Why is the "mark" in the RIGHT hand?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:03 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I take it as literal as opposed to symbolic. Everything today is all about technology, speed, convenience, and accounting. Our local Walmart has been converted to almost all barcode self-checkout now.

I think of the speed, convenience, efficiency, and security if you could load up your cart and walk out the door via an RFID chip smaller than a grain of rice, automatically deducting it from your account.

Not to mention, always have all your health, insurance, registrations, and financial information with you. No more show me your license, registration, and proof of insurance. A quick scan of your right hand or forehead does it all. There is no need for wallets and purses anymore.

When pets get chipped, the location is uniform, so the whole body does not need scanning. Historically, the right hand is a symbol of power.

If something like an RFID chip is the M.O.B., it needs a source of rechargeable micropower, I would think. I imagine the forehead and back of the hand would be the easiest accessible and convenient place.

Everything is getting miniaturized; smartphones, smart wristwatches, and RFID chips are everywhere.

Energy is mutually convertible. The forehead and hand have the most temperature variance, which can be converted to microenergy to power something.

Some companies have mandated their employees get chipped for access and security concerns. Thus far, the SCOTUS has nixed that requirement, but what would it take for them to reverse that decision?

Just some thoughts as I see things progress.

If there is an agenda being rolled out with all of that, which if true, that some sort of an allegiance or an agreement must be made in the making use of such things that would make the use of it evil. So those things in themselves might not be wrong, as I have heard that said before also. We shall see.

[Jaydub]

5 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I haven't a problem taking places in scripture as spiritually speaking, and I have thought on this time and again for many years but I could not make that leap (in the sense that I was ever fully convinced of it).

So I would have to say, I am just not convinced Jaydub.

Thanks, Just to make sure I understand where you are coming from, You are not sure if these verses are to be taken literally or symbolical, if that is so, does that pertain to all the verses?

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

1 hour ago, Jaydub said:

Thanks, Just to make sure I understand where you are coming from, You are not sure if these verses are to be taken literally or symbolical, if that is so, does that pertain to all the verses?

 

I wrote " I  can typically spiritualize things with no problem and do not deny that there is an element of that there but I can't fully do so in this thing and be fully convinced."

Which pertains to the buying and selling, because they can buy of Christ, and buy the truth and buy things of this world the same as the other part, whereas the picture eliminates the buying and selling specifically to one.

Besides something can be literally spiritual or literally carnal. For example two different people can be either carnal or spiritual in that way without being symbolic. While the beast could have carnal attributes and set forth in a symbolic way but still literal. I hope I even said that correctly. I often use Jesus dead burying their dead. Are they both dead (Yes) Jesus said they were dead, its the nature of the dead, one can only be spiritually dead (not carnally dead) in order to bury someone else who is dead (carnally). Sort of like the widow that is dead while she liveth, it could seem a little contradictory if you are only reasoning with it on one level.

I can reason with it both ways but what I am saying is I am not fully convinced is all. So I asked to see how you might see it, to give me something more to consider.

[choir loft]

On 12/19/2023 at 5:25 PM, Michael37 said:

The simple answer is Usability. *

The thought is that mark reading equipment will match the options given in Revelation 13.

Is there a term that describes how technology is designed to facilitate efficient use?

Yes, there is a term that describes how technology is designed to facilitate efficient use. It is called *usability.  Usability refers to the ease of use and learnability of a human-made object, such as a tool or device. The term was first coined by Jakob Nielsen in 1993¹. Usability is an important aspect of design, especially in the field of human-computer interaction (HCI), where it is used to evaluate the effectiveness of user interfaces and other interactive systems². Usability can be measured using various methods, such as user testing, heuristic evaluation, and cognitive walkthroughs². By designing technology with usability in mind, we can create products that are more efficient, effective, and satisfying to use.

¹: Wikipedia ²: University of Maryland

[Collated by BingChat]

I take exception to simplicity here with regard to interpreting the placement of the marks.  The Revelation reference is directly connected to the tradition of wearing phylacteries. (Please Google phylacteries.)

We must FIRST examine the LAW and what it says about phylacteries.....that which is bound upon the hand and head.

