Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[farouk]

2 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Thats why I spin things over and over and over again and intently look at each piece in their contexts and them compare between them and try to find common themes. 

While trying not to impose anything on them.

@AFlameOfFire My wife's a lawyer and actually the sort of thing that you are saying does rather closely reflect the kind of training that barristers have.

It's good for Bible study to compare Scripture with Scripture, bearing in mind passage contexts and Old and New Testament dispenational backgrounds, etc.

[farouk]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Okay.    You see both passages pertaining to born-again children of God (who may loose the free gift of justification given to them by the purchase of Christ's blood) - is that accurate?  I see this as pertaining to two groups - believers & unbelievers (aka sons of disobedience).

I agree that it's two distinct groups of ppl...........

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

4 minutes ago, farouk said:

@AFlameOfFire My wife's a lawyer and actually the sort of thing that you are saying does rather closely reflect the kind of training that barristers have.

It's good for Bible study to compare Scripture with Scripture, bearing in mind passage contexts and Old and New Testament dispenational backgrounds, etc.

No training here I am dumb as rocks. I had never heard of barristers before,  its just cross checking myself into oblivion is what I call it . Being kind of nuts about spreading error concerning the Lord or just the plain shameful mishandling of the word of God.  So I can drive people nuts with tons of verses or repeating verses to drive something home, I am very very slow to "get things" so its a practice to help hit something home "for myself" really.

Great for bible study I agree

[Marathoner]

35 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

No training here I am dumb as rocks. I had never heard of barristers before,  its just cross checking myself into oblivion is what I call it . Being kind of nuts about spreading error concerning the Lord or just the plain shameful mishandling of the word of God.  So I can drive people nuts with tons of verses or repeating verses to drive something home, I am very very slow to "get things" so its a practice to help hit something home "for myself" really.

Great for bible study I agree

You're not dumb as rocks. 

As for training? Just like His work in us it's one step at a time, one day at a time, through trials and suffering. I suppose I was dumb as rocks when the Lord called me a long time ago.

Now? I guess you could say that I'm as sharp as a bag of wet mice. 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

19 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

You're not dumb as rocks. 

As for training? Just like His work in us it's one step at a time, one day at a time, through trials and suffering. I suppose I was dumb as rocks when the Lord called me a long time ago.

Now? I guess you could say that I'm as sharp as a bag of wet mice. 

I have never in my life heard of that expression before Marathoner, too funny.

You are creative haha

[Marathoner]

19 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I have never in my life heard of that expression before Marathoner, too funny.

You are creative haha

I can't take credit for that one. It's part of a "Foghorn Leghorn" quote from an old Looney Toons cartoon. I heard it, laughed and laughed about it, and it stuck. 

[Snow]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:52 PM, Snow said:

Sorry more info :).. The enemy tries to complicate the sacrifice and the curse and separation of Jesus from God . he gets in our head.. Just accept the free gift and the agape love and if you truly have this born again experience then you will be with God for ever.. Dont let the enemy make you think otherwise ..think of others now .. JOY .. Jesus forst .. Others second.. Yourself last.. Live the life of victory..

Hi Sower.. I dont think i am complicating things.. Yes i am sure i am saved.. God lives me more than i love Him.. It is evident by the sacrifice of Hos only Son and the separation of them.. God bless you

[Retrobyter]

Quote

 

What do make of the following passage?

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:  he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."  1John 2:3-6

 

It says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments don't know him, are liars and the truth is not in them.  It also says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments are not "in him".   In short, those who don't keep Christ's commandments are not saved.

 

Shalom, Buzzard3.

The same verses are found this way in the King James Version:

1 John 2:3-6 (KJV)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

There's a BIG difference between "keeping not His commandments" and "disobeying His commandments."

There's also a HUGE difference between "the love FOR God" and "the love OF God." They are NOT synonymous!

Let's look at the Greek of the passage:

1 John 2:3-6 (Scrivener's TR 1894)

3 Καὶ ἐν τούτῳ γινώσκομεν ὅτι ἐγνώκαμεν αὐτόν, ἐὰν τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ τηρῶμεν. 4 ὁ λέγων Ἔγνωκα αὐτόν, καὶ τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ μὴ τηρῶν, ψεύστης ἐστί, καὶ ἐν τούτῳ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν· 5 ὃς δ’ ἂν τηρῇ αὐτοῦ τὸν λόγον, ἀληθῶς ἐν τούτῳ ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ τετελείωται. ἐν τούτῳ γινώσκομεν ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐσμεν· 6 ὁ λέγων ἐν αὐτῷ μένειν ὀφείλει, καθὼς ἐκεῖνος περιεπάτησε, καὶ αὐτὸς οὕτω περιπατεῖν.

This transliterates to ...

