Our default is the spirit (not the flesh)!

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Jesus said in Revelation 21:8 the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

 

So, we know being in fear and being afraid and cowardly is a sin according to Jesus because those doing this will be thrown in to hell.

In the story about Job, you'll notice that when the devil is talking to God he mentions that God had placed a hedge of protection around Job which is why the devil could not touch him up till that point.  And, in the story you'll notice it says job kept doing the same sacrifice again and again because he was in fear that his children would curse God. (see Job 3:25)

This establishes that Job was actually having a sin problem in his life because he was in fear.  Because of this sin, satan has a right to come against Job which is why the hedge of protection was removed by the Lord because if we live after the flesh (sin) we reap corruption (Gal 6:7,8)

The devil did not even know the hedge was broken until the Lord told the devil was Job was in his hands already and the Lord limited satan so he could not kill Job. 

Before Jesus Christ went to the cross and was resurrected in victory, the devil had the right to go before the Lord’s throne in Heaven which was based upon the authority God had given to Adam (let man have dominion – see Genesis 1:26-28).

After the cross the devil cannot go in to the third Heaven where the Father’s throne is anymore like he used to be able to do under the old covenant, not after Hebrews 9 where Jesus used His own Blood and cleansed the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than those of bulls and goats as under the old covenant.

The attack on Job was limited by the Lord and stopped when Job did a sacrifice in faith for his friends which would have been when he got back on track and was no longer in fear and this is when the hedge of protection from the Lord went back up protecting Job and you’ll notice in the story that Job did quite well after that because of the blessing of the Lord.

The Lord called Job righteous because the sin Job did by being in fear was something that was done in ignorance at the time.  The Lord says in Romans 4:15 where no law is, there is no transgression.

Just like Paul found mercy in the eyes of the Lord because his sin was done in ignorance. (1 Timothy 1:13).  Since Job was heart right before the Lord and did not have the entire Word of God in his hands to study like we do today, the Lord had mercy on Job and considered him to be a righteous man.

The reason being ignorant for us today doesn’t last for very long as a new born babe in Christ is simply because the Lord has provided us with the whole counsel of God in written form and He has sent the Holy Spirit to be out Teacher to lead and guide us in to ALL Truth and take what belongs to Jesus and will show it unto us (John 16:13-15).  Jesus said that God’s Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

In Luke 12:48, Jesus said For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  More is required of us since the Lord has given us far more to work with than what Job had in his day.

Christians are called to “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7), and those not doing this will experience what Job experienced because they aren’t abiding IN CHRIST which gives the devil an open door in to their lives due to the hedge of protection the Lord has provided to not be protecting them.  The Lord’s protection is only applicable to those that are IN CHRIST

[SpiritSong]

On 9/8/2023 at 8:18 AM, Stan Murff said:

The bible speaks of people falling away from the faith.
They can't fall away if they were never in the faith to begin with.

It's good to go with the plain reading of scripture.

Are these the same to whom the Lord says: "I never knew you." ?

[Neighbor]

13 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

Let's not accuse one another but reason together.

 

Hi, Was and is intended to be an attack on the positional statement not on any person. The response given has included reasoning and Bible passage.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

6 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

Are these the same to whom the Lord says: "I never knew you." ?

Contrary to popular erroneous teaching . . . It's possible for one to get born again and then turn away from the Lord later and the Lord tells them "Depart from Me, I never knew you" even though they were legitimately born again at one point before falling away.

Just like when we get saved the Lord remembers our sin no more even though it's still on our record... the flip side is true where when one gets born again and then turns away from the Lord all the good they have done is no longer remembered (getting born again and turning away from out sin is a good work that we are called to see Ephesians 2:10 among others) 

Here's one place where the Lord says the righteousness a person had done (getting born again) will no longer be remembered.

Ezekiel 18:24 (YLT)
And in the turning back of the righteous from his righteousness, And he hath done perversity, According to all the abominations That the wicked hath done, he doth -- thus he liveth, All his righteousnesses that he hath done are not remembered, For his trespass that he hath trespassed, And for his sin that he hath sinned, For them he doth die.

Sure there are false conversions,. but to say all people that fall away from the Lord were never saved to begin with is simply not true,

In Mark 4:13-20 Jesus said that those that later fell away had originally received the Word with gladness.  So Jesus is not saying they were never born again as some teach in error.

If Jesus said they received the Word with gladness.... then, they received the Word with gladness!  But not accepting the plain reading of scripture, many fall in to error.



