Coming of the two witnesses

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, SACREDWARRIOR said:

 

Maybe. But it is not recorded - or, you would have posted scripture.

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

You make an excellent argument and back it up with scripture; that is admirable. Some of your views exactly mirror my own. The rule I try to follow is:

These were more noble (open-minded, tolerant) than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11) [emphasis added]

When a person is raised with a particular view or denomination, they gravitate to a church with that same view as I have. It gets ingrained and reinforced weekly in Sunday School and church. I let the Bible speak to me and pray to understand scripture better. I try not to let men interpret it for me, as we are all fallible.

Throughout the centuries, the Lord called many great men of God, pastors, preachers, evangelicals, theologians, and scholars. It is baffling how they can all come up with different views and doctrines, reading the same Book.

Religion: To name a few, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Church of Christ, Pentecostals, prosperity gospels, Baptists, etc., do not have the same exegesis and doctrine. Some core beliefs, views, and principles are grossly non-Biblical.

As we discuss our differences, we become more like the Bereans, delving into God’s word for ourselves and seeing whether those things are so, which is a good thing. 😊

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. (Hebrews 5:12)

The Bible is a huge Book, written by the most superior mind in the universe - by far. Not one of us is going to get the full story in our Lifetime. Maybe the Millennium will give us more time and the slothful servants will not be wasting Talents, seeing as they are taken away and given to the diligent and faithful. The Lord spoke of progressive revelation in John 16;

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All of us are on a journey  in God's Word. Some are 20 years down this road, and some are 30. Some willfully took a wrong turning and struggle with the Bible. Some refused God's plain speaking and God gives them no further light. Some are given five Talents - some only one. And the Bible reveals that the problems usually beset the student with one Talent.

The Holy Spirit feeds us truth in a measured way, so that even the most brilliant of scholars is subject to God's pace. All we can do is be a Berean. We have our language and it has rules. So we take what is written and go no further. If the Holy Spirit says "give alms" it is plain and simple. When the chance to give alms arrives and our Lord gives the OK, we give alms. If the Words of God say that a man is given to die once, and there is no recorded exception, we don't have to spend hours and days trying to refute this simple and plain saying. It is what it is.

You will notice, here on this Forum, and in the Churches, that the most energy is spent by men who have a concept, but which scripture does not support, trying to make what is plain mean something else. Acts 2 verse 29 and 34 clearly and unambiguously declare that David's grave is still in Jerusalem, that David is still in Hades and that David has not ascended to heaven. The date was 50 days after Jesus' resurrection and 10 days after His rapture. These are unassailable facts. From them we may use logic and be further informed that;
- Old Testament saints went to Hades at death
- Believers go to Hades because David wrote profusely about Jesus in the Psalms
- Believers go to Hades because that were the Lord would go and malefactor would meet Him there
- David was NOT one of those raised in Matthew 27:52
- David's BODY was dust in his grave showing that he was BODILY NOT WITH THE LORD
- David wrote in Psalm 139:8 that he would be with the Lord in Hades - David's soul with Christ's spirit
- The resurrection of the Lord has no bearing on the date on which the rest of us will be RAISED as it occurs on a fixed day "WHEN HE COMES" - not when He goes (1st Cor.15;23)

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You will notice, here on this Forum, and in the Churches, that the most energy is spent by men who have a concept, but which scripture does not support, trying to make what is plain mean something else. Acts 2 verse 29 and 34 clearly and unambiguously declare that David's grave is still in Jerusalem, that David is still in Hades and that David has not ascended to heaven.

Would you agree that the harpazo, the Resurrection, and Rapture of the church age saints exclude OT saints at this time, that there is a separate resurrection and time for OT saints?

Either Abraham’s Bosom side of Hades was cleaned out directly after Jesus’s resurrection, or they will be resurrected sometime after the harpazo of the bride of Christ. The many witnesses walking the streets of the holy city of Jerusalem could have been a sampling and testimony of what occurred.

I have sided with John MacArthur and J. Vernon McGee on their thoughts on Acts 2:29,34. But, as I have said many times, because someone thinks that way does not make it correct. 

[AdHoc]

3 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Would you agree that the harpazo, the Resurrection, and Rapture of the church age saints exclude OT saints at this time, that there is a separate resurrection and time for OT saints?