3 Kai en toutoo ginooskomen hoti egnookamen auton, ean tas entolas autou teeroomen. 4 Ho legoon Egnooka auton, kai tas entolas autou mee teeroon, pseustees esti, kai en toutoo hee aleetheia ouk estin; 5 hos d' an teeree autou ton logon, aleethoos en toutoo hee agapee tou Theou teteleiootai. En toutoo ginooskomen hoti en autoo esmen; 6 ho legoon en autoo menein ofeilei, kathoos ekeinos periepateese, kai autos houtoo peripatein.

And, this is translated word-for-word as ...

3 And in this we-know that we-have-come-to-know Him, if the commandments of-Him we-should-keep. 4 The-one saying that I-have-known Him, and the commandments of-Him not keeping, a-liar he-is, and in him the truth not is; 5 however,<-> whoever may-keep of-Him the word, truly in him the love of-the God has-been-perfected. In this we-know that in Him we-are; 6 the-one saying/claiming in Him to-abide 0wes, just-as that-one walked, also He in-the-same-way to-walk.

Now, the "love OF the God" is "God's LOVE!" And, he is saying "truly in him God's love has been matured." It's not about "our love FOR God." The reason for this is found in what His commandments are that we should keep:

1 John 3:23-24 (KJV)

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Of course, this goes back to John's Gospel:

John 15:9-17 (KJV)

9 "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord (master) doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another."

In other Gospels, we're told that Yeeshuwa` gave two Laws for the summary of all others:

Matthew 22:34-40 (KJV)

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 

36 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?"

37 Jesus said unto him,

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

However, you need to understand that we don't keep these laws to be justified by God; we keep these laws BECAUSE we are justified by God! They are the natural OUTFLOW of our lives with the Holy Spirit of God residing within us!

Galatians 2:15-21 (KJV)

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain!

Romans 3:21-28 (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside of) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT (OUTSIDE OF) THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.

Ephesians 2:1-10 (KJV)

1 And you (Ephesian Gentiles) hath he quickened (made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation (lifestyle) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are HIS workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Even Ya`aqoV ("James") talked about this!

James 2:14-26 (KJV)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them,

"Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled";

notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say,

"Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith BY my works."

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain (useless) man, that faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect (mature; complete)? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,

"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness":

and he was called "the Friend of God." 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

These verses that you think prove that one must do good works or deeds to be justified don't actually say that! They are really saying that the faith one CLAIMS to have is DEMONSTRATED by the good deeds one performs! Without the deeds as evidence to back up one's claim that "I am justified by faith," they're just EMPTY WORDS!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

Everyone who has ever lived or will ever live is justified by the Cross, bcoz that justification is unconditional.  Even the worst God-denying atheist and the most evil Satan-worshpper is thus justified - even if they don't want to be. 

The Cross made it possible for everyone to be saved ... but not everyone will be saved, bcoz salvation requires a further justification which is conditional - ie, by faith and works (James 2:24).  

The justication provided by Cross opened the door to salvation, but not everyone chooses to walk through that door.  Walking through that door can only be done by accepting the gift of faith and abiding in Christ by being justified by faith and works.

Shabbat shalom, Buzzard3.

Sorry, but this is NOT true. God doesn't give out His justification to just anyone! There will be MANY who are raised to life as the "UNJUST" who will stand before the Great White Throne to give answer for their deeds at their judgment trial.

The cross made it POSSIBLE for anyone to be JUSTIFIED BY GOD, but one must come to Him by FAITH! James 2 does NOT negate Ephesians 2 or Galatians 2 or Romans 3-5 or Hebrews 10! In fact, it ESTABLISHES these other chapters! The works come AFTER the faith, and James says that these works are PROOF of the faith! Not just anyone is DECLARED to be "righteousness." That only happens to one who has made the Messiah His sacrifice for sin! And, that is what must happen FIRST before one is JUSTIFIED BY GOD!

Isaiah 53:6-11 (KJV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: WHEN THOU SHALT MAKE HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He (God the Father) shall see of the travail of his (the Messiah's) soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

"Many," but not "all!"

Verse 6b, "the LORD (God the Father) hath laid on him (the Messiah, the Son of God) the iniquity of us all," is only HALF of what was  needed to be done for the exchange of 2 Corinthians 5:21 to be complete!

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (the Messiah, the Son of God) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; THAT we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Yeeshuwa' ("Jesus") being made to be SIN for us is only HALF of what is necessary to be JUSTIFIED BY GOD. The other HALF is for us to be made THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. That doesn't happen until we make His air-breathing body an offering for OUR sin! We not only TRUST that He died for us, but we make Him OUR Sacrifice for sin! THEN, He puts His Holy Spirit in us and we become a new creation, old things have passed away, look! all things have become new, and NOW we do good works as EVIDENCE of what has happened to us!

[Buzzard3]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

  I see this as pertaining to two groups - believers & unbelievers (aka sons of disobedience).

Wait ... you think "disobedience" in this passage refers to unbelief? 

"Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:5-6).