The deepening of one’s discerning….

[Retrobyter]

46 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Apparently the term "spiritual" applies to someone with an extremely swelled head regarding their personal religious point of view.

One does not have to have an education to be 'spiritual' in this way.  Indeed one doesn't even have to have completed grade 1 of formal education to be considered 'spiritual'.  All one has to do is confess that they learn the things of God via OSMOSIS - a learning process which is denied by Grade 3 in most schools.

Nevertheless, evangelicals claim to have this gnostic sort of illumination operating upon them.   They also claim that a person who is not on the same wifi spiritual frequency as they are is also said to NOT be a Christian and NOT familiar with either the Bible, the gospel of Jesus Christ or the local Pizza Hut menu.

These are perfect examples of WHY the rest of the world considers post-modern Christianity  a JOKE.  

The almost total lack of knowledge and education by Christians is a scandal upon the church.  What happened to 2 Tim 2:15?  Nobody pays attention to it.....perhaps because they don't know how to READ or THINK. ("It hurts to think," their children cry to their teachers.  I know because I've been told by the teachers.)

Ours is a comic book, video generation that cannot and will not participate in anything remotely approaching a logical documented discussion about religious or political matters.   The almost total lack of understanding and willingness to understand is mind-boggling.

"You have to work hard to be that stupid." (John Wayne)

Consequently the church as it has been known is rapidly shrinking into a non-entity with those who still attend involving themselves in a sort of ignorant redneck social club masquerading as a church.  

Legitimate statistical polling organizations predict the church will shrink to 10% of 1948 levels by the year 2050.   We've already shrunk to between 35% & 40% right now. Personally I think it will reach the 10% level long before mid-century.   We're circling the drain very quickly.

Do you know about the prophecies of apostasy in the End Times?  Well we're there right now, buddy.  We're in it up to our necks and denying it won't reverse the trend.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Shalom, choir loft.

I'm with you, bro'. I like John Wayne too, especially in his role as George Washinton McLintock. My favorite line was something like, "I almost shot you a few years back; saddens me I didn't."

Edited November 29, 2023 by Retrobyter
to fix a spelling and a quote

[Not me]

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Not me.

Really? How does that fit with the Greek word "pneumatikos" which was translated as "spiritual?"

If it doesn’t find a place in you, ignore what I write and continue feeding your relationship with Christ and you most certainly will get your ‘well done’…

Many blessings before Him, Not me 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Not me said:

If it doesn’t find a place in you, ignore what I write and continue feeding your relationship with Christ and you most certainly will get your ‘well done’…

Many blessings before Him, Not me 

Shalom, Not me.

Well, I've got to say, you're a master at the side-step.

People use the word "spiritual" like most use the word "Christian." They BOTH are so nebulous and generalistic, that they have NO MEANING in reality! Ask most, "What is a Christian?" and one will get all KINDS of answers. everything from Russian Orthodox and Catholicism to Seventh Day Adventists! One or two might be worth their salt, but most are so ridiculously general as to be misleading at best and deceitful at worst!

Ask a person what they mean by "spiritual," and one will get ALL SORTS of answers! Everything from a "deep understanding of Christ's heart" to "the occult" are the varied responses given! A "spiritual" view can even be how one perceives his or her horoscope!

I'm sorry to be the "bubble-burster," but the word "spiritual" is NOT so abused (which means "abnormally used") in the Bible.

Here are the verses in the New Testament that actually use the word:

Romans 1:11; 7:14; 15:27; 1 Corinthians 2:13, 15; 3:1; 9:11; 10:3, 4; 12:1; 14:1, 37; 15:44, 46; Galatians 6:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; 6:12; Colossians 1:9; 3:16; and 1 Peter 2:5.

Just 21 verses! THAT'S IT! So, just how much philosophy was built around these verses? And, if the word is not defined for you within the text, then it's anyone's guess what the word means!

