Your closest friendnt Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 (edited) 10 hours ago, FJK said: One thought: The Bible tells us that the dead know nothing, that seems in conflict with going to be with him (Jesus) before the resurrection. How do you reconcile that, and what would be the basis of that reconciliation. FWIW, I'm of the belief that when we die here on earth there is nothing, no consciousness or experience of passage of time.time, until we are resurrected. We close our eyes here then open them at the resurrection, along with all the others who've gone before us and all those that will come after us, with no knowledge of anything in between. But I don't know what we will be like at that time, we are told we will be as the angels which would mean we are no longer men or women and we may not even recognize each other in relation to our former lives on earth since we will no longer be what we are now. That's the only way I find that I can reconcile these things in my thinking. The bible doesn't tell us that "the dead know nothing". It tells us a lot of things about the dead and one of the things that it says is that they are not watching TV with you or they are not watching what you are watching because they are not in your realm, they are in their realm and as they cannot watch what you are watching you also cannot watch what they are watching and for the same reason we can say "the living know nothing". And the living know nothing but what is happening in their surroundings and if they are awake and it is possible for them to know as they cannot know what happens behind a mountain but those who are living behind the mountain do know. The writer said that the living world is a different realm than the realm of the dead, they are in deferent places. We always remember who we are and our name and our life memories and if we have suffered memory lost before we die the memory will always be intact as soon as we die because the damage that cause the memory lost it was in the physical cells. The moment we die our nemory is restored. Edited February 13 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 10 hours ago, FJK said: One thought: The Bible tells us that the dead know nothing, that seems in conflict with going to be with him (Jesus) before the resurrection. How do you reconcile that, and what would be the basis of that reconciliation. FWIW, I'm of the belief that when we die here on earth there is nothing, no consciousness or experience of passage of time.time, until we are resurrected. We close our eyes here then open them at the resurrection, along with all the others who've gone before us and all those that will come after us, with no knowledge of anything in between. But I don't know what we will be like at that time, we are told we will be as the angels which would mean we are no longer men or women and we may not even recognize each other in relation to our former lives on earth since we will no longer be what we are now. That's the only way I find that I can reconcile these things in my thinking. The bible doesn't not say that but the words of the one who said that can be found in the book of Eclesiastes chapter nine and verse five in the middle of the verse. KJV 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. The author was married to many wives from the nations around Israel and he got to know the culture of these Nations. And he witnessed a lot of things that took place in those Nations but not in his the family he was born and not in his city or in Israel. The people from those Nations were getting in touch with the dead through Mediums and they were asking the dead for advice. The author who was a King and was very wise he was telling the people to seek advice from the wise people who were still living as he was himself. In other words he did not do that himself and he wanted to tell people that his wisdom it was not from getting in touch with the dead and also he was telling the people that when he dies he did not want people to try to get in touch with him seeking advice from him as he was a wise man. He knew about the prohibition in the Law that God instructed the Israelites not to get in touch with the dead through the mediums to do what their neighbor Nations were doing. This also says that the people could get in touch with the dead and asked them advice and God in the Law said not to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.92 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: The bible doesn't tell us that "the dead know nothing". It tells us a lot of things about the dead and one of the things that it says is that they are not watching TV with you or they are not watching what you are watching because they are not in your realm, they are in their realm and as they cannot watch what you are watching you also cannot watch what they are watching and for the same reason we can say "the living know nothing". And the living know nothing but what is happening in their surroundings and if they are awake and it is possible for them to know as they cannot know what happens behind a mountain but those who are living behind the mountain do know. The writer said that the living world is a different realm than the realm of the dead, they are in deferent places. We always remember who we are and our name and our life memories and if we have suffered memory lost before we die the memory will always be intact as soon as we die because the damage that cause the memory lost it was in the physical cells. The moment we die our nemory is restored. If the Bible does not say the dead know nothing why does it say in Ecclesiastes that the dead know nothing? (9:5) It goes on to say that "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." (9:6) which would seem to me to affirm that "the dead know nothing". This is how I understand it but if you know better, tell me what it really means and why it does amd why it was said that way in the first place when talking about death and those who die.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 (edited) 7 hours ago, FJK said: If the Bible does not say the dead know nothing why does it say in Ecclesiastes that the dead know nothing? (9:5) It goes on to say that "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." (9:6) which would seem to me to affirm that "the dead know nothing". This is how I understand it but if you know better, tell me what it really means and why it does amd why it was said that way in the first place when talking about death and those who die.. Those words "the dead know nothing" are not the context of Eclesiastes 9:5 and they are not found within the context of the verse 9:5, they are not found in the bible. 