It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16)  

The "it" referenced above implies either the demonic global religious system or the leader of it.   Both are implicated.

The scripture quoted above is rather odd in that it does not agree with the requirements either of Jewish LAW or tradition.  It's a specific description of a religious system that perverts God's Holy LAW.

What then is the meaning of God's LAW?  How is it to be correctly interpreted?

And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand.” (Exodus 13:16) 

According to Mosaic LAW, wearing phylacteries is still obligatory upon those who strictly observe the LAW (mostly orthodox Jews).  PHYLACTERIES are to be worn on the head and whichever arm isn't primary.   For instance, if the left hand is primary then a phylactery is to be worn on the right arm.  If the person is right handed then a phylactery is to be worn on the left arm.

Phylacteries are of two kinds, both of which are to be worn by the devout Jew.  

One is a leather strap that is curled tightly around the forearm.  The other is a small wooden box worn on the forehead and attached to the head with a leather strap.  The small box contains verses of scripture from the LAW.  Those that wear them claim they make the wearer feel closer to God.   (I can't attest to the veracity of this claim.)

Since we now understand the correct interpretation of phylacteries - how they are worn and why, we may continue to explore the meaning of Revelation with regard to its prediction of the corruption of this Jewish LAW and tradition.

Historic and Biblical references chronicle ordinances made by conquering rulers that restricted trade.  In order for a person to escape persecution and in order to further establish the authority of a tyrant, numbers were either carried by citizens or tattooed upon their flesh.  The practice is in force today in every nation on earth.  Every person is issued a number or identification of one sort or another and cannot perform transactions without it.  Is this interpretation of the End Times correct?   I suspect it isn't.

All the scriptures about the global anti-Christ system refer to a religion.   To the best of my knowledge there is no such religion in existence today.   It has been argued by some that this church manipulates currency, but no sufficient evidence has been offered to substantiate it.  

Therefore we turn to the meaning of phylacteries - one that is entirely corrupted in most interpretations I've read.

Is there a correct interpretation that hasn't been influenced by aberrant guesses and that doesn't depart from the true Biblical meaning of phylacteries?   There are none available that I'm aware of except perhaps one......that the church by way of allegiance (the right hand symbolizes working allegiance) and assent (the head symbolizes mental acceptance or belief) might already have placed an invisible mark upon those who falsely follow it...rather than Christ.

You see.......its not all that simple.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

From what I have read these Phylacteries are only worn for weekday and Sunday morning prayers. So I have no idea how this can possibly be related to some physical (or spiritual mark) as it relates to any buying and selling when it comes to this mark of the beast. The scriptures contained within them are Ex 13:1-10, Ex 13:11-16,  Deut 6:4-9, and Deut 11:13-21 and these worn for prayer time with the intention to fulfill the instruction to maintain doing this as a continuous sign in  remembrance of their Exodus from Egypt as mentioned in Ex 13:9, Ex 13:16, Deut 6:8, and Deut 11:18.

How would this be considered the mark of the beast? Is that what is being implied with a leather strap and a box on ones head? 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[FJK]

5 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

How would this be considered the mark of the beast? Is that what is being implied with a leather strap and a box on ones head? 

Give some consideration to the idea that the Mark will be a defilement of something holy, something pronounced by God, as the entire beast system will be.  Even very real physical things are also symbolic if intended that way as their main purpose.

Just something to think about when thinking about it.

[choir loft]

8 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

From what I have read these Phylacteries are only worn for weekday and Sunday morning prayers. So I have no idea how this can possibly be related to some physical (or spiritual mark) as it relates to any buying and selling when it comes to this mark of the beast. The scriptures contained within them are Ex 13:1-10, Ex 13:11-16,  Deut 6:4-9, and Deut 11:13-21 and these worn for prayer time with the intention to fulfill the instruction to maintain doing this as a continuous sign in  remembrance of their Exodus from Egypt as mentioned in Ex 13:9, Ex 13:16, Deut 6:8, and Deut 11:18.

How would this be considered the mark of the beast? Is that what is being implied with a leather strap and a box on ones head? 

 

 

Phylacteries were worn at all times as indicated in the gospels and commanded in the ceremonial LAW of Moses, but most particularly during synagogue services as you've pointed out.  