BUT, there are CONTEXTUAL CLUES in 1 Corinthians 15:44, 46 that can help determine what the word meant to the Apostle Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory (brightness) of the celestial is one, and the glory (brightness) of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Now, let's think about this much for a bit: The seed must die in the ground in order for it to be brought back to life. It goes into the ground as a seed, it might be wheat seed, rice seed, rye seed, oats, or some other kind of seed, but then God gives it a body as it pleases Him when the seed grows into a plant, breaking through the ground.

Then, he talked about the different kinds of flesh - muscles - meat that each animal has. He lists four different kinds: men, beasts, fishes, and birds (beef, fish, poultry). Then, he said that there were also different types of bodies: terrestrial (men, beast, fish, bird) and bodies celestial (sun, moon, stars) and these differ by BRIGHTNESS! Here, he named them "terrestrial" (Greek: epigeias = "above the ground") and "celestrial" (Greek: epouranious = "above the sky"). People and animals give off infrared light - heat - making it possible to see them at night with night-vision cameras and goggles. Of course, the sun, the moon, and the stars give off visible light rays that give the earth light and heat.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Now, let's continue:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body.

There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body. 45 And so it is written,

"The (first) man [Adam] was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is SPIRITUAL, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, let's look at the Greek of this last passage (from verse 42 to 49):

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 15:42-49 (Schrivener's TR 1894)

42 οὕτω καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν.

σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ· 
43 σπείρεται ἐν ἀτιμίᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δόξῃ·
σπείρεται ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δυνάμει· 
44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν.

[Ei] ἔστι σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστι σῶμα πνευματικόν. 

45 οὕτω καὶ γέγραπται,

Ἐγένετο ὁ (πρῶτος) ἄνθρωπος [Ἀδὰμ] εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν. (Genesis 2:7)

ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν. 46 ἀλλ’ οὐ πρῶτον τὸ πνευματικὸν, ἀλλὰ τὸ ψυχικόν, ἔπειτα τὸ πνευματικόν. 47 ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ὁ Κύριος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ. 48 οἷος ὁ χοϊκός· τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ χοϊκοί, καὶ οἷος ὁ ἐπουράνιος, τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ ἐπουράνιοι· 49 καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου.

This transliterates to ...

Pros Korinthious A' 15:42-49

42 Houtoo kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.

speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia;
43 speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee;
speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei;
44 speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.

Esti sooma psuchikon, kai esti sooma pneumatikon.

45 Houtoo kai gegraptai,

Egeneto ho (prootos) anthroopos [Adam] eis psucheen zoosan. (Genesis 2:7)

Ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun. 46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon, alla to psuchikon, epeita to pneumatikon. 47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos ho deuteros anthroopos ho Kurios ex ouranou. 48 Hoios ho choikos; toioutoi kai hoi choikoi, kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi; 49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou, foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.

Translated word-for-word, we get ...

For Korinthians A 15:42-49

42 In-this-way also the resurrection of-the dead-ones.

it-is-sown in decay, it-is-raised in incorruptibility;
43 it-is-sown in infamy, it-is-raised in brightness/fame;
it-is-sown in weakness, it-is-raised in power;
44 it-is-sown a-body breathing-air, it-is-raised a-body blasting-air.

[If] There-is a-body breathing-air, and/[also] there-is a-body blasting-air.

45 In-this-way also it-is-written,

Became the (first) man [Adam] into an air-breathing-creature living. (Genesis 2:7)

The last Adam into a-wind life-giving. 46 But not first the [one]-blasting-air, but the [one]-breathing-air. afterward the [one]-blasting-air. 47 The first man out of-earth made-of-dust; the second man the Lord out-of-sky. 48 Like the-[one] made-of-dust, so also the-[ones] made-of-dust, and like the-[one] from-above-the-sky, so also the-[ones] from-above-the-sky; 49 and like we-have-carried the image/likeness of-[that]-made-of-dust, we-shall-carry also the-image/likeness of-the-[one] from-above-the-sky.