5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, (is the correct translation) neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. In verse 5 the writer says that the people while they lived know that they will not live for ever and the day will come when they will die. The author speaks on his name and he is telling us what he believes and he continues to tell us what he believes about the people who dies about what they know about their future after they died. About their future when they are dead. This is why he said that the people who live know what will happen in their future that they will not live forever and one day will die. Day by day as they live, day by day they are getting closer to that day when they will die. And no one can argue with that. And the writer taking notice of his own beliefs of what he understood about life after death he continues to say that the dead people live where they are in their domain without knowing anything about what will happen to them in their future for sure. That while they lived knowing that many people have died before them and they are still in the realm of the dead and are still in the realm of the dead and there has been not a change in this matter and they do not know anything about what is going to happen to them, as nothing has happened yet. The author knows what is the fate of the Israelites after they die as it is taught in the book of the Law in the book of Leviticus because he is an Israelite himself the Son of King David. That the Israelites after death they were gathered to their Father Abraham and were separated from the dead of the other Nations. And he said that has not changed and if it will change and how it will change the dead know nothing about it. This by it self is a big lie, (to say it is incorrect it has to include ignorance of what his Father said about the same matter and what God taught the people with Moses about life after death but the author is not in ignorance he attempts to bring the element of doubt to what the prophets of God had said because had not happened yet. The promises of God to Abraham had not come to pass yet as the Lanb of God has not been provided yet and for that matter has not been Slain yet.) it may be the belief of the author according to his understanding at that time but this is was not a universal belief or the belief of his ansestors including Abraham and even his father King David who were strongly in disagreement with him or better said he was in disagreement with them as they lived before him and they die having a hope what will happen to them after their departure from the earth when they died. And the author also he is in disagreement with the great men of God who spoke in God's name as to what happens to people after their death, the hope of the dead people for their future as God has put in place. As the prophets of God declared. It seems and by comparing side by side what the people of God said about life after death and they future of anyone after their death before and after the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross that the author of Ecclesiastes was not a man after the heart of God as his father King David was. His was wis, yes indeed he was, but God did not made him to be a prophet for him like his father King David. He was not a prophet of God Almighty and he never said that he was to the contrary he said he speaks for himself and he never said that he speaks in the name of God or even his Father David or Moses. At the end he repented to God for the things he said and he complained to God why the Priesthood disagree with him but they never confronted him to correct him. This also reveals that the Priests disagree with what he said in this matter and that he did not speak on their behalf or on behalf of God. In the Holy Scriptures the prophetic and the scriptures from the disciples of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ himself we learn that with the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross all things about these matter have changed that we have a New order and the old has gone. And we are in the New order right now. The scripture about the Messiah the Christ of God have been fulfilled and the promises made by God to Abraham and to his prophets have come to pass. Edited February 13 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.92 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 @Your closest friendnt, to be sure we're talking about the same thing: Ecclesiastes 9:4 -6 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. " KJV We apparently see this as meaning something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, FJK said: @Your closest friendnt, to be sure we're talking about the same thing: Ecclesiastes 9:4 -6 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. " KJV We apparently see this as meaning something different. @FJK, before we start this discussion I have complied to your request to consider the context that it is relevant to the issues we are discussing and from the context to give a sound meaning to the statement at hand. It's very likely that the thoughts in the passage before us are the thoughts of the Son of David Solomon King of Jerusalem. What are the issues at hand from the statements that he made in chapter 9 verses 4-6 in the KJV. In verse four he talks about the hope of the living, the hope of the people while they still live. ""For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope:" and then he says "for a living dog is better than a dead lion". And then his thoughts and the statement "for a living dog is better than a dead lion". Why a man of his status say a thing like that? Is it that the strong men in his service were useful to him while yet lived, while yet were joined to the living. And now he has to depend on the less glorious men whom he called "the dogs" because the "lions" are dead they are in the realm of the dead, they are cut off from the living. They are in a deferent world, they are in the world of the dead. They are not here on earth to know what is happening in the world of the living just like before they died. And they cannot offer their advice to the living as they were doing before when they lived. The writer raised an issue that was relevant at his time and the time before him having the knowledge that the people of his time (and not only about his time) they were getting in touch with the dead to have their quidance about the things that were happening in the realm of the living. One way through the Mediums who were getting in touch with the dead. Or others believing that the dead stayed around the family of the living family and offer them their protection and their wisdom. The people offered homage to the dead believing they were actively around them. The author's thoughts in that matter is telling us that he does not practice that and that his wisdom is original and is not the wisdom he had received from some dead person. He very strongly opposes this practice. To call upon the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, FJK said: @Your closest friendnt, to be sure we're talking about the same thing: Ecclesiastes 9:4 -6 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. " KJV We apparently see this as meaning something different. The writer wanting to talk about himself and what he believes about himself after his death he said: that the dead have no hope of mixing with