 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Stan Murff

[SpiritSong]

11 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Was and is intended to be an attack on the positional statement not on any person. The response given has included reasoning and Bible passage.

And have you considered the rest of the post from which you quoted? What do you think about the scripture presented?

[SpiritSong]

5 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Contrary to popular erroneous teaching . . . It's possible for one to get born again and then turn away from the Lord later and the Lord tells them "Depart from Me, I never knew you" even though they were legitimately born again at one point before falling away.

Just like when we get saved the Lord remembers our sin no more even though it's still on our record... the flip side is true where when one gets born again and then turns away from the Lord all the good they have done is no longer remembered (getting born again and turning away from out sin is a good work that we are called to see Ephesians 2:10 among others) 

Here's one place where the Lord says the righteousness a person had done (getting born again) will no longer be remembered.

Ezekiel 18:24 (YLT)
And in the turning back of the righteous from his righteousness, And he hath done perversity, According to all the abominations That the wicked hath done, he doth -- thus he liveth, All his righteousnesses that he hath done are not remembered, For his trespass that he hath trespassed, And for his sin that he hath sinned, For them he doth die.

Sure there are false conversions,. but to say all people that fall away from the Lord were never saved to begin with is simply not true,

In Mark 4:13-20 Jesus said that those that later fell away had originally received the Word with gladness.  So Jesus is not saying they were never born again as some teach in error.

If Jesus said they received the Word with gladness.... then, they received the Word with gladness!  But not accepting the plain reading of scripture, many fall in to error.



 

What do you make of these verses?

 

John 10:28-30

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

[Vine Abider]

9 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Contrary to popular erroneous teaching . . . It's possible for one to get born again and then turn away from the Lord later and the Lord tells them "Depart from Me, I never knew you" even though they were legitimately born again at one point before falling away.

Just like when we get saved the Lord remembers our sin no more even though it's still on our record... the flip side is true where when one gets born again and then turns away from the Lord all the good they have done is no longer remembered (getting born again and turning away from out sin is a good work that we are called to see Ephesians 2:10 among others) 

Here's one place where the Lord says the righteousness a person had done (getting born again) will no longer be remembered.

Ezekiel 18:24 (YLT)
And in the turning back of the righteous from his righteousness, And he hath done perversity, According to all the abominations That the wicked hath done, he doth -- thus he liveth, All his righteousnesses that he hath done are not remembered, For his trespass that he hath trespassed, And for his sin that he hath sinned, For them he doth die.

Sure there are false conversions,. but to say all people that fall away from the Lord were never saved to begin with is simply not true,

In Mark 4:13-20 Jesus said that those that later fell away had originally received the Word with gladness.  So Jesus is not saying they were never born again as some teach in error.

If Jesus said they received the Word with gladness.... then, they received the Word with gladness!  But not accepting the plain reading of scripture, many fall in to error.



 

 

4 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

What do you make of these verses?

 

John 10:28-30

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

While the OSAS debate is important, it is probably not a core item of our faith.  We will never be one when it comes to doctrine - only in Christ are we one, and this topic can be quite devicive.

And whenever OSAS is brought up, it tends to derail threads, with people passionate on both sides.  So Stan, I think it's good to answer her about this often quoted passage, but then let's get back to the topic at hand, i.e., our new man as the default.

Thanks!

[Neighbor]

15 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

our new man as the default.

 

Absent continuous effort, plus awareness, I suspect the default is not to be found in newness; but instead in the fallen state of being one was first born into.

I do think that continuous effort to be productively born again as well as thriving in the spirit gained, not stillborn, constantly aware of the pull of the world to it's ungodly ways not participating in it's values is necessary precisely because it is not a default position of any person.

Faith is dead without works, leaving the once actively faithful worse off than they were before having faith (Faith of Jesus)  at all. To be born into awareness and then do nothing I suspect does not put one into a default position of being born again a new person, but instead a newly fallen creature.

[steve morrow]

NOT  CORE  ITEM ???

