List of Passages that may Speak either For or Against Eternal Security

[Vine Abider]

I've been hearing that one can never get to the bottom of the OSAS for/against discussion, as each side will accuse the other of dodging questions, otherwise being difficult or just blind.  Our departed brother, OmegaMan, put together this list of verses 2019* that are either for or against eternal security.  I don't know that this is an exhaustive list, but I think it's a good one to refer to for what I propose to do here.

I've added numbering to the passages.  The first group of passages, numbers 1-21, are ones he'd listed that may speak against eternal security; the second group of passages, numbers  22-47, are ones he listed that may speak for eternal security. (When you cite a passage on the list, it might be helpful if you give the number with it.)

I propose some simple guidelines for healthy and effective discussion:  Take only one verse at a time from this list, and discuss how you believe it applies either for or against eternal security, and then wait for responses before posting about that verse again.  Responders should try to do the same in their reply, and if you quote another passage in your reply, keep it to that one passage for your reply.

This way I hope we can keep it simple, without the confusion of people jumping from this passage to that passage, which can be frustrating to keep track of and open the door for misunderstandings.  And PLEASE no accusations toward your brothers & sisters (for whom Christ died)!  This includes things like, "Well I would expect nothing less from those in such & such camp" or "You are just cherry-picking verses" or some other unChrist like response.  Okay?

By your participation, I ask and hope that you will abide by these simple guidelines.  Let everything you say be for the building up of one another in love!  LET'S HAVE PATIENCE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

If anyone has any other guidelines to suggest, anything productive will be considered. So let's give it a try and see what happens - may His Spirit enlighten and guide us!

* if you are interested in reviewing that original thread started by OmegaMan, it is here: 

 

Here are the numbered passages:

Passages Which May Speak Against the Eternal Security of the believer

1.      Matthew 7:19-23 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'” 

2.     Matthew 10:22 “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

3.      Matthew 24:9-13 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

4.     Luke 12:46 “The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.”

5.      Luke 13:6-9 “Then he told this parable: A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'”

6.     John 8:31-32 “To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, ‘If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.’”

7.      John 15:1-6 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”

8.     Romans 11:20-22 “…But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

9.     1 Corinthians 9:27 “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”

10.   Colossians 1:21-23 “Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation– if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”

11.    1 Timothy 1:18-20 “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” 

12.   1 Timothy 4:1 “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.”

13.   Hebrews 3:6 “But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.”

14.   Hebrews 3:12-14 “See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

15.   Hebrews 6:4-6 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

16.   Hebrews 10:26-31 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

17.   2 Peter 2:20-21 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.”

18.   2 Peter 3:17 “Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.”

19.   1 John 2:24 “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.”

20.  Revelation 3:5 “He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.”

21.   Revelation 22:19 “And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

 

Passages Which May Speak For the Eternal Security of the believer

22.  Psalm 37:23,24 &28 If the Lord delights in a man's way, he makes his steps firm; 24 though he stumble, he will not fall, for the Lord upholds him with his hand. 28 For the Lord loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off…”

23.  John 6:37-40 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

24.  John 10:26-30 “…you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

25.  John 14:16 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—“

26.  Romans 6:3-5, 8 “Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection... Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.”

27.   Romans 8:28-39 “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all–how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

28.  Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

29.  1 Corinthians 1:7-9 “Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.”

30.  Ephesians 1:13-14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.”

31.   Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.”

32.  Ephesians 4:30 “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”

33.  Hebrews 8:12 “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

34.  Hebrews 13:5-6 “Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, ‘Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.’ So we say with confidence, ‘The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?’”

35.  1 Peter 1:3-5 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.”

36.  1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

37.   1 John 5:18 “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.”

38.  Jude 24-25 “To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy– to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

39.  John 3:14-16 “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

40.  John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

41.   Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

42.  Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus…”

43.  Romans 11:29 “…for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.”

44.  Philippians 1:6 “…being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

45.  2 Timothy 1:9 “…who has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time…”

46.  Hebrews 7:24-25 “…but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.”

47.  Hebrews 9:11-12 “When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.”

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Here's one that most definitely DOES Speak Against the Eternal Security of the believer

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save  us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness.  In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

 

[Dennis1209]

Good morning, Vine,

I will try my best to abide by the guidelines. I will choose:

John 10:26 (KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30. I and my Father are one.

The above verses apply to true believers with saving faith. Those who have not examined themselves to see if they are in the faith and those who are self-deceived will hear, "I never knew you."

I have pondered and studied the question, can the gift of eternal life and security be revoked once received? Can I do or not do something freely gifted to me on my own? For those unaware, I was what the Bible calls a "backslider" for decades. When I repented in November 2016 and started studying God's word earnestly, Hebrews 6:4-6 worried me exceedingly.