1 Corinthians 15 is A STUDY IN CONTRASTS! Some of the words in comparison within the Greek language are ...

soomata epourania/soomata epigeia = bodies above-the-sky/bodies upon-the-earth
speiretai/egeiretai = it-is-sown/it-is-raised
fthora/aftharsia = decay/incorruptibility
atimia/doxee = erased-from-memory/fame-brightness-standing-out
astheneia/dunamei = weakness/power
sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon = a-body breathing-air/a-body blasting-air
psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun = an-air-breathing-creature living/a-wind (an-air-blowing-creature) life-giving
ho prootos Adam/ho eschatos Adam = the first Adam/the last Adam
ho prootos anthroopos/ho deuteros anthroopos = the first man/the second man
psucheen/pneuma = a-breathing-creature/a-blasting-creature (a-wind)
zoosan/zoo-opoioun = living/life-giving
ho choikos/ho epouranios = the-[one] made-of-dust/the-[One] from-above-the-sky
eikona tou choikou/eikona tou epouraniou = image of-the-[one] made-of-dust/image of-the-[One] from-above-the-sky

and there are more!

Continuing on ...

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, if one doesn't realize it right away, there's a seeming contradiction in verse 50 with other parts of the Scriptures. First, don't you think that the MESSIAH HIMSELF will certainly inherit the Kingdom of God? After all, He's to be its KING for a thousand years!

BUT, we have this statement, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This does NOT mean that it is "in Heaven!" To the contrary, the Messiah said, 

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:..." (Matthew 25:31)

and in a parable about Himself, He said,

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade [with this]) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading."

Now, here's the apparent contradiction: Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") the Messiah said to His disciples AFTER His Resurrection,

Luke 24:38-43 (KJV)

38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them hishands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

So, not only doesn't He reign until AFTER He has returned, but He said that He has "flesh and bones!" He was PHYSICAL after His Resurrection!

So, how do we rectify these verses?

How can Paul be right in 1 Corinthians 15:50? I believe that the SECOND HALF of the verse is the key: "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Paul's point was that a person could not hope to inherit the Kingdom of God without being RESURRECTED as Yeeshuwa` was! He couldn't just be a "living air-breathing creature"; he would have to be a "LIFE-GIVING AIR-BLASTING CREATURE!" He would have to be a new, Resurrected SUPERHUMAN body!

Spirtual/physical is NOT one of the contrasts in 1 Corinthians 15! Rather, BOTH bodies, "sooma psuchikon" and "sooma pneumatikon," are PHYSICAL, it's just that the "sooma pneumatikon" is also INCORRUPTIBLE!

What did Yeeshuwa` say in the Beatitudes?

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5) THAT'S where His Kingdom will be!

[Not me]

49 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Not me.

Well, I've got to say, you're a master at the side-step.

People use the word "spiritual" like most use the word "Christian." They BOTH are so nebulous and generalistic, that they have NO MEANING in reality! Ask most, "What is a Christian?" and one will get all KINDS of answers. everything from Russian Orthodox and Catholicism to Seventh Day Adventists! One or two might be worth their salt, but most are so ridiculously general as to be misleading at best and deceitful at worst!

Ask a person what they mean by "spiritual," and one will get ALL SORTS of answers! Everything from a "deep understanding of Christ's heart" to "the occult" are the varied responses given! A "spiritual" view can even be how one perceives his or her horoscope!

I'm sorry to be the "bubble-burster," but the word "spiritual" is NOT so abused (which means "abnormally used") in the Bible.

Here are the verses in the New Testament that actually use the word:

Romans 1:11; 7:14; 15:27; 1 Corinthians 2:13, 15; 3:1; 9:11; 10:3, 4; 12:1; 14:1, 37; 15:44, 46; Galatians 6:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; 6:12; Colossians 1:9; 3:16; and 1 Peter 2:5.

Just 21 verses! THAT'S IT! So, just how much philosophy was built around these verses? And, if the word is not defined for you within the text, then it's anyone's guess what the word means!