Either Abraham’s Bosom side of Hades was cleaned out directly after Jesus’s resurrection, or they will be resurrected sometime after the harpazo of the bride of Christ. The many witnesses walking the streets of the holy city of Jerusalem could have been a sampling and testimony of what occurred.

I have sided with John MacArthur and J. Vernon McGee on their thoughts on Acts 2:29,34. But, as I have said many times, because someone thinks that way does not make it correct. 

I understand that the age in which a man lived does not play a role. I offer two immediate proofs so that you can observe my thinking.
1. Matthew 8:10-12

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To see the Kingdom of Heaven one must be born again (Jn.3:3). To enter it one must be born out of the Spirit and immersed in water. One can still be banished for unrighteousness (1st Cor.6:9-10, gal.5:21, Eph.5:5) or disobedience (Matt.7:21-23). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in the kingdom. By "children of the Kingdom" Israel is meant. That is the context - a gentile with faith versus no faith in Israel. Now, Israel since Moses (Deut.18:18) have had enough information to believe in a Messiah. Thus, the whole of Israel is meant (dead and alive as Jesus spoke).

2. Matthew 16 into 17

28 ... There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
...
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

In the same principle, Moses and Elijah are seen in the Kingdom with Jesus. "AFTER six days (of 1,000 years) makes it the Millennial Kingdom. Both are Old Testament

FAITH works whether a man looks forward to Messiah or back as we do.

- The Rapture is a snatching of a man to move him to another place. "Harpazo" shows movement but not direction. It's correct translation is thus "CAUGHT AWAY"
- The resurrection is for dead bodies. But it included the return of the soul (1st Ki.17:22) and the spirit (Lk.8:55)
- The change in the "twinkling of an eye" is for those Christians still alive at the coming of Christ

I understand that Jesus descended "first" to the "heart of the earth" but was not left in Hades. By resurrection morning He told Mary "I have not yet ascended to my Father, but shortly I will ascend" (Jn.20:17). Thus, for three days Jesus was in Hades. But our Lord Jesus and a believer (the malefactor crucified with Him) went to Paradise. Paradise cannot be anywhere else than Hades. In 2nd Corinthians 12 the grammar indicates TWO journeys by Paul.

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught AWAY to the third heaven. 3 AND I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught AWAY into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I have inserted the literal translation of "Harpazo" - "Caught AWAY". The word "UP" is not given in the original. The grammar would be very cumbersome if Paul was caught to Heaven, and Paradise was the same place. But the "AND" at the beginning of verse 3 forbids that thought. "AND" is a conjunction which joins two things, add something and sets a sequence (copulative, cumulative and sequential). Thus, what happened in verse 3 is a separate incident or journey. Further proof of this is that Paradise is firmly fixed in Hades by scripture, but with NO scripture to indicate a change of place. Next, for what purpose would God add another Paradise from Hades when He has His own (Rev.2:7)? Next, failing scripture again is the notion that Paradise was emptied. But Paul heard "words" (v.4). Next, while John reports extensively of heaven in Revelation, Paul is forbidden to report. But Paul uses the word "UNLAWFUL" which is mainly used in the Synoptic gospels to do has to do with the Law of Moses (The death penalty was attached to necromancers). This is a further indication that Paradise is still in the area of the dead.

There is therefore NO evidence that Paradise was moved from Hades
It is still inhabited but the Apostle, who must bear a thorn in his flesh for his revelation, is forbidden to talk of it
Paul must make two journeys. If Paradise is in heaven, when did it go there and why was David left without Paradise?

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I understand that the age in which a man lived does not play a role. I offer two immediate proofs so that you can observe my thinking.
1. Matthew 8:10-12

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To see the Kingdom of Heaven one must be born again (Jn.3:3). To enter it one must be born out of the Spirit and immersed in water. One can still be banished for unrighteousness (1st Cor.6:9-10, gal.5:21, Eph.5:5) or disobedience (Matt.7:21-23). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in the kingdom. By "children of the Kingdom" Israel is meant. That is the context - a gentile with faith versus no faith in Israel. Now, Israel since Moses (Deut.18:18) have had enough information to believe in a Messiah. Thus, the whole of Israel is meant (dead and alive as Jesus spoke).

