The Body of Christ`s destiny - heaven or earth?

[George]

Shalom everyone,

This is a question that @AdHoc and @Marilyn C will be discussing?

I hope you enjoy the discourse.

God bless,

George

[AdHoc]

Preamble:

From Genesis 1:26-28 we gather that man was made to express God as the peak of His creation, and to replace the existing government. In Luke 4, the inspired record says that our Lord Jesus was tempted. If the kingdoms of the earth were not Satan's it would not have been a temptation and the Bible found wrong. It is my duty in a debate to let my opponent speak for him/herself, thus I will post only my contention.

My contention is that God made man from the earth, to be nourished from the earth and to DWELL on the earth. The rule of this universe comes from heaven, for heaven is God's throne (Ps.103:19, Isa.66:1). For the practical day to day administration of a city on earth the rule must come EITHER from heaven, or God must install heavenly rulers which exercise heavenly rule while DWELLING on earth. In this first posting I will establish that the Kingdom that God wants on earth is heavenly in nature but geographically on earth.

- Genesis 1:26.28 gives the rule of earth and its immediate environs of sea and sky, AND all that is in them
- Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 give the extent of the Kingdom that man s given - the earth with its animals
- To Abraham and his seed is given the Land of Canaan with its borders - land that Abraham could physically see
- To a king which God designated as gold, Daniel made a prediction that Gentile rule would be replaced by a Kingdom of God that was (1) everlasting and (2) would fill the EARTH (Dan.2:35)
- Abraham, having refused the spoils of war from men's hands and having refused a free burial field from men, is promised TWO kinds of seed, one to rule Canaan and one to rule the whole earth (Rom.4:13)
- Our Lord Jesus promised that anyone "FOUND WORTHY" would be granted kingship over a city, or cities (L.19:17-19)
- These same men, called Overcomers, will be granted to rule the NATIONS (Rev.2:27). The Nations dwell on earth.
- The Twelve Apostles, Christians, will sit on throne judging Israel (Matt.19:28). Israel's Land is on EARTH
- The meek are promised tat they will inherit the earth (Matt.5:5)
- The change of government in Revelation 11:15 is a kingdom "of this world"
- New Jerusalem, which rule in the ages to come (Rev.22:5) "comes down from heaven"
- God never changed His plan of Genesis 1:26-28
- Some men and women have been bodily taken to heaven. When the angels gather the "elect" after Jesus has returned, to earth people form as far as heaven will be collected back to earth (Matt.24:31)

I propose to the interested audience that the Kingdom of God, which will bring heavenly rule to earth (Matt.6:10), has a mound of evidence indicating that it IS ON EARTH.

The debate I enter into is that those who are found worthy to rule this kingdom ALSO DWELL ON EARTH during their reign. Our Lord Jesus, King of the Jews and King of Kings will live in Jerusalem (Zech.14:16). I propose that a king who is absent from his kingdom is a king in exile. And I propose that the absence of a king leaves a vacuum for another king. Christ, and the kings of cities will have their dwelling and their thrones in the cities they rule. That is ... ON EARTH.

[Marilyn C]

I would like to thank Ad Hoc for agreeing to this debate and appreciate George for setting it up. I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth as we look into His word.

 

Opening Statement.

My opening statement is to clarify which position I will be starting from.

`I believe God`s word tells us that the Body of Christ`s destiny is in heaven. This is the third heaven, as specifically delineated in God`s word, where Christ`s own throne will be, ruling with the Body of Christ, over all of God`s great kingdom under the Father. `

 

[Marilyn C]

God`s Great Kingdom.

 

Since we are talking about `heaven and earth,` I believe it is necessary to see what God`s word tells us of them.

`In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.` (Gen. 1: 1)

 

Here we note that God made `heavens,` plural.

 

1.Atmospheric heaven.

`And he (Elijah) prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.` (James 5: 18)

This heaven has the weather, and where the birds fly etc.

 

2.Celestial heaven.

`Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth.` (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

The sun, moon and stars are in this heaven.

 

3.The Third heaven.

`I (Paul) know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a one was caught up to the third heaven.` (2 Cor. 12: 2)

 This is the third heaven beyond the other two.

 

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

God`s Great Kingdom.

 

Since we are talking about `heaven and earth,` I believe it is necessary to see what God`s word tells us of them.

`In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.` (Gen. 1: 1)

 

Here we note that God made `heavens,` plural.

