perfection????

[Guest douggarb]

I have been thinking for some time on the 1Jn 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him." .KJV The NLV says it like this " So if we continue to live in him, we won't sin either. But those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood him.". Part of me says no way we will always sin and fall short, but the other part says that when he says "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Mat 5:48 that it is possible. Is it a lack of faith that I do things that seem to condemn my conscience. OR is the fact that paul says "(paraphrase) what I want to do I don't, and that which I don't want to do I do. Therefor it is not me that does it but sin that reigns in my mortal body." I have done some study on this but can't come up with an conclusive answer. I would appreciate some brothers and sisters opinions.

In Him

douggarb

[felix]

Whysoblind touched on the question very well.

Those who keep on sinning have not seen nor known Him. But those who abide in Christ and who walk in the spirit do not sin. If we are walking in our spirit we cannot sin. We simply don't have the desire to.

Gal 5:16

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

In our spirit we are in communion with God for that is where He is dwelling. How can we be in spirit? Praying, calling on the Lord, fasting, and just turning ourselves to the Lord. I dont know how to explain it...when sin comes my way to tempt me my flesh wants to follow...but I already know that if I just turn to my spirit, it will kill this sin. But it is my choice. Sometimes I follow my flesh and sometimes I follow my spirit. In this way I am not perfect. But if I keep following my spirit, sin never takes me.

When you spoke about Paul ("what I want to do I don't, and that which I don't want to do I do. Therefore it is not me that does it but sin that reigns in my mortal body." ), this is when we are in our soul. We can't beat sin in our soul. In our soul we know that we should not sin...but trying to resist sin in this manner will cause us to sin. Paul is trying to show what is happening inside us.

For example, we know that we should not look lustfully at a women...but say when we're at work, school or the mall we can't help but look around...at women or pictures. In our mind we made up the decision to follow God and be obediant to not looking lustfully at women. But then when we are in this situation we cannot help it. This is sin reigning in our mortal body. So it is not that you chose to sin but the sin in your mortal body.

If I am in spirit however, I can walk anywhere and when I see a beautiful women...I can look at her...but she has no effect on me.

[Guest douggarb]

(Quote)

This is essentially correct. In the KJV "Sinneth" is a perfect progressive form of the verb "sin". Hence it means to "keep on sinning". "Sinneth not" would therefore mean "don't keep on sinning".

You just said that it means keep on sinning. That means if we sin again then we have kept on sinning.

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This does not imply sinless perfection because in chapter 1, John tells us not to sin, but IF we sin we have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus.

I believe that in chapter 1John is talking to people that are not believers because this whole letter is to Christian. Meaning that he could not have been talking to people who already had known that they have an advocate with the father if they had already repented.

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Perfect in this text comes from the greek "teleios", which means "complete" or "mature" in your walk with Christ, as it applies to man. It doesn't appear to convey the meaning "flawless". While we are to strive to be more and more like Christ, and to sin less and less, we are not without sin and faults.

Why? Where does it say that we will sin after the blood is applied to our life?

(Quote)

Paul's discovery was that in this life man cannot obtain sinless perfection, but that sin need not totally dominate us either, nor need we be condemned when we fail. This is not an excuse for sin, but it is God grace extended to man.

Is there an excuse for sin? If there is what would it be? In Phil it says that we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us.

I am not trying to be difficult. Just trying to figure thing out.

In his love

douggarb

[felix]

Phillipians 4:13

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me."

Douggarb,

Phil 4:13 refers not to sinning but to difficulties.

[Guest A New Name]

(Quote)

This is essentially correct. In the KJV "Sinneth" is a perfect progressive form of the verb "sin". Hence it means to "keep on sinning". "Sinneth not" would therefore mean "don't keep on sinning".

You just said that it means keep on sinning. That means if we sin again then we have kept on sinning.

(Quote)

This does not imply sinless perfection because in chapter 1, John tells us not to sin, but IF we sin we have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus.

I believe that in chapter 1John is talking to people that are not believers because this whole letter is to Christian. Meaning that he could not have been talking to people who already had known that they have an advocate with the father if they had already repented.

(Quote)

Perfect in this text comes from the greek "teleios", which means "complete" or "mature" in your walk with Christ, as it applies to man. It doesn't appear to convey the meaning "flawless". While we are to strive to be more and more like Christ, and to sin less and less, we are not without sin and faults.

Why? Where does it say that we will sin after the blood is applied to our life?

(Quote)

Paul's discovery was that in this life man cannot obtain sinless perfection, but that sin need not totally dominate us either, nor need we be condemned when we fail. This is not an excuse for sin, but it is God grace extended to man.

Is there an excuse for sin? If there is what would it be? In Phil it says that we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us.

I am not trying to be difficult. Just trying to figure thing out.

In his love

douggarb

Felix or Douggarb(?), I will attempt to address your questions below from the word of God:

1. "Why? Where does it say that we will sin after the blood is applied to our life?"

In 1 John 2:1-2 we read:

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

(Keep in mind he is writing to believers. John's use of the term "little children implies a tender fatherly concern for these believers under his care.) When he says "if anyone sins we have..." he couldn't possibly be talking to unbelievers because he just told them in the same breathe he was writing so that they may not sin. Unbelievers ONLY sin. Also the term "and if" can not be seperated from the previous sentence, in essence--they are connected.

Although we don't find it worded exactly as you've questioned, it is definitely implied in the text.

Paul also often rebuked and chastised Christians about sinful (carnal) behaviors and admonished them to "seek those things above..." See Col. 3:1-7.

2. Is there an excuse for sin? If there is what would it be? In Phil it says that we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us

There is no excuse for sin...but, there is GRACE. This is demonstrated in the passage above--Christ our ADVOCATE. How many of us walk in the Spirit 24/7? PRAISE GOD FOR HIS GRACE, THOUGH WE DARE NOT ABUSE IT! As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ it should be evident as incidents of sin decrease in our lives. Sin can and should be conquered through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is Christ alone who produces obedience to God in our lives through faith.

The Apostle John is stating moreso the absolutes of Christian character rather than 'what if we fail'. However, he does touch on this matter as stated above.

The thought here is not that Christians don't sin, but rather true believers don't and can not practice a lifesyle of sin. We have been given a new nature(John3:5-8). It says in 1 John 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Before the Lord saved me I practiced sin. It was my lifestyle (habitual sin) and I was under sin's power. Now as a believer in Christ, sin has no power over me though I get tripped up at times, I have the power of the Holy Spirit to live a godly life (habitual righteousness) and if I stumble, Christ is my Advocate. PRAISE BE TO GOD!

ROMANS 6:17-18: "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

I hope this helps. Praying for you and trusting the Holy Spirit to illuminate your spiritual eyes. I'm so glad you're seeking to know His word. He is faithful and will guide you in all manner of truth.

A New Name~In Christ

Edited November 4, 2005 by A New Name

[Pilgrim7]

Paul Says,

Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

God Bless,

Dennis