BUT, there are CONTEXTUAL CLUES in 1 Corinthians 15:44, 46 that can help determine what the word meant to the Apostle Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory (brightness) of the celestial is one, and the glory (brightness) of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Now, let's think about this much for a bit: The seed must die in the ground in order for it to be brought back to life. It goes into the ground as a seed, it might be wheat seed, rice seed, rye seed, oats, or some other kind of seed, but then God gives it a body as it pleases Him when the seed grows into a plant, breaking through the ground.

Then, he talked about the different kinds of flesh - muscles - meat that each animal has. He lists four different kinds: men, beasts, fishes, and birds (beef, fish, poultry). Then, he said that there were also different types of bodies: terrestrial (men, beast, fish, bird) and bodies celestial (sun, moon, stars) and these differ by BRIGHTNESS! Here, he named them "terrestrial" (Greek: epigeias = "above the ground") and "celestrial" (Greek: epouranious = "above the sky"). People and animals give off infrared light - heat - making it possible to see them at night with night-vision cameras and goggles. Of course, the sun, the moon, and the stars give off visible light rays that give the earth light and heat.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Now, let's continue:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body.

There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body. 45 And so it is written,

"The (first) man [Adam] was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is SPIRITUAL, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, let's look at the Greek of this last passage (from verse 42 to 49):

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 15:42-49 (Schrivener's TR 1894)

42 οὕτω καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν.

σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ· 
43 σπείρεται ἐν ἀτιμίᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δόξῃ·
σπείρεται ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δυνάμει· 
44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν.

[Ei] ἔστι σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστι σῶμα πνευματικόν. 

45 οὕτω καὶ γέγραπται,

Ἐγένετο ὁ (πρῶτος) ἄνθρωπος [Ἀδὰμ] εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν. (Genesis 2:7)

ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν. 46 ἀλλ’ οὐ πρῶτον τὸ πνευματικὸν, ἀλλὰ τὸ ψυχικόν, ἔπειτα τὸ πνευματικόν. 47 ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ὁ Κύριος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ. 48 οἷος ὁ χοϊκός· τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ χοϊκοί, καὶ οἷος ὁ ἐπουράνιος, τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ ἐπουράνιοι· 49 καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου.

This transliterates to ...

Pros Korinthious A' 15:42-49

42 Houtoo kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.

speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia;
43 speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee;
speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei;
44 speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.

Esti sooma psuchikon, kai esti sooma pneumatikon.

45 Houtoo kai gegraptai,

Egeneto ho (prootos) anthroopos [Adam] eis psucheen zoosan. (Genesis 2:7)

Ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun. 46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon, alla to psuchikon, epeita to pneumatikon. 47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos ho deuteros anthroopos ho Kurios ex ouranou. 48 Hoios ho choikos; toioutoi kai hoi choikoi, kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi; 49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou, foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.

Translated word-for-word, we get ...

For Korinthians A 15:42-49

42 In-this-way also the resurrection of-the dead-ones.

it-is-sown in decay, it-is-raised in incorruptibility;
43 it-is-sown in infamy, it-is-raised in brightness/fame;
it-is-sown in weakness, it-is-raised in power;
44 it-is-sown a-body breathing-air, it-is-raised a-body blasting-air.

[If] There-is a-body breathing-air, and/[also] there-is a-body blasting-air.

45 In-this-way also it-is-written,

Became the (first) man [Adam] into an air-breathing-creature living. (Genesis 2:7)

The last Adam into a-wind life-giving. 46 But not first the [one]-blasting-air, but the [one]-breathing-air. afterward the [one]-blasting-air. 47 The first man out of-earth made-of-dust; the second man the Lord out-of-sky. 48 Like the-[one] made-of-dust, so also the-[ones] made-of-dust, and like the-[one] from-above-the-sky, so also the-[ones] from-above-the-sky; 49 and like we-have-carried the image/likeness of-[that]-made-of-dust, we-shall-carry also the-image/likeness of-the-[one] from-above-the-sky.