2. Matthew 16 into 17

28 ... There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
...
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

In the same principle, Moses and Elijah are seen in the Kingdom with Jesus. "AFTER six days (of 1,000 years) makes it the Millennial Kingdom. Both are Old Testament

FAITH works whether a man looks forward to Messiah or back as we do.

- The Rapture is a snatching of a man to move him to another place. "Harpazo" shows movement but not direction. It's correct translation is thus "CAUGHT AWAY"
- The resurrection is for dead bodies. But it included the return of the soul (1st Ki.17:22) and the spirit (Lk.8:55)
- The change in the "twinkling of an eye" is for those Christians still alive at the coming of Christ

I understand that Jesus descended "first" to the "heart of the earth" but was not left in Hades. By resurrection morning He told Mary "I have not yet ascended to my Father, but shortly I will ascend" (Jn.20:17). Thus, for three days Jesus was in Hades. But our Lord Jesus and a believer (the malefactor crucified with Him) went to Paradise. Paradise cannot be anywhere else than Hades. In 2nd Corinthians 12 the grammar indicates TWO journeys by Paul.

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught AWAY to the third heaven. 3 AND I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught AWAY into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I have inserted the literal translation of "Harpazo" - "Caught AWAY". The word "UP" is not given in the original. The grammar would be very cumbersome if Paul was caught to Heaven, and Paradise was the same place. But the "AND" at the beginning of verse 3 forbids that thought. "AND" is a conjunction which joins two things, add something and sets a sequence (copulative, cumulative and sequential). Thus, what happened in verse 3 is a separate incident or journey. Further proof of this is that Paradise is firmly fixed in Hades by scripture, but with NO scripture to indicate a change of place. Next, for what purpose would God add another Paradise from Hades when He has His own (Rev.2:7)? Next, failing scripture again is the notion that Paradise was emptied. But Paul heard "words" (v.4). Next, while John reports extensively of heaven in Revelation, Paul is forbidden to report. But Paul uses the word "UNLAWFUL" which is mainly used in the Synoptic gospels to do has to do with the Law of Moses (The death penalty was attached to necromancers). This is a further indication that Paradise is still in the area of the dead.

There is therefore NO evidence that Paradise was moved from Hades
It is still inhabited but the Apostle, who must bear a thorn in his flesh for his revelation, is forbidden to talk of it
Paul must make two journeys. If Paradise is in heaven, when did it go there and why was David left without Paradise?

Yes, I agree. Harpazo indicates movement, is caught away, and by itself does not give direction. Phillip was raptured horizontally from a place to a place. As I detailed in another thread, possibly Elijah was also, unless his letter to King Jehoram was postdated, or the chronology-dates of the kings of Judah and Israel are inaccurate.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Corinthians 5:6) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Before I replied to your post, I wanted to triple-check and study to see if my understanding of what Paul was saying about being absent from the body was immediate or delayed.

Immediately after our last heartbeat, our last breath, our body dies, where does our soul go. Is there a gap of time to spend in Hades before we are present with the Lord? We do not dispute where the spirit immediately goes, or is there a gap of time here too.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

To think our souls still go to Hades awaiting resurrection is akin to the Catholic belief of a purgatory, Yeshua is not residing in Hades, He now resides in the 3^rd Heaven at the right hand of the Father, until the Father says, go get Your bride.  

Unlike OT saints and Tribulation saints, the bride of Christ is under a privileged and special Grace dispensation, the age of Grace.

If I understand your view correctly, you seem to be implying there is a gap of unknown time for the Christian’s soul to spend in the grave (Hades) until the resurrection. Not that I am correct, but I interpret 2 Cor. 5:6-8 to be immediate upon physical death.

Lot’s of interesting hermeneutics to discuss. 😊

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, I agree. Harpazo indicates movement, is caught away, and by itself does not give direction. Phillip was raptured horizontally from a place to a place. As I detailed in another thread, possibly Elijah was also, unless his letter to King Jehoram was postdated, or the chronology-dates of the kings of Judah and Israel are inaccurate.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Corinthians 5:6) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Before I replied to your post, I wanted to triple-check and study to see if my understanding of what Paul was saying about being absent from the body was immediate or delayed.