I studied Hebrews 6:4-6 and most other scriptures about losing one's Salvation. When I started to view scripture with hermeneutic hygiene and in context, that question cleared up for me. Those in Hebrew chapter six had tasted the Spirit and heavenly gifts of Christianity but elected to stay under the law and Judaism. They were almost there, as King Agrippa admitted. Close only counts for horseshoes and hand grenades; either is saved or not.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. [emphasis added]

I investigated the person of Lot, his character, background, where he chose to live (Sodom), and the people he surrounded himself with. Still, Lot was counted as righteous, escaped judgment, and was saved. The Prodigal Son is another example of getting humbled and coming back home.

I think I mentioned this in my testimony posted here on Worthy. Almost immediately, when the Lord turned my life around, the Bible seemed to open on its own, and a passage popped out and struck me hard:

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Fine scholars on both sides have debated this OSAS question since the fourth century. It is a critical Salvation doctrine to know for certain our Salvation is sure and secure. If we disagree with the Reformed Baptists and fine scholars such as John MacArthur, John Gill, R. C. Sproul, John Piper, and many more, do we throw out the baby with the bath water over a single core issues?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Naturally, there are more than two, but since the Reformation, there have been two major camps on this essential doctrine. The chart below is a comparison of beliefs and ideology. This chart is worth a thousand words, so I will let it speak for itself with the differences in religion.

I was going to write an allegory about the engagement and marriage of a couple, the engagement and wedding rings, the symbology, representations of those rings, the dowery, the promises, the groom asking for the rings back, etc. But I am running out of ink and coffee. 😊

[Vine Abider]

And I woke up thinking about another possible guideline for this thread . . . something like: Present a verse from the list, that best highlights your belief regarding eternal security, and tell us why you think that way.  That is, refrain from attacking another's position or viewpoint, just state why you believe the way you do, based on that verse.

How does that sound @Dennis1209 (and anybody else)?

[enoob57]

15 hours ago, Big Boy Johnson said:

Here's one that most definitely DOES Speak Against the Eternal Security of the believer

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

As we are instructed by God to take the whole of Scripture to rightly understand the particulars so this:
1 John 2:19 (KJV)

[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Light cannot become darkness and darkness light...

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

And I woke up thinking about another possible guideline for this thread . . . something like: Present a verse from the list, that best highlights your belief regarding eternal security, and tell us why you think that way.  That is, refrain from attacking another's position or viewpoint, just state why you believe the way you do, based on that verse.

How does that sound @Dennis1209 (and anybody else)?

Disclaimer: With the following, I am not preaching but explaining why I strongly hold the view that I do and why. As I mentioned, these topics have been debated for centuries by the brightest biblical theologians and scholars. I am a simple Bible student and do not claim my view is the correct one. I do not need any textual criticism of my exegesis.

John 3:15 That whosoever (from Adam to you and me, to the last person to be saved) believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life (conditional election & assurance & security). 16. For God so loved the world (from Adam to…), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (from Adam to…) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved (resistible Grace). [emphasis added]

There are two classes of people in the Bible: those who looked forward to the cross in OT times and those who looked back at the cross in the age of Grace.

Jesus could not have stated it more plainly in these most beloved Bible verses. Omniscience is knowing from the beginning what a person's free will, actions, and choices will be and the consequences. The Lord demonstrated His omniscience with David: what would happen if David made this or that free will choice?

How do God's foreknowledge, omniscience, predestination, and our "free will" work?

In this 1 Samuel account, David appeals to the omniscient God to tell him about the future. In the first instance (23:1–5), David asks God whether he should go to the city of Keilah and whether he will successfully defeat the Philistines there. God answers in the affirmative in both cases. David goes to Keilah and, indeed, defeats the Philistines.

In the second section (23:6–13), David asks the Lord two questions: (1) will his nemesis Saul come to Keilah and threaten the city on account of David's presence? And (2) will the people of Keilah turn him over to Saul to avoid Saul's wrath? Again, God answers both questions affirmatively: "He will come down," and "They will deliver you."

Neither of these events that God foresaw ever actually happened. Once David hears God's answers, he and his men leave the city. When Saul discovers this fact (v. 13), he abandons his trip to Keilah. Saul never made it to the city. The men of Keilah never turned David over to Saul.[1]

Being foreordained and those that are called the elect result from an omniscient Lord, knowing beforehand our choices, actions, and final decisions that seal our fate. God sends no one to Hell; by our free will and choice, we either accept or reject God's love for us and His pardon for our sins against a holy God.

Some may ask, what about God hardening Pharaoh's and others' free will hearts? The Lord knows their hearts and intentions, choices, and actions from the foundation of the world or beyond. Apparently, the Lord mightily increases their resolve to do what they will do anyway. Will a puffed-up, evil, wicked heart do righteousness?