 

ACTS 3:22  for moses truly said unto the fathers a prophet shall  THE  LORD  YOUR  GOD  raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me  ---  HIM  shall you hear in all things whatsoever  HE  shall say unto you 

 

--3:23--  and it shall come to pass that every soul  --- which will not hear that prophet --- SHALL  BE  DESTROYED  ---  FROM  AMONG  THE  PEOPLE 

 

ACTS 5:20  go stand and speak in the temple to the people --- all the words of this life ---

 

MARK 8:35   for whosoever will --save-- his life shall lose it  but whosoever shall lose his life --- for my sake --- AND  THE  GOSPELS  THE  SAME  SHALL  SAVE  IT

 

ARE  YOU  SAVED  BY  OUR  SAVIOUR  JESUS  CHRIST  OR  BY  MAN  AND  HIS  PRIDE  AND  ARROGANCY 

 

JOHN 10:26  but you believe not because you are not of  MY  sheep as I said unto you 

--10:27-- MY  sheep hear  MY  voice and I know them and they  FOLLOW  ME

--10:28-- and I give unto them --eternal life-- and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of  MY  hand

--10:29--  MY  FATHER  which gave them  ME  is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of  MY  FATHERS  HAND 

 

JOHN 17:6  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest  ME  out of the world  thine they were and thou gavest them me --- AND  THEY  HAVE  KEPT  THY  WORD ---

--17:7--  now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given  ME  are of thee

--17:8--  for I have given unto them --THE  WORDS-- which thou gavest  ME  ---  and they have received them  ---  and have known surely that  I  came out from thee and they have believed that thou didst send  ME

 

JOHN 6:65  and  HE  said  therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto  ME  except it were given unto him of  MY  FATHER 

--6:66-- from that time many of  HIS  disciples went back and walked no more with  HIM

--6:67--  then said  JESUS  unto the twelve  ---  will you also go away  ---

--6:68--  then simon peter answered  HIM  LORD  to whom shall we go  ---  thou hast the words of eternal life  ---

 

2 THESSALONIANS  and with all deceivableness of unrighteousnss --- in them that perish ---  because they received not the love of the truth --- that they might be saved ---

 

PROVERBS 8:6  for  MY  mouth shall speak truth --- and wickedness is an abomination to  MY  lips ---

--8:8--  all the words of  MY  MOUTH  are in righteousness there is nothing froward or perverse in them 

 

ROMANS 6:16  know you not that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey his servants you are to whom you obey whether of sin unto death or of --- obedience unto righteousness ---

 

1 JOHN 3:10  in this --- THE  CHILDREN  OF  GOD  ARE  MANIFEST  ---  and the children of the devil  ---  whosoever doeth  --not righteousness--  is not of  GOD  neither he that loveth not his brother 

 

2 JOHN 1:9  whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of  CHRIST  --- **HATH  NOT  GOD** ---  he that abideth in the  DOCTRINE  OF  CHRIST  hath both THE  FATHER  AND  THE  SON 

--1:10-- IF --  there come --- any unto you --- and bring not this doctrine --- receive him not into your house neither bid him  GOD  SPEED ---

 

PSALM 12:8  THE  WICKED  WALK  ON  EVERY  SIDE  WHEN  THE  VILEST  MEN  ARE  EXALTED

 

PSALM 46:10  BE  STILL  AND  KNOW  THAT  I  AM  GOD  ---  I  WILL  BE  EXALTED  AMONG  THE  HEATHEN  I  WILL  BE  EXALTED  IN  THE  EARTH  ---

 

PROVERBS 28:17  A  MAN  THAT  DOETH  VIOLENCE  TO  THE  BLOOD  OF  ANY  PERSON  SHALL  FLEE  TO  THE  PIT  ---  LET  NO  MAN  STAY  HIM  ---

 

ACTS 13:23  OF  THIS  MANS  SEED  HATH  --GOD--  ACCORDING  TO  HIS  PROMISE  RAISED  UNTO  ISRAEL  --A  SAVIOUR--  JESUS

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  MY  SAVIOUR 

 

 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

12 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

What do you make of these verses?

 

John 10:28-30

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

What do you make of these verses?
 

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “brethren” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God. 

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

*A condition is given here to be righteous before the Lord which is IF we continue in the faith.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

*If once saved always saved was true, then the Lord would not be speaking thru Jude to put us in remembrance about what happened to those that quit believing (turned their backs on the Lord to live in opposition to Him which is to live in sin).

*If angels having been created perfect turn away from the Lord and be separated from Him forever, we would experience the same.  Thankfully, the Lord has provided a way for man to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (see Proverbs 28:13), but if we continue in our sin we will not have mercy due having turned away from the Lord

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

*This is speaking of those that were once in the faith having become born again believers and later turned away from the Lord. 

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins

*If we knowing and willing continue in sin, Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross is no longer applicable and there will be no new sacrifice for sin forthcoming other than what Jesus has already done at the Cross.  One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

*One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Ezekiel 18:26,27
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 18:20 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20-24
 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Matthew 10:32,33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

*This indicates that these folks were born again and they had "fallen from grace" because they turn away from trusting in Jesus for their salvation.