Daniel 2

[Guest Stormy Monday]

The correct sequence of kingdoms predates the one that claims Rome is the legs of iron.  It goes back to the time of Josephus which is...

Babylon = Head of Gold
Mede's = Arms of silver
Persian' s = Thighs of brass
Greeks = Legs of iron.

The reformers were convinced that since Rome crucified Christ, persecuted 1st century Christians, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and then persecuted Christians for defecting from the faith, they believed Rome would also emerge as the end-time beast of Daniel and Revelation.  I believe the reformers were wrong about this.

The only thing we agree on in Daniel 2 is that Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon is the head of gold.  After Babylon...

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Most people believe that Medo-Persia form the arms of silver or the 'inferior kingdom.'

The Medes and Persians
Secularist and many Protestants believe Cyrus the Persian conquered Babylon, but scriptures say that Darius the Mede invaded and conquered Babylon!  I put my faith on Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah's prophecies.

The reason for this is that there's very little 'secular history' on Darius but plenty on Cyrus. If they were to agree with the bible instead of secular history, that would blow a hole in the revived Roman empire theory! RRE - Something they've been teaching for centuries.

The Medes were superior warriors compared to the Persians, but the Persians were better engineers and nation builders than the Medes. They both had their own languages and 'kingdoms'. Cyrus married Darius' sister. (Some say his cousin, some say his daughter) I believe Cyrus married Darius' sister. (Ahasuerus was their father). The two kingdoms were confederate but did NOT merge into one AKA 'the Ram' until at least 6 years AFTER Darius (and the Medes) invaded and took Babylon at age 62...
Daniel 5:31

"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Darius is the one who first went into battle because it was the 'custom of that day' for the 'elder' to be first in battle. He was older than his brother-in-law Cyrus.

The Median kingdom - the INFERIOR kingdom - occupied Babylon for about 6 years (there are several scriptures that prove this) before the Persians under Cyrus had what I would call a 'family coup' where only about 100 people died to unify and control the kingdom.

Darius rules!
Daniel 6:1 "It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;"

Daniel 9:1 "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;"

Zec. 7"1 "And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;

Ezra 6:15 "And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king."

Then, after the coup, they combined their efforts under Cyrus which became the 'Ram.'  Darius was then placed as a vassal over the northern province of the kingdom and Cyrus the southern part.

The inferior kingdom
The only thing said about the second kingdom is that it's inferior to Babylon. Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not! The Median Empire was not only much smaller but was also short lived enduring only 6 years.  Some of the 'big shot' interpreters claim this is a cultural or religious inferiority.  The word 'inferior' proves otherwise.

The word INFERIOR...
The word inferior is the word "arah" which means earth, world, and ground.

For some reason I'm unable to post an image.

H772 - 'ăraʿ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

It's translated EARTH in Daniel 2 but it's coupled with the word BELOW which means 'TO MAKE LESS'. Gesenius says, "the ground, and adverb below" - inferior.  The interlinear uses the word, 'earthward'.

Inferior means 'less land' and that rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the second empire since it was 3-4 times the land size of Babylon.  It wasn't 'land inferior' to Babylon.  The Median Empire was not only short-lived but was also much smaller making it the inferior kingdom.

In both Greek and Hebrew inferior means,
to make less,
inferior,
to fall short,
below

So where is Cyrus and the Persians?
Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Darius and the Medes, NOT Cyrus the Persian.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, i.e. (Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

After reading the above, people usually quote Daniel 8:19-21
Daniel 8:19-21

"And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia."

Daniel 8:3 shows that the Ram emerged from two kingdoms. The smaller horn is the INFERIOR kingdom of the Medes which rose first, and the larger horn that rose afterwards, the kingdom of the Persians.  Then the two eventually merged into ONE kingdom - the Ram.

The Legs of Iron

Since the Medes as the 'arms of silver' and the Persians the 'thighs of bronze', the fourth kingdom symbolized by the 'legs of iron' CANNOT BE ROME but Greece.

Its end-time offspring, "the toes mingled with iron and clay" come from the Grecian Empire which is in accord with Daniel 8's little horn which is said to come from the realm of GRECIA, and Daniel 11:2.  That Empire as well as the others depicted in the statue, didn't cover Rome or Europe as they were Mid-East Empires.  Rome is excluded as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 and cannot be the origin of either the two or ten horned beast, or Daniel 7's 'fearful and dreadful' fourth beast.

The toes MINGLED with Iron and Clay.
The word MIXED OR MINGLED used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab."  It means mixed and denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius) This word is not associate with ROME, ITALY.