God does not just love a select few that are "called-election," John 3:15-17 in Jesus's own words, make that abundantly unmistakable in my opinion.

⁷ Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. [emphasis added]

We are tripart beings, consisting of body, soul, and spirit. Our spirit is that part of us capable of communicating with God. When the Holy Spirit indwells us, we can now boldly go before the throne of God with prayer, praise, thanksgiving, and requests.

I think the only prayer God will hear first from the unsaved is asking Jesus for eternal life and believing what he did on the cross and our core beliefs. I reason God communicates through our human spirits that He is real and calling us. I judge the following has always been the standard to seek out the One True Living God.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [emphasis mine]

No other religion or god I know of has claimed to have spoken and created everything that exists. No other false religion or god has given about 1,500 prophecies, and about half of them have come to fruition exactly how and when they were predicted. We have every reason to believe the remaining prophecies for our time will occur in our generation, the generation that witnessed the rebirth of Israel.

 

 

---

[1] Heiser, M. S. (2015). The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible (First Edition, p. 68). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

[AnOrangeCat]

22 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I've been hearing that one can never get to the bottom of the OSAS for/against discussion, as each side will accuse the other of dodging questions, otherwise being difficult or just blind. 

I've noticed that too, and it's kind of amazing with how needless it is. The_Patriot21 recently pointed out in one of the recent threads on the topic that our position on OSAS is pretty much a moot point when it comes to how we should deal with people. Couldn't agree more with the post in question.

Anyway while I don't personally buy into OSAS I do very much believe that we're all works in progress and that sometimes we fall off the track, but that doesn't necessarily mean we lose our salvation. God knows our hearts, and IMO he's understanding when it comes to addictions, habits, our own level of understanding and comprehension, and so on. It's just a question of how far it goes. Paul gives us some interesting food for thought in I Corinthians 5, which I believe needs to be read in its entirety to grasp the situation. Most striking to me is 5:5 which says this: "hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."

This was a man in the church committing incest, which Paul pointed out was something even the pagans of the area didn't look upon well. We know Paul spoke out strongly against sexual sin in general. Despite that, despite telling the Corinthians to expel this man from them and shun him to the point of not even eating with him, and to "hand him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh", there was still hope for his spirit. Saying that after such strong words is really thought provoking. There's a bit of wiggle room with the interpretation IMO as it's unclear whether the destruction was going to bring about repentance or if it was God going "Enough is enough."

I don't see it as OSAS support, mind. But I do see it as a case demonstrating God's mercy toward someone who believed yet was caught up in a sinful lifestyle. Despite the man's sin being considered especially heinous we should remember that sin is sin and that we should resist it. We should also keep in mind that sin has consequences. In his case it was being made an outcast and the destruction of the flesh. In a way the man's situation reminds me of those whose Heavenly rewards are burned up.

[Mr. M]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:07 PM, Vine Abider said:

By your participation, I ask and hope that you will abide by these simple guidelines.  Let everything you say be for the building up of one another in love!  LET'S HAVE PATIENCE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

If anyone has any other guidelines to suggest, anything productive will be considered. So let's give it a try and see what happens - may His Spirit enlighten and guide us!

Here is a guideline that I would propose be considered in the discussion of ANY doctrine.

John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or I speak on My own. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

With each passage under consideration, rather than see a for or against a doctrine, I seek guidance on living a life in accordance with God's Will, for this is what ascends above a doctrinal debate. For example, with #1

On 9/26/2023 at 4:07 PM, Vine Abider said:

1.      Matthew 7:19-23 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”

Regardless if someone sees this as for or against eternal security, what should be agreeable is that the Lord's words place as a bottom line for the Christian walk, 'am I in God's Will, or straying from it'?. Does eternal security encourage and exhort others to pursue righteousness and holiness, or does it create a laxity in the laity? That has always been my concern. Not a doctrinal debate, but clearly defined instructions for how we are to live a life that is pleasing to the Father. Entering into a doctrinal debate that is not clearly presented, in that minds guided by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and not the tree of life formulates an endless debate dating from the fourth century is to me inconsistent with that Will. It seems to me to be a completely carnal activity without edification, regardless of how polite the conversation. With each of these passages the exhortation remains the same; "let those who have ears, hear what THE SPIRIT is saying to the Church".

This one makes my list of "Worthy Exhortations".

Hebrews 3:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief

in departing from the living God; 

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” 

lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold

the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 

15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

May every thread and every post be words of

"edification, exhortation and comfort".

[Vine Abider]

31 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Here is a guideline that I would propose be considered in the discussion of ANY doctrine.

