RV_Wizard Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 803 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 341 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted September 23, 2023 8 hours ago, Scott Free said: That may be true, but I do not see you abandoning the benefits. Evolution research has brought gene therapy for cancer. The study of how cells and viruses work is not dependent on molecules-to-man sophistry. Biology is the study of living things. Unprovable theories of origin are just distractions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 803 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 341 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted September 23, 2023 7 hours ago, Scott Free said: Well, we can take away from the Bible that the Earth is a flat table held up by columns or suspended under a dome of water. How about the giant leviathan that resides in the sea? Do you teach these things as well? If not, why? 1. The Bible doesn't say that. 2. Dome of water? Did you know that clouds are comprised of water vapor? 3. Ever hear of a plesiosaurus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 803 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 341 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted September 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Sparks said: And what worries you about metaphors to explain to people what is happening? Jesus used parables a lot, to explain to people certain ideas. It's not the unclear metaphors that actually bother people. It's all those "Thou shalt not's" that interfere with their fun. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Sparks said: The Gospels are considered the 'Gospel Truth' because they are testimony. So is the Old Testament, just a different era and covenant for a different people. That is why they call them the New and Old testament (think testimony like in court). I think you are always a little light on evidence and tend to skip past those big details. If you want to be intellectually honest with yourself, try digging into those details. Worried that God Almighty could not possibly sit on His throne, above the Earth? Why? What about God seems so weak? And what worries you about metaphors to explain to people what is happening? Jesus used parables a lot, to explain to people certain ideas. Putting forth the effort to list and explain references that are not requested is a waist of time. They will not be read and would not change opinions in this case. I am just seeking airtight counterpoints that expose my error or refine my views. Thank you. Edited September 23, 2023 by Scott Free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said: 1. The Bible doesn't say that. 2. Dome of water? Did you know that clouds are comprised of water vapor? 3. Ever hear of a plesiosaurus? It is too tiresome to review these problems that have faced Christianity for centuries. Either they are known or not. Going over it and arguing every step of the way would be as fun as pulling teeth. Edited September 23, 2023 by Scott Free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,163 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/20/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 12 hours ago, Scott Free said: Putting forth the effort to list and explain references that are not requested is a waist of time. They will not be read and would not change opinions in this case. I am just seeking airtight counterpoints that expose my error or refine my views. Thank you. You were asked simply to state why any of that scripture was not literal. You already posted each one. You have your opinion, of course, but I don't think you can actually post why these scriptures were not literal. You cannot treat the Bible like a book of folklore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,636 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,463 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted September 23, 2023 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory is the theory that explains why it works. Just so we know you got it, Show us the scientific definition of evolution, the four points of Darwnian theory and show us which of them is false, with evidence. Shabbat shalom, The Barbarian. "Evolution" is defined as "any change in the heritable traits within a population across generations." Nevertheless, there's no proof that this variation extends beyond the borders of the created "kinds" (Hebrew: miniym). Genesis 1:20-31 (KJV) 20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth." 23 And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FIFTH DAY. 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind": and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat": and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE SIXTH DAY. We don't know how many of these "kinds" there were originally, but the Creationist believes in a genetic "orchard," rather than a single, genetic "tree." Do you mean THESE four points? "The four propositions underlying Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection are: (1) more individuals are produced than can survive; (2) there is therefore a struggle for existence; (3) individuals within a species show variation; and (4) offspring tend to inherit their parents' characters [sic]." - The Open University If so, the second point suggests that this "struggle" has been going on since there were "individuals." However, no one present today was there to confirm that hypothesis. Furthermore, prior to the Fall, we had more than enough room for all sorts of inheritable combinations. So, why would there be a "struggle to survive?" God's command after the Flood was ... Genesis 9:1-7 (KJV) 1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which isthe blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein." The first point assumes death already occurs among individuals. However, the Scriptures tell us that death didn't occur until after the Fall; that is, death is the RESULT of the sin that mankind performed against God's command and nature suffered for their sin, since the man was given dominion over all the rest. Romans 5:12-21 (KJV) 12 Wherefore, as BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, and DEATH BY SIN; and SO DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless DEATH REIGNED FROM ADAM TO MOSES, EVEN OVER THEM THAT HAD NOT SINNED after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for THE JUDGMENT WAS BY ONE TO CONDEMNATION, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE DEATH REIGNED BY ONE; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE JUDGMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN TO CONDEMNATION; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as SIN HATH REIGNED UNTO DEATH, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 8:12-25 (KJV) 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, "Abba," "Father." 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that THE SUFFERINGS OF THIS PRESENT TIME ARE NOT WORTHY TO BE COMPARED WITH THE GLORY WHICH SHALL BE REVEALED IN US. 19 For the earnest (downpayment) expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because THE CREATURE ITSELF ALSO SHALL BE DELIVERED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. 22 For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANETH AND TRAVAILETH IN PAIN TOGETHER until now. 23 And not only they, but OURSELVES ALSO, WHICH HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, EVEN WE OURSELVES GROAN WITHIN OURSELVES, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 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Scott Free Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Sparks said: You were asked simply to state why any of that scripture was not literal. You already posted each one. You have your opinion, of course, but I don't think you can actually post why these scriptures were not literal. You cannot treat the Bible like a book of folklore. The point is, throughout history Christians that took the Old Testament literal to define nature have been very incorrect. Could we be making those same mistakes? Edited September 23, 2023 by Scott Free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,163 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/20/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, Scott Free said: The point is, throughout history Christians that took the Old Testament literal to define nature have been very incorrect. Could we be making those same mistakes? Where have they incorrectly defined nature in the OT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 Just now, Sparks said: Where have they incorrectly defined nature in the OT? Do not wish to reiterate the points. It would get very tedious combing through the minutia of a history lesson. I am not seeking validation, only correction to sublimate my opinions. I am not trying to build you up. I want to be torn down to see what remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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