Immediately after our last heartbeat, our last breath, our body dies, where does our soul go. Is there a gap of time to spend in Hades before we are present with the Lord? We do not dispute where the spirit immediately goes, or is there a gap of time here too.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

To think our souls still go to Hades awaiting resurrection is akin to the Catholic belief of a purgatory, Yeshua is not residing in Hades, He now resides in the 3^rd Heaven at the right hand of the Father, until the Father says, go get Your bride.  

Unlike OT saints and Tribulation saints, the bride of Christ is under a privileged and special Grace dispensation, the age of Grace.

If I understand your view correctly, you seem to be implying there is a gap of unknown time for the Christian’s soul to spend in the grave (Hades) until the resurrection. Not that I am correct, but I interpret 2 Cor. 5:6-8 to be immediate upon physical death.

Lot’s of interesting hermeneutics to discuss. 😊

Aye Brother. It sure is interesting. I can see where you are coming from too. First, lets dispense with purgatory.

Roman Catholicism is founded on salvation by Works. Not the Work of Christ, but your own Works. It tries, at all times to annul the works of Christ. Purgatory is simply a fable because they need middle ground to sell indulgences. If those who were not perfect were immediately consigned to hell, there would be little hope for men and also little chance for the Church to make money. So the doctrine of purgatory is that YOU BURN, or are "purged" of your venial sins by fire and then on "All Saints day" (your Halloween) they rise up to heaven. Now, I don't for a moment believe that you believe that, but in your argument above, you equated PARADISE with Purgatory. Our Souls, if in Hades, are in Paradise as our lord Jesus said to the malefactor. I'm sure you don't mean that some sort of transfer took place.

Phew! I wish I was at a bar having a beer with you so you could see my utter friendliness in this discussion. But while we wait for a refill ... I think that the term "paradise" cannot be equated with "purgatory" by any means.

Next, Psalm 16:11 says that the greatest pleasure a man can have is to be in the presence of God. And in Psalm 139:8 David assures us under inspiration, that the spirit of Jesus IS in Hades. So actually, the very relationship that God instituted in John 4:24 is our portion in Hades - man's SOUL communicating with and worshiping the Spirit of Christ.

Next, the thing about 2nd Corinthians 5, that many miss, is that in death you shed your body. That is, being with Christ in the 3rd heaven is an impossibility. He is BODILY present but you are not. Your body is in the dust of earth. Now the problem is magnified because, as 2nd Corinthians 5 says; "You are naked!" And this nakedness not only makes you groan, but God cannot tolerate nakedness and kills to cloth Adam and Eve. But it gets worse. In death you are UNCLEAN. Yes, Christ clans our BODY (Heb.10:22) but your body is gone. If you touch a dead man on Monday afternoon you will be unclean and cannot even feast the Passover. But if you go through the cleansing procedure of God's Law, but touch the dead man a week later you are again unclean. But now it is you that are dead. You exist in a permanent state of uncleanness. No wonder God consigns the dead to under the earth.

Next, if you do somehow get to the third heaven naked and unclean, how will you deal with the God Who dwells in unapproachable light. Death is God's enemy and Jesus sits at the right hand of the MAJESTY on HIGH. Will the Cherubim allow you to defile God's Citadel and introduce an enemy to His presence. Could God's utter holiness tolerate this?

But the problems with Rome's doctrine are not over. If you pass as a disembodied soul into heaven and sit with Christ for 40 years, in what way will you RISE? Rise indicates upward motion, but you ar already there. And the matter is compounded by the fact that you only RISE to the surface of the earth because you are going TOGETHER with the LIVING. This would require your soul to descend from haven to Hades, then RISE for the second time, meet your body, join up with the LIVING, and then be raptured back to the air.

My esteemed brother, I think the problems and lack of scriptures for all this are insurmountable. Of course, I was aborn and bred catholic till my conversion at 28. So I've got not special past to glory in. But what say you about the above? Do we find it in the Word?

Gotta Bible Study in 10 minutes ... more good brothers ... what a Feast of the Word. Take care soldier.

[abcdef]

Is the resurrection of  the 2 witnesses in Rev 11:11-12,

the same event as the 7th trumpet and the revealing of the ark in the temple of God in Rev 11:19?