 

1.Atmospheric heaven.

`And he (Elijah) prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.` (James 5: 18)

This heaven has the weather, and where the birds fly etc.

 

2.Celestial heaven.

`Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth.` (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

The sun, moon and stars are in this heaven.

 

3.The Third heaven.

`I (Paul) know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a one was caught up to the third heaven.` (2 Cor. 12: 2)

 This is the third heaven beyond the other two.

 

There is no disagreement here. I might add a fourth.

4. The heaven of the heavens.

14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. (Deut.10:14)

In Matthew 6:10 the Lord prayed to the Father that His will would be done on earth "as it is" in heaven. This means that there is no problem with the rule in heaven, and thus no need of a new being in heaven to "subdue". It is evident from Revelation 12 that in heaven any subjugation is done by other angels. Michael fights Lucifer, not any man. The victory that Jesus had was a MORAL victory. He paid the asking price for mankind and His inheritance. He could have got it for free in Luke 4 by bowing down to the Devil. Even His battle against the Principalities He did "in the power of the Spirit" and "by the finger of God" (Lk.4:14, 11:20).

It is evident that because Satan is a heavenly creature, led a rebellion in heaven and still is the "Prince of the power of the air", that his rebellion defiled heaven. Thus, at the end of the Millennium, God makes a New Heaven. Here, rather is man's domain;

1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
...
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! (Ps.8:1–9)

Verse 7 defines the boundaries of man's rule. There is no need for wild or domestic animals in heaven. There is no need for action against angels in heaven. The head covering of the women is directed at what the angels did ON EARTH (1st Cor.11:10, Jude 6).

Man is OF the earth and FOR the earth

[AdHoc]

2 Thrones.

It is put forward by students of scripture, some from renown learning institutes, that Christ will rule from heaven. Their argument is simple. heaven is God's Throne and that is where God, in the Person of Jesus Christ will rule His domain. But in this they discard some crucial scriptures. Rather than object to all the points of this thesis, I will present what I understand to be the situation and let the reader, who probably holds a variant of the above mentioned students, decide for him/herself.

The idea that Jesus could be BOTH born approximately 2,000 years ago, BUT be the Firstborn of all the Creature (Col.1:16) is not the theme of the debate. But it does introduce the question; Where did our Lord sit before His ascension 40 days after His resurrection? We can debate this but what concerns us it where our Lord Jesus sits during this age and the next two ages - the Millennium and the New Earth.

The crucial fact is that the Name 'Jesus' designates His HUMANITY. It was that most holy Thing born to Mary that is named Jesus (Matt.1:21, 25). Since God made Man to subdue and rule this earth, the role that our Lord plays is largely focused on His humanity. Even in the gospel of John, where we have as the main revelation, Jesus in His Deity working Himself into the spirit of man, His humanity plays a crucial role (e.g. Jn.7:39). And it is this fact that determines our Lord's Throne.

For His ministry on earth, the Son of David and Heir of all things had no fixed place of authority. From His ascension to his coronation in Revelation Chapter 4, He sits in His Father's Throne above the highest heaven. H is typified by Joseph of Egypt. He is given all authority except in the Throne itself. This authority is NOT for war, nor is it for forcing His will upon the earth. It is for building His Church which PRESENTLY is the Father's House. It is also for training His "Ekklesia" (His called out ones) for their future role as kings with Him.

At a certain moment, known only to God the Father, Jesus starts His return to earth. His first stop is heaven. Which one is not reported, but with the four Living Creatures and the 24 Elders, it is the heaven from which administration comes from, seeing as they have crowns already. The Lord receives His Crown and His Throne, but it is NOT for heaven. It is for EARTH.. We next see this Throne - "the Throne of His glory" on earth judging "ALL Nations" in Matthew 25:31-46. But immediately will come the objection that on the way from heaven to earth, Jesus orders a rapture and sits in judgment of His "Ekklesia" IN THE AIR. This is true, but He does not judge the Church from His Thrne. In Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10, the set of judgment is a "Traveling Seat" called a "Bema". The People of the heavenly calling sojourn in the air for a few short years until Jesus completes judgment on His House.

Our Lord then completes His journey, bursting through the clouds above Mt. Olivet east of Jerusalem. His Throne is with Him and is set up ON EARTH in Jerusalem. So we read in Jeremiah 3:12 onward, that at the time when God has mercy upon Israel and restores them that; 

17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

There is only one type of government that can stop the Nations worshiping idols and drawing them to visit Jerusalem - the rule of the rod of iron - the Millennial rule.