John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or I speak on My own. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

With each passage under consideration, rather than see a for or against a doctrine, I seek guidance on living a life in accordance with God's Will, for this is what ascends above a doctrinal debate. For example, with #1

Regardless if someone sees this as for or against eternal security, what should be agreeable is that the Lord's words place as a bottom line for the Christian walk, 'am I in God's Will, or straying from it'?. Does eternal security encourage and exhort others to pursue righteousness and holiness, or does it create a laxity in the laity? That has always been my concern. Not a doctrinal debate, but clearly defined instructions for how we are to live a life that is pleasing to the Father. Entering into a doctrinal debate that is not clearly presented, in that minds guided by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and not the tree of life formulates an endless debate dating from the fourth century is to me inconsistent with that Will. It seems to me to be a completely carnal activity without edification, regardless of how polite the conversation. With each of these passages the exhortation remains the same; "let those who have ears, hear what THE SPIRIT is saying to the Church".

This one makes my list of "Worthy Exhortations".

Hebrews 3:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief

in departing from the living God; 

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” 

lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold

the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 

15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

May every thread and every post be words of

"edification, exhortation and comfort".

Well now - that takes it to another level, doesn't it!  What a concept . . . something that's edifying and practical, which would hopefully help to keep us all from going snorkeling in the weeds!

Thanks for the input!

Again, my hope is that we could keep things simple too, because in reading so many replies on other threads, it seems that when things get more complicated with responses quoting numerous verses, often misunderstandings seem to flourish.

[steve morrow]

CALVIN  AND  ??  OR  JESUS  CHRIST

 

2 TIMOTHY 1:9  who hath saved us --- AND  --CALLED-- US WITH AN HOLY CALLING --- not according to our works but according to  --HIS  OWN  PURPOSE  --  AND  GRACE  --  WHICH  WAS  GIVEN  US  IN  --CHRIST  JESUS  BEFORE  THE  WORLD  BEGAN--

 

HEBREWS 13:5  let your conversation be without  --covetousness--  and be content with such things as you have ---FOR  HE  --- HATH  SAID --- I will never leave nor forsake thee ---

*******JOSHUA 24:20   ---  IF  YOU  FORSAKE  THE  LORD  AND  SERVE  STRANGE  GODS   ---  THEN  HE  WILL TURN  AND  DO  YOU  HURT AND  CONSUME  YOU  AFTER THAT  HE  HATH  DONE  YOU  HURT*******

 

                            *********************************************************************

 

1 CHRONICLES 28:9  and thou solomon my son -- know thou the  GOD  of thy father -- and serve  HIM  with a perfect heart  ---  and with a willing mind  ---  for  THE  LORD  searcheth all hearts and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts if thou seek  HIM   HE  will be --- FOUND  OF  THEE  ---  BUT  IF  THOU  FORSAKE  HIM   ---  HE  WILL  CAST  THEE  OFF  FOREVER ---

 

PROVERBS 8:17   I  LOVE  THEM  THAT  LOVE  ME  AND  THOSE  THAT  SEEK  ME  EARLY  SHALL  FIND  ME

 

PROVERBS 8:32  now therefore -- HEARKEN  UNTO  ME -- O  YOU  CHILDREN  --  FOR  BLESSED  ARE  THEY  THAT  KEEP  MY  WAYS --

--8:33-- hear instruction --AND  BE  WISE-- AND  REFUSE  IT  NOT--

--8:34-- blessed is the man that  --heareth  ME-- watching daily at  MY  gates waiting at the posts of  MY  doors 

 

--8:35--  FOR  WHOSO  FINDETH  ME  ---  findeth  life and shall obtain favor of  THE  LORD 

--8:36--  BUT  HE  THAT  SINNETH  AGAINST  ME  WRONGETH  HIS  OWN  SOUL  ALL  THEY  THAT  HATE  ME  LOVE  DEATH

 

ACTS 3:22  for moses truly said unto the fathers a prophet shall  --THE  LORD  YOUR  GOD-- raise up unto you of your brethren  ---  like unto me  HIM  shall you  hear in all things whatsoever  HE  shall say unto you---

-- 3:23  -- AND  IT  SHALL  COME  TO  PASS  THAT  EVERY  SOUL  WHICH  WILL  NOT  HEAR  THAT  PROPHET  SHALL  BE  DESTROYED  FROM  AMONG  THE  PEOPLE 

 

JOB 32:21 let me not I pray you accept any mans person --- neither let me give flattering titles unto man

--32:22--  for I know not to give flattering titles in so doing my maker would soon take me away

GALATIANS 1:10  FOR  DO  I  NOW  PERSUADE  MEN  OR  GOD  ---  for if I yet pleased men I should not be the servant of  CHRIST

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST