WWIII. Is This It?

[Shilohsfoal]

43 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The "coming of Jesus" is technical for the Second Advent, when He returns to earth to reign in His Millennial Kingdom.  We know this from several verses.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse proves that all believers, from Adam forward, will be resurrected at the Second Advent.

How do we know that 1 Cor 15:23 refers to the Second Advent?

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This is obviously about resurrection and is clearly described as "a second time".  We know His first time was as a baby, the First Advent.  

So these 2 verses plainly teach the resurrection of all believers will be at the Second Advent, when Jesus appears a second time.

Did Paul know there would be more than one resurection?One taking place at the beginning of the millinium and a other at the end?

Or did Paul see only in part and not the whole picture?I'm not all that sure Paul knew of two separate resurrections because I can't seem to find where he spoke of two .

Edited November 8, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Did Paul know there would be more than one resurection?One taking place at the beginning of the millinium and a other at the end?

Yes, he did.  Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Also, Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 both speak of a resurrection for each.  But, there will be only one resurrection for the saved.  The resurrection at the end of the MK is for "the wicked" meaning unsaved.  When they are cast into the LOF after the GWT judgment, their still mortal resurrected physical body will die AGAIN, which is why the LOF is also called the "second death".

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Or did Paul see only in part and not the whole picture?I'm not all that sure Paul knew of two separate resurrections because I can't seem to find where he spoke of two .

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  3 different people all talking about 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

[Shilohsfoal]

51 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, he did.  Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Also, Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 both speak of a resurrection for each.  But, there will be only one resurrection for the saved.  The resurrection at the end of the MK is for "the wicked" meaning unsaved.  When they are cast into the LOF after the GWT judgment, their still mortal resurrected physical body will die AGAIN, which is why the LOF is also called the "second death".

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  3 different people all talking about 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

The resurrection in dan 12 consists of both The righteous and the wicked taking place at the same time.Daniel wrote" at that time"and he also wrote about" his people".No mention of other people's."Daniels people"in Daniel 12:1 is who I understand to be Israel which is resurected in Ezekiel 37.

 

 

No mention of the resurection 1000 years after that time and no where does it say that everyone resurected after the 1000 years are all wicked.What would be the purpose of opening the book of life of you already know no one's names are written in it?

 

¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The resurrection in dan 12 consists of both The righteous and the wicked taking place at the same time.Daniel wrote" at that time"and he also wrote about" his people".No mention of other people's."Daniels people"in Daniel 12:1 is who I understand to be Israel which is resurected in Ezekiel 37.

If that were true, then Rev 20:4-6 cannot be true.  In that text, the 2 resurrections are 1,000 years apart.  The first one will be associated with Bema and the second one with the GWT judgment.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

No mention of the resurection 1000 years after that time and no where does it say that everyone resurected after the 1000 years are all wicked.What would be the purpose of opening the book of life of you already know no one's names are written in it?

Read Rev 20:1-10 for the whole picture about the MK and where the 2 resurrections are.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 

¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the resurrection/judgment of all unbelievers.

[WilliamL]

On 11/7/2023 at 2:40 AM, Diaste said:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come"

References the the time of the end. There are more than 70 nations now.

In the modern sense of the word nation, there are more than seventy. But in the biblical meaning of the word, there are not.

For example, there are a number of different nations/countries that are predominantly Arabic, but there is only one Arabic ethnos/nation.

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If that were true, then Rev 20:4-6 cannot be true.  In that text, the 2 resurrections are 1,000 years apart.  The first one will be associated with Bema and the second one with the GWT judgment.

Read Rev 20:1-10 for the whole picture about the MK and where the 2 resurrections are.

This is the resurrection/judgment of all unbelievers.

Yes,it can still be true but it depends how you look at it.

The resurrection in revelation 20:4-6 is the resurection of Israel.As Daniel was told his people.

Daniel 12:1-2

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

 

Daniel 12:1-2 is about Daniels people.

 

 

You also need to keep in mind ,I understand the beast which the resurected saints in revelation 20:4 do not worship or relieve its mark is the Israeli government.So these are people from Israel who are mentioned in revelation 20:4.They are not from the nations outside Israel.

[Shilohsfoal]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If that were true, then Rev 20:4-6 cannot be true.  In that text, the 2 resurrections are 1,000 years apart.  The first one will be associated with Bema and the second one with the GWT judgment.

Read Rev 20:1-10 for the whole picture about the MK and where the 2 resurrections are.

This is the resurrection/judgment of all unbelievers.

 

I understand revelation 20:4 to be the literal fulfillment of the promise God made specifically to Jacobs descendents.(the children of Israel).

 

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

Exodus 19

⁵ Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

⁶ And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

 

As I see it,I don't live in Israel so I can't overcome the beast that I'm never confronted with.But the saints in Israel are confronted with the beast.

I can't be one of the resurected saints in revelation 20:4 because I don't have to deal with the beast that is the Israeli government .All those who do not worship the beast in revelation 20:4 are Israelis who have overcome.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Yes,it can still be true but it depends how you look at it.

Only 2 options;  literal or metaphorical.

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The resurrection in revelation 20:4-6 is the resurection of Israel.As Daniel was told his people.

No, that resurrection is the same one as noted in 1 Cor 15:23.  The Bible ONLY speaks of resurrection in the singular, even though there is one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  Therefore, it is singular for each category.  

And 1 Cor 15:23 is clearly the ONE for the saved, or "those who belong to Him".

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Daniel 12:1-2

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:1-2 is about Daniels people.

Sure, v.1 is.  But v.2 is obviously a general statement about the fact that there will A resurrection for the saved and A resurrection for the unsaved.

Which John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 also say just as clearly.

There is nothing about a resurrection for JUST Jews.  

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You also need to keep in mind ,I understand the beast which the resurected saints in revelation 20:4 do not worship or relieve its mark is the Israeli government

That is detail that isn't necessary to understand the resurrections and when they occur.

2 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So these are people from Israel who are mentioned in revelation 20:4.They are not from the nations outside Israel.

No, they are simply those who were believers who were martyred during the Tribulation.  There is nothing in that chapter about "Jews only".

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I understand revelation 20:4 to be the literal fulfillment of the promise God made specifically to Jacobs descendents.(the children of Israel).

But there is nothing in the text to support that narrow view.  We know from 1 Cor 15:23 that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent, which perfectly fits the context of Rev 20:4-6.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I see "souls beheaded for the witness of Jesus", but no mention of Jew only.  These are martyrs, regardless of ethnicity.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Exodus 19

⁵ Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

⁶ And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

This is Exodus.  The people of Israel had left Egypt.  That is what Moses was told to tell the "people".  This doesn't support your view of "Jew only" in Rev 20.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

As I see it,I don't live in Israel so I can't overcome the beast that I'm never confronted with.But the saints in Israel are confronted with the beast.

Every believer who stands for Jesus and against the beast's evil empire and is martyred will OVERCOME the beast.  Overcoming the beast isn't a Jew only thing.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I can't be one of the resurected saints in revelation 20:4 because I don't have to deal with the beast that is the Israeli government .All those who do not worship the beast in revelation 20:4 are Israelis who have overcome.

Just because John only mentioned martyrs doesn't mean that's all who are resurrected at the Second Advent.

Your view repeatedly ignores or discounts 1 Cor 15:23.  This verse is KEY to resurrection.  ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

Heb 9:28 proves this is the Second Advent.   "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Every mention of the "coming of Christ' is a reference to the Second Advent.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Only 2 options;  literal or metaphorical.

No, that resurrection is the same one as noted in 1 Cor 15:23.  The Bible ONLY speaks of resurrection in the singular, even though there is one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  Therefore, it is singular for each category.  

And 1 Cor 15:23 is clearly the ONE for the saved, or "those who belong to Him".

Sure, v.1 is.  But v.2 is obviously a general statement about the fact that there will A resurrection for the saved and A resurrection for the unsaved.

Which John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 also say just as clearly.

There is nothing about a resurrection for JUST Jews.  

That is detail that isn't necessary to understand the resurrections and when they occur.

No, they are simply those who were believers who were martyred during the Tribulation.  There is nothing in that chapter about "Jews only".

As I said.I understand the beast which the saints in revelation 20:4 do not worship or recieve it's mark is the Israeli government and all those resurected saints in revelation 20:4 are all Israelis.

 

Revelation 20:6 is the literal fulfillment of the promise God made to the descendents of Jacob.The children of Israel.

Revelation 20:

⁶ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

 

Exodus 19

⁵ Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

⁶ And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.