2 Thrones - one above the highest heaven in which h the Man Jesus sits today. In this throne He is not King for all "power IS GIVEN" to Him (Matt.28:18). From there He builds His Church - letting the Gentiles rule. Then comes the day when He receives HIS THRONE, and soon He travels through the sky downward to Jerusalem to set it up ON EARTH - never to be removed again.

 

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There is no disagreement here. I might add a fourth.

 

Glad we can agree there Ad Hoc.

 

God`s Throne – this is in the `heaven of heavens.`

 

`Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God,…` (Deut. 10: 14)

`One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in you all.` (Eph. 4: 6)

`the Ancient of Days ….a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him, a thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.` (Dan. 7: 10)

 

God`s throne is in the highest heaven, above all.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 

2 Thrones - one above the highest heaven in which h the Man Jesus sits today. In this throne He is not King for all "power IS GIVEN" to Him (Matt.28:18). From there He builds His Church - letting the Gentiles rule. Then comes the day when He receives HIS THRONE, and soon He travels through the sky downward to Jerusalem to set it up ON EARTH - never to be removed again.

 

Let`s see what God`s word says.

 

The Lord Jesus Christ is King over many realms.

 

King of Glory. (Ps. 24: 7)

King of heaven. (Dan. 4: 37)

King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)

King of Righteousness. (Heb. 7: 1 – 3)

King of Israel. (John 1 : 49)

King of the Jews. (Matt. 2: 2)

 

and later King of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)

And finally King of Kings..... (Rev. 19: 16)

 

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

2 It is for building His Church which PRESENTLY is the Father's House. It is also for training His "Ekklesia" (His called out ones) for their future role as kings with Him.

 

 

Glad we agree that the Lord is on His Father`s Throne and building the Body of Christ.

 

Christ`s Exaltation.

`Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ` (Phil. 2: 9 – 11)

`And seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power, and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come, And, put all things under His feet…` (Eph. 1: 20 – 22)

 

Exalted – Gk. `huperupeoo,` raise to the highest position.

 

God the Father exalted His Son to the highest ruling position. From the Father`s throne the Lord Jesus Christ began to build His Body of believers. He sent His Holy Spirit to impart His divine nature and bring them together, mature in the knowledge of Himself.

Then the Father will send His Son to gather His corporate body and thus bring many sons to glory.

`For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory…` (Heb. 2: 10)

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 

At a certain moment, known only to God the Father, Jesus starts His return to earth. His first stop is heaven. Which one is not reported, but with the four Living Creatures and the 24 Elders, it is the heaven from which administration comes from, seeing as they have crowns already. The Lord receives His Crown and His Throne, but it is NOT for heaven. It is for EARTH..

 

The Lord Jesus Christ has always been King, - king of Glory, King of Heaven, King of the Ages, (He planned them) King of Israel , King of Judah, (He made them all and He is their King. It is the rebellious rulers that will be dealt with.

 

The Father will set up His Son in the third heaven (Mount Zion) where He will be visibly ruling and reigning. This is the throne that will execute the Father`s judgments.

 

Christ`s Throne.

At the appointed time God, the Father will set His King, His Son on Mount Zion. This is the ruling area in the highest realm, the angelic heaven.

`I (Father) have set My King on My holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

`you have come to Mount Zion …. To an innumerable company of angels …to God…to Jesus..` (Heb. 12: 22 – 24)

 

Only the Son is worthy to receive such high honor, glory and power.

`Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing! ` (Rev. 5: 12)

The Son, the King on the highest throne has prevailed over sin and Satan. Only He is worthy to open the scroll of judgments upon the rebellious. Written on this scroll are the executive orders from the Father.

`the Father….has given Him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment…` (John 5: 27)

 

Thus, from His own throne, with the Father`s authority the King begins to put down all rule and all authority and power.

`He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. ` (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)  

 

This supreme King over all of God`s great kingdom judges –

Rulers - `The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and His anointed,…` (Ps. 2: 2)

Authorities - `the course of this world,` (Eph. 2: 2) World system (Politically, Economically and religious)

 

Powers - `according to the prince of the power of the air,…` (Eph. 2: 2)

 

And the kingdoms of this world will then become the kingdoms of this King, Jesus.

`The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. And he shall reign forever and ever. ` (Rev. 11: 15)