the living again and the affair of the living. That was in contrast of the beliefs of the Nations around the Nation of Israel. In this matter he talked about what was written in the book of Leviticus. God cut off the Israelites from worshiping the Angels and keeping a hope in their ancestors that they keep an eye on them and be their protectors after their death. He cut them off the worship of Angels and their hope in their ansestors that their ancestors are with them helping them in this life by giving them their own religious Calendar. And day in and day out it included only the worship of their Lord God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted February 13 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,591 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted February 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said: @FJK, before we start this discussion I have complied to your request to consider the context that it is relevant to the issues we are discussing and from the context to give a sound meaning to the statement at hand. It's very likely that the thoughts in the passage before us are the thoughts of the Son of David Solomon King of Jerusalem. What are the issues at hand from the statements that he made in chapter 9 verses 4-6 in the KJV. In verse four he talks about the hope of the living, the hope of the people while they still live. ""For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope:" and then he says "for a living dog is better than a dead lion". And then his thoughts and the statement "for a living dog is better than a dead lion". Why a man of his status say a thing like that? Is it that the strong men in his service were useful to him while yet lived, while yet were joined to the living. And now he has to depend on the less glorious men whom he called "the dogs" because the "lions" are dead they are in the realm of the dead, they are cut off from the living. They are in a deferent world, they are in the world of the dead. They are not here on earth to know what is happening in the world of the living just like before they died. And they cannot offer their advice to the living as they were doing before when they lived. The writer raised an issue that was relevant at his time and the time before him having the knowledge that the people of his time (and not only about his time) they were getting in touch with the dead to have their quidance about the things that were happening in the realm of the living. One way through the Mediums who were getting in touch with the dead. Or others believing that the dead stayed around the family of the living family and offer them their protection and their wisdom. The people offered homage to the dead believing they were actively around them. The author's thoughts in that matter is telling us that he does not practice that and that his wisdom is original and is not the wisdom he had received from some dead person. He very strongly opposes this practice. To call upon the dead. Shalom, @Your closest friendnt and @FJK. Gentlemen, the answer to this dilemma, imo, is that we have the notion propagated that our lives must be continuous between our birth and eternity. Most cannot accept that there may be a DISCONTINUITY in our lives between one's death and one's resurrection. As a social norm, we cannot entertain the concept that "death is TEMPORARILY the end!" Most have this tenacious belief that "we MUST continue to exist," and therefore, "we must GO SOMEWHERE when we die." And most, even unbelievers, say that this "somewhere" is "Heaven." I submit that this is NOT what we learn from the Holy Scriptures as written. Instead, this concept has come down to us, NOT from the Scriptures, but rather from Greek philosophy derived from Greek mythology! This Greek mythology was introduced into Christian theology in the late 100s to the mid 300s A.D. and has been propagated in Christian theology ever since. This grew even in the 14th to the 16th Centuries when Christian theology was being solidified into a belief system and the Bible was being translated into the English language, that most did not have the support from the "Church" to question! SomeWHEN along the lines, certain terms were redefined to mean something different. "Heaven" no longer meant "the sky," and "soul" no longer meant "an air-breathing creature." Now, "Heaven" is defined as "God's abode" which exists either in another dimension of reality-a "spiritual realm"-or is outside the boundaries of the known Universe-a "third SPATIAL heaven!" Now, a "soul" is the "immaterial part of a human being" that exists on another plane than does the "physical body" which we temporarily wear as one wears a suit! Other terms have undergone such a transformation, as well. I started to talk about this back in the topic about a "Paradigm Shift in Christian Thinking Over 2000 Years" (or even earlier?) But, contrary to popular opinion, the Scriptures do NOT support us "going to Heaven when we die!" Instead, we are to be anticipating the RESURRECTION! And, according to the Apostle (Missionary) Paul, this will not just be a RESURRECTION but also a TRANSFORMATION of us! And, if one studies out the contrasts in the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians, one will see that the word "spiritual" attached to the word "body" does NOT mean an "airy body" or an "ethereal body," but a STRONGER physical body! And, one should understand that we don't "HAVE" a body; we ARE a body! Currently, as long as we live, each one of us is an "air-breathing creature" - a "SOUL," just as Adam was and our Lord Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was and is! Edited February 13 by Retrobyter to add a word for clarity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.92 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 FWIW, False doctrine creeping into the Church doesn't just mean demonic or demonically inspired doctrine (although that is certainly false doctrine) but can also be a belief in a misunderstanding of true doctrine to the extent that it replaces it and becomes taught in place of it. We should always remember that each year that passes makes us more distant in time from the presence of Christ on earth and those things he taught and there have been thousands of years gone by since he left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13 On 1/30/2024 at 11:30 AM, Know Jah said: Angels4U I fail to see where the bible refers to heaven as God. Think it refers to heaven as the atmosphere above When we talk about Heaven we should keep in mind not the expance above the earth including the the earth's atmosphere but we should think about the Heavenly world or realm that existed before the earth was created. Which host all the Heavenly host the Angels and everything that there is in it. Repeat that it was in existence before the Creation of the world. Therefore it is not a physical place a place that was created at the time of the creation of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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