1 Corinthians 15 is A STUDY IN CONTRASTS! Some of the words in comparison within the Greek language are ...

soomata epourania/soomata epigeia = bodies above-the-sky/bodies upon-the-earth
speiretai/egeiretai = it-is-sown/it-is-raised
fthora/aftharsia = decay/incorruptibility
atimia/doxee = erased-from-memory/fame-brightness-standing-out
astheneia/dunamei = weakness/power
sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon = a-body breathing-air/a-body blasting-air
psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun = an-air-breathing-creature living/a-wind (an-air-blowing-creature) life-giving
ho prootos Adam/ho eschatos Adam = the first Adam/the last Adam
ho prootos anthroopos/ho deuteros anthroopos = the first man/the second man
psucheen/pneuma = a-breathing-creature/a-blasting-creature (a-wind)
zoosan/zoo-opoioun = living/life-giving
ho choikos/ho epouranios = the-[one] made-of-dust/the-[One] from-above-the-sky
eikona tou choikou/eikona tou epouraniou = image of-the-[one] made-of-dust/image of-the-[One] from-above-the-sky

and there are more!

Continuing on ...

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, if one doesn't realize it right away, there's a seeming contradiction in verse 50 with other parts of the Scriptures. First, don't you think that the MESSIAH HIMSELF will certainly inherit the Kingdom of God? After all, He's to be its KING for a thousand years!

BUT, we have this statement, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This does NOT mean that it is "in Heaven!" To the contrary, the Messiah said, 

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:..." (Matthew 25:31)

and in a parable about Himself, He said,

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade [with this]) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading."

Now, here's the apparent contradiction: Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") the Messiah said to His disciples AFTER His Resurrection,

Luke 24:38-43 (KJV)

38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them hishands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

So, not only doesn't He reign until AFTER He has returned, but He said that He has "flesh and bones!" He was PHYSICAL after His Resurrection!

So, how do we rectify these verses?

How can Paul be right in 1 Corinthians 15:50? I believe that the SECOND HALF of the verse is the key: "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Paul's point was that a person could not hope to inherit the Kingdom of God without being RESURRECTED as Yeeshuwa` was! He couldn't just be a "living air-breathing creature"; he would have to be a "LIFE-GIVING AIR-BLASTING CREATURE!" He would have to be a new, Resurrected SUPERHUMAN body!

Spirtual/physical is NOT one of the contrasts in 1 Corinthians 15! Rather, BOTH bodies, "sooma psuchikon" and "sooma pneumatikon," are PHYSICAL, it's just that the "sooma pneumatikon" is also INCORRUPTIBLE!

What did Yeeshuwa` say in the Beatitudes?

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5) THAT'S where His Kingdom will be!

As we learn of Him, blessings….

Not me 

[choir loft]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:27 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Not me.

Well, I've got to say, you're a master at the side-step.

People use the word "spiritual" like most use the word "Christian." They BOTH are so nebulous and generalistic, that they have NO MEANING in reality! Ask most, "What is a Christian?" and one will get all KINDS of answers. everything from Russian Orthodox and Catholicism to Seventh Day Adventists! One or two might be worth their salt, but most are so ridiculously general as to be misleading at best and deceitful at worst!

Ask a person what they mean by "spiritual," and one will get ALL SORTS of answers! Everything from a "deep understanding of Christ's heart" to "the occult" are the varied responses given! A "spiritual" view can even be how one perceives his or her horoscope!

I'm sorry to be the "bubble-burster," but the word "spiritual" is NOT so abused (which means "abnormally used") in the Bible.

Here are the verses in the New Testament that actually use the word:

Romans 1:11; 7:14; 15:27; 1 Corinthians 2:13, 15; 3:1; 9:11; 10:3, 4; 12:1; 14:1, 37; 15:44, 46; Galatians 6:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; 6:12; Colossians 1:9; 3:16; and 1 Peter 2:5.