Indeed even the 'tzit tzit' are worn today even by those who aren't orthodox by admission.   I personally prefer to wear them with my tallit during worship services only, but many wear them attached to the belt loops on their trousers on a daily basis.  Bottom line here is that there doesn't appear to be any insistence upon where or when these items are worn and displayed.  That they are worn at all IS my point.

Discussions of these points are academic since our secular women and men seem to feel it's entirely appropriate to dress like a slut in public without the slightest consideration of the sexual aberrations such clothing represents.      

One of the tangential issues of service in the Israel Defense Force is wearing phylacteries on the arm and head (pictured above).  Orthodox men once refused to serve in the IDF until certain acknowledgments were made by the military to their traditional accoutrement.  The picture you shared in your post is an example of the IDF's yielding to the point of wearing phylacteries during military service.   YES they are worn during worship, but YES they are also worn at other times as well.   (I should point out here that the fellow in your photo is NOT participating in a religious service.  Evidence of this is that he isn't wearing a Tallit, which is required attire for Jewish worship services.)

Jesus once made a joke of those who wore excessively long or large phylacteries as a measure of public religious pride and hypocrisy.  The SAME thing is done by Christians who wear HUGE crosses on necklaces around their neck or as tattoo marks on their skin or who display them on their cars or as statues in their homes, etc.  

MY POINT is the odd parallel described in the book of Revelation between phylacteries and the Mark(s) of the demonic religious system.   Is it a coincidence?   I think not.  

Does any demonic perversion of appropriate religion have to be exactly identical or is it enhanced by its own twisted application?  I believe this is a distinct possibility.

Indeed we see much of the church already embracing certain aberrations of behavior certified by the RCC (the embodiment of the demonic religious system).  Attending church services on Sunday rather than Saturday is one of them.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50) 

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25)

Secular society has thrown all such discussion into the waste bin of history.  It is a FACT of American life that God may own Saturday, but the NFL owns Sunday.

Returning to the Marks of the religious system, I don't believe they need to be as overt as Jewish phylacteries or as imaginative as the idea of tattoo marks on the skin.

The hand is typically representative of action, of active WORK being performed for some reason.

The head is typically representative of ALLEGIANCE, of active assent to a particular religious doctrine or political entity.

Together the head and hand symbolize a kind of fanatic support of either religion or politics or both together.  Personally I feel this is the appropriate interpretation of Revelation's reference to such marks.  Are they real marks or are they figurative and representative?   Perhaps both, for every single tyrant in history has demanded both whether they employed actual physical marks or not.

Is not our salute of the American flag and declaration of allegiance the same thing?   

We need to be very careful about what it is we think is important enough to demand and receive our absolute fanatical allegiance.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Edited December 24, 2023 by choir loft
scripture references added

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

8 hours ago, FJK said:

Give some consideration to the idea that the Mark will be a defilement of something holy, something pronounced by God, as the entire beast system will be.  Even very real physical things are also symbolic if intended that way as their main purpose.

Just something to think about when thinking about it.

Its just a box of scripture verses written with ink strapped to their foreheads, certainly not his laws written in their minds.

Even if I do not buy into the idea of it (pun intended) doesn't mean I would be hopping on the next train to strap some sort of box to my head in order to buy or sell anything. Or sign up for any sort of strange allegiance that manifests itself that way, no thank you.

So I have thought about it in various ways, even in the sense of a spiritual mark pertaining to carnality as it relates to sin or serving sin. As long as you understand you are not to serve sin, then you needn't worry about "that" sort of mark anyway either.

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

6 hours ago, choir loft said:

Phylacteries were worn at all times as indicated in the gospels and commanded in the ceremonial LAW of Moses, but most particularly during synagogue services as you've pointed out.  

Indeed even the 'tzit tzit' are worn today even by those who aren't orthodox by admission.   I personally prefer to wear them with my tallit during worship services only, but many wear them attached to the belt loops on their trousers on a daily basis.  Bottom line here is that there doesn't appear to be any insistence upon where or when these items are worn and displayed.  That they are worn at all IS my point.

