC GROUP WAS RAPTURED UP TO HEAVEN.. no OT saints or trib saints can come back with Jesus BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER RAPTURED UP THERE - IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR ALL THE SAINTS TO RETURN WITH JESUS IN A PRE TRIB SCENARIO..

 The reason I am using pre trib as an example is you are breaking up groupings of saints into categories in the same way which makes it impossible for you to fulfill the criteria that all must be changed at the same time and all must return with Jesus…

The ONLY construct in which this criteria can be met is if ALL are changed on The day of the Lord at one time, and all are raptured at one time and all return with Jesus at one time..

[Shilohsfoal]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Christ is the first fruits afterward they that are Christs at his coming.. We (all believers) shall not all sleep but we (all believers) shall be changed , in a moment , in the twinkling of an eye- AT THE LAST TRUMP

There is no select group that gets resurrected at a different time… ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE- ALL MEANS ALL - not all except a select group - The saints you see at the end of the MK are ALL THE SAINTS WHO CAME DOWN WITH JESUS WHEN HE COMES.. HE COMES AND ALL NOT PART OF THE SAINTS COME WITH HIM WHEN HE COMES

THEY ARE ALL GLORIFIED AT THE SAME TIME 

all the saints come with him when he comes. There are no other saints in existence .. those who were converted at Christs coming were not saints before or they would have come down with all the other saints but all saints both the dead and the living are changed at the last trump and all come  back with him .. 

Not according to the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants.

 

I guess Paul was working with what he had to work with but John was given far more to work with after Paul was dead.

Jesus didn't share revelation with everyone.

[transmogrified]

2 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

guess Paul was working with what he had to work with but John was given far more to work with after Paul was dead.

Paul was the wise master builder who laid the foundation and there is no other foundation but what he laid..

  Paul said if we or an angels from preach anything different than what we have already preached to you let him be accursed..

We are built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus being the chief cornerstone.. John does not disagree with Paul.. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD AND IS PROFITABLE FOR REPROOF FOR CORRECTION FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUS THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT THOROUGHLY FURNISHED TO ALL GOOD WORKS.

 

You are saved IF you keep in memory what he preached

And you are not only denying what Paul preached you are denying what Zech 14:5 said that the lord my God would come and all the saints with thee..

You are following in the same steps as pre trib, Preterism, mid trib as they ALL DENY WHAT PAUL PREACHED  

He said every man should take heed HOW he builds on this foundation- Not WHETHER HE CHOOSES to build on this foundation.

ALL WILL BE CHANGED AG THE LAST TRUMP .. 

pre trib believes only those that live from Pentecost to before the tribulation will return with Jesus.. It will never happen that way 

You believe there is a separate resurrection for a select group as well- IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN…ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT HAPPEN 

You reject what Paul preached you are rejecting the wise MASTER BUILDER.. The gospel certified and that was given to him by revelation..

Your construct does not fit Paul or John or the prophets.. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IN ERROR TO REJECT WHAG HE SAID.