Just 21 verses! THAT'S IT! So, just how much philosophy was built around these verses? And, if the word is not defined for you within the text, then it's anyone's guess what the word means!

BUT, there are CONTEXTUAL CLUES in 1 Corinthians 15:44, 46 that can help determine what the word meant to the Apostle Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory (brightness) of the celestial is one, and the glory (brightness) of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Now, let's think about this much for a bit: The seed must die in the ground in order for it to be brought back to life. It goes into the ground as a seed, it might be wheat seed, rice seed, rye seed, oats, or some other kind of seed, but then God gives it a body as it pleases Him when the seed grows into a plant, breaking through the ground.

Then, he talked about the different kinds of flesh - muscles - meat that each animal has. He lists four different kinds: men, beasts, fishes, and birds (beef, fish, poultry). Then, he said that there were also different types of bodies: terrestrial (men, beast, fish, bird) and bodies celestial (sun, moon, stars) and these differ by BRIGHTNESS! Here, he named them "terrestrial" (Greek: epigeias = "above the ground") and "celestrial" (Greek: epouranious = "above the sky"). People and animals give off infrared light - heat - making it possible to see them at night with night-vision cameras and goggles. Of course, the sun, the moon, and the stars give off visible light rays that give the earth light and heat.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Now, let's continue:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body.

There is a natural body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body. 45 And so it is written,

"The (first) man [Adam] was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is SPIRITUAL, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, let's look at the Greek of this last passage (from verse 42 to 49):

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 15:42-49 (Schrivener's TR 1894)

42 οὕτω καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν.

σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ· 
43 σπείρεται ἐν ἀτιμίᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δόξῃ·
σπείρεται ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δυνάμει· 
44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν.

[Ei] ἔστι σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστι σῶμα πνευματικόν. 

45 οὕτω καὶ γέγραπται,

Ἐγένετο ὁ (πρῶτος) ἄνθρωπος [Ἀδὰμ] εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν. (Genesis 2:7)

ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν. 46 ἀλλ’ οὐ πρῶτον τὸ πνευματικὸν, ἀλλὰ τὸ ψυχικόν, ἔπειτα τὸ πνευματικόν. 47 ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ὁ Κύριος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ. 48 οἷος ὁ χοϊκός· τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ χοϊκοί, καὶ οἷος ὁ ἐπουράνιος, τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ ἐπουράνιοι· 49 καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου.

This transliterates to ...

Pros Korinthious A' 15:42-49

42 Houtoo kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.

speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia;
43 speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee;
speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei;
44 speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.

Esti sooma psuchikon, kai esti sooma pneumatikon.

45 Houtoo kai gegraptai,

Egeneto ho (prootos) anthroopos [Adam] eis psucheen zoosan. (Genesis 2:7)

Ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun. 46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon, alla to psuchikon, epeita to pneumatikon. 47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos ho deuteros anthroopos ho Kurios ex ouranou. 48 Hoios ho choikos; toioutoi kai hoi choikoi, kai hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi; 49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou, foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.

Translated word-for-word, we get ...

For Korinthians A 15:42-49

42 In-this-way also the resurrection of-the dead-ones.

it-is-sown in decay, it-is-raised in incorruptibility;
43 it-is-sown in infamy, it-is-raised in brightness/fame;
it-is-sown in weakness, it-is-raised in power;
44 it-is-sown a-body breathing-air, it-is-raised a-body blasting-air.

[If] There-is a-body breathing-air, and/[also] there-is a-body blasting-air.

45 In-this-way also it-is-written,

Became the (first) man [Adam] into an air-breathing-creature living. (Genesis 2:7)

The last Adam into a-wind life-giving. 46 But not first the [one]-blasting-air, but the [one]-breathing-air. afterward the [one]-blasting-air. 47 The first man out of-earth made-of-dust; the second man the Lord out-of-sky. 48 Like the-[one] made-of-dust, so also the-[ones] made-of-dust, and like the-[one] from-above-the-sky, so also the-[ones] from-above-the-sky; 49 and like we-have-carried the image/likeness of-[that]-made-of-dust, we-shall-carry also the-image/likeness of-the-[one] from-above-the-sky.