Discussions of these points are academic since our secular women and men seem to feel it's entirely appropriate to dress like a slut in public without the slightest consideration of the sexual aberrations such clothing represents.      

One of the tangential issues of service in the Israel Defense Force is wearing phylacteries on the arm and head (pictured above).  Orthodox men once refused to serve in the IDF until certain acknowledgments were made by the military to their traditional accoutrement.  The picture you shared in your post is an example of the IDF's yielding to the point of wearing phylacteries during military service.   YES they are worn during worship, but YES they are also worn at other times as well.   (I should point out here that the fellow in your photo is NOT participating in a religious service.  Evidence of this is that he isn't wearing a Tallit, which is required attire for Jewish worship services.)

Jesus once made a joke of those who wore excessively long or large phylacteries as a measure of public religious pride and hypocrisy.  The SAME thing is done by Christians who wear HUGE crosses on necklaces around their neck or as tattoo marks on their skin or who display them on their cars or as statues in their homes, etc.  

MY POINT is the odd parallel described in the book of Revelation between phylacteries and the Mark(s) of the demonic religious system.   Is it a coincidence?   I think not.  

Does any demonic perversion of appropriate religion have to be exactly identical or is it enhanced by its own twisted application?  I believe this is a distinct possibility.

Indeed we see much of the church already embracing certain aberrations of behavior certified by the RCC (the embodiment of the demonic religious system).  Attending church services on Sunday rather than Saturday is one of them.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50) 

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Daniel 7:25)

Secular society has thrown all such discussion into the waste bin of history.  It is a FACT of American life that God may own Saturday, but the NFL owns Sunday.

Returning to the Marks of the religious system, I don't believe they need to be as overt as Jewish phylacteries or as imaginative as the idea of tattoo marks on the skin.

The hand is typically representative of action, of active WORK being performed for some reason.

The head is typically representative of ALLEGIANCE, of active assent to a particular religious doctrine or political entity.

Together the head and hand symbolize a kind of fanatic support of either religion or politics or both together.  Personally I feel this is the appropriate interpretation of Revelation's reference to such marks.  Are they real marks or are they figurative and representative?   Perhaps both, for every single tyrant in history has demanded both whether they employed actual physical marks or not.

Is not our salute of the American flag and declaration of allegiance the same thing?   

We need to be very careful about what it is we think is important enough to demand and receive our absolute fanatical allegiance.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

I am aware of the Catholic church changing times and laws as was done, and you know, I just posted on the seventh day on another thread as it pertains to "His rest", and I didn't add much more than posting the places all the same was mentioned, but I recall thinking how changing that day as far as it prophetically applies to the entering into His rest goes as far as that day could sort of obscure those things concerning the same.

And because that day pertains to "His rest" or that it remains a promise in respects to entering in, and how the "no rest" might contrast that. Just how they could tie into these things.

I have to agree with you as far as the allegiance thing, there is obviously an element of worship in the picture. Even in worship or serving Jesus Christ, one bows the knee to him and serves righteousness, or bows the knee in worship or service to Satan manifesting in serving unrighteousness. In the latter case (to me) would pertain to the very things of this world, and so on that level of things (the buying and selling) would have to play into it by nature of the beast (who apparently bowed the knee to the devil) with his lure (as shown us in Jesus Christ) "All this I will give  to you" IF... line. 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Jaydub]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:44 PM, AFlameOfFire said:

I haven't a problem taking places in scripture as spiritually speaking, and I have thought on this time and again for many years but I could not make that leap (in the sense that I was ever fully convinced of it).

So I would have to say, I am just not convinced Jaydub. 

If we could just continue in our talk. I would like to ask you a question about a scripture on the subject, more or less. REV 20:4-5

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection

I can't read these verses and conclude that the mark must be literal

I saw the thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to Judge

I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God

Are these not all believers?  aren't these verse  referring to all the believers in heaven ?  If so, Then it must be symbolic, because there was no physical mark, but if it was symbolic then it would  make sense. If it is only speaking about tribulation saints how is it the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years had ended. In other words, if it is only tribulation saints, then where are the other saints reigning with Christ

I am having trouble putting my thoughts down, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say here, maybe you can help me through this. Am I looking at it the wrong way?