1 Corinthians 15 is A STUDY IN CONTRASTS! Some of the words in comparison within the Greek language are ...

soomata epourania/soomata epigeia = bodies above-the-sky/bodies upon-the-earth
speiretai/egeiretai = it-is-sown/it-is-raised
fthora/aftharsia = decay/incorruptibility
atimia/doxee = erased-from-memory/fame-brightness-standing-out
astheneia/dunamei = weakness/power
sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon = a-body breathing-air/a-body blasting-air
psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun = an-air-breathing-creature living/a-wind (an-air-blowing-creature) life-giving
ho prootos Adam/ho eschatos Adam = the first Adam/the last Adam
ho prootos anthroopos/ho deuteros anthroopos = the first man/the second man
psucheen/pneuma = a-breathing-creature/a-blasting-creature (a-wind)
zoosan/zoo-opoioun = living/life-giving
ho choikos/ho epouranios = the-[one] made-of-dust/the-[One] from-above-the-sky
eikona tou choikou/eikona tou epouraniou = image of-the-[one] made-of-dust/image of-the-[One] from-above-the-sky

and there are more!

Continuing on ...

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, if one doesn't realize it right away, there's a seeming contradiction in verse 50 with other parts of the Scriptures. First, don't you think that the MESSIAH HIMSELF will certainly inherit the Kingdom of God? After all, He's to be its KING for a thousand years!

BUT, we have this statement, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This does NOT mean that it is "in Heaven!" To the contrary, the Messiah said, 

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:..." (Matthew 25:31)

and in a parable about Himself, He said,

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade [with this]) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading."

Now, here's the apparent contradiction: Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") the Messiah said to His disciples AFTER His Resurrection,

Luke 24:38-43 (KJV)

38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them hishands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

So, not only doesn't He reign until AFTER He has returned, but He said that He has "flesh and bones!" He was PHYSICAL after His Resurrection!

So, how do we rectify these verses?

How can Paul be right in 1 Corinthians 15:50? I believe that the SECOND HALF of the verse is the key: "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Paul's point was that a person could not hope to inherit the Kingdom of God without being RESURRECTED as Yeeshuwa` was! He couldn't just be a "living air-breathing creature"; he would have to be a "LIFE-GIVING AIR-BLASTING CREATURE!" He would have to be a new, Resurrected SUPERHUMAN body!

Spirtual/physical is NOT one of the contrasts in 1 Corinthians 15! Rather, BOTH bodies, "sooma psuchikon" and "sooma pneumatikon," are PHYSICAL, it's just that the "sooma pneumatikon" is also INCORRUPTIBLE!

What did Yeeshuwa` say in the Beatitudes?

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5) THAT'S where His Kingdom will be!

As a work of scholarly discussion you've done rather well.

But the problem isn't one of logic and documentation.  It's one of personal importance.   

One is said to be spiritual who is best able to "blow their own horn".

This applies to mega church pastors like Joel Osteen who have nothing at all to do with spirituality in the Biblical sense.  

It has to do with a mysterious gnostic form of OSMOSIS, which many who do not enjoy the discipline of study embrace.   Instead they choose the lazy part - and claim spirituality of a sort also demonstrated by those who dabble in VooDoo.

Your long definition and proofs of Biblical spirituality would be welcome in the pages of any scholarly work on the subject.  Unfortunately they do not describe the level of brain dead congregations that now fill our churches.   I say brain dead because their pastors don't encourage study.    Indeed I've been asked to leave some churches because I repeatedly requested a true Bible study - instead of motivational books and discussions which rarely even quote God's Word.

I recommend you save your post to a permanent personal file.  It could be useful some day for a more elaborate discussion of what church values ought to be....

Because they certainly aren't held to be important now......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...