H6151 - ʿăraḇ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Daniel 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar much more about the iron and clay than any of the other kingdoms because it depicts the end-time kingdom that the Lord returns to destroy.  The word MIXED actually describes the people, the origin, and the geographical area from which the end-time anti-Christ would arise. The description of the iron and clay describes the Arab/Muslim world far better than Rome or the EU.

"And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."

Daniel says the kingdom would, 'subdue all things, be divided and not cleave to one another, partly strong and partly broken, and mixed (arab/intermarried) with the seed of men. Islam has subdued nearly every religion in the Middle East.

That's not true of Rome or the EU but is certainly true of Arab Islamic tribes and clans scattered across the countries of the Middle East. Rome, Italy, and the EU, have strong alliances and are all a peaceful coalition of nations.  They're more unified than the Arab World which isn't united at all! Arab/Muslim countries throughout the Mid-East and Northern Africa have always been divided.

The NLT uses the word 'intermarried' instead of mixed.  The word Arab is today a variation of the word 'crossed.' 
 

Edited February 15 by Stormy Monday

[Marilyn C]

Hi Stormy, thought you might like this diagram I did.

[Charlie744]

On 2/8/2024 at 9:20 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Stormy, thought you might like this diagram I did.

Legs and feet are the 4th kingdom of iron. 
 

The 4th kingdom does have a non-metal element within it but it is not a separate kingdom and God used metal (only) to reveal each of the kingdoms and the # of kingdoms. 
 

Agree this 4th kingdom will be divided but not as EVERYONE thinks.

1) The image is to reveal His plan of salvation through these 4 kingdoms… the kingdoms are not the story. 
 

2) Almost ALL of Daniel represents events that take place between 606 BC and approximately 500 AD. Yes, there will be language that talks about His second coming, but only in a “big picture”way. 
 

3) What causes the 4th kingdom to be divided?

4) When is the 4th kingdom divided?

5) What two elements are being divided and why?

6) These questions are ALL found in chapter 2. But  2, like a few other chapters in Daniel (7,8,9,11), are purposely constructed in two sections (the verses are not presented in chronological order at all): 

  a) there is the “Dream” sequence (however, this can be thought of as the “summary” view of the events, and a separate section labeled as a “interpretation” view (however, this can be thought of as the “details” view where they need to be placed WITHIN the “summary” like verses. 
 

b) you will find in these chapters that the “interpretation sequence” verses are relevant or will be placed in the 4th kingdom only. This is THE most important kingdom in His prophecies - which also reveals that Daniel is emphasizing the most important events and timing in Daniel- the coming of the Messiah and His plan of salvation. Daniel is NOT an end time series of prophecies. 
 

This is something to consider @Marilyn C@Sisterin our discussion of chapter 7. Chapter 2 is God’s blueprint for ALL of Daniel and if we get 2 wrong, then ALL other chapters (written in Hebrew) will be wrong and will also send those misinterpretations straight into Revelation. 
 

 c) verses 2:41- 43 are “interpretation” sequence verses and they specifically provide details on the divided 4th kingdom of Rome. 
 

Hope you do not mind these comments- but they are critical to our discussion on chapter 7 and beyond. 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Legs and feet are the 4th kingdom of iron. 
 

The 4th kingdom does have a non-metal element within it but it is not a separate kingdom and God used metal (only) to reveal each of the kingdoms and the # of kingdoms. 
 

 

This is something to consider @Marilyn C@Sisterin our discussion of chapter 7. Chapter 2 is God’s blueprint for ALL of Daniel and if we get 2 wrong, then ALL other chapters (written in Hebrew) will be wrong and will also send those misinterpretations straight into Revelation. 
 

 

Yes, Charlie, Dan. 2 Image is foundational to going on further. 

The kingdoms names are - Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Rome & Divided kingdom. All in God`s word except the last one. All of them have been judged (Dan. 5: 25 - 31) except the last one.

The Kingdoms are described as `body parts,` - head, arms and chest, belly and thighs, legs, & feet.

The strength of those kingdoms is described as metals and clay - gold, silver, bronze, iron, iron and clay.

 

The Divided Kingdom is NOT Rome or revived Rome. Man cannot revive what God has Judged. The first four kingdoms have had all their (Political) rulerships judged because they are no more, dead, in the grave. 

 

But God has given us scriptures for the Divided Kingdom.

[Charlie744]

28 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes, Charlie, Dan. 2 Image is foundational to going on further. 

The kingdoms names are - Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Rome & Divided kingdom. All in God`s word except the last one. All of them have been judged (Dan. 5: 25 - 31) except the last one.

The Kingdoms are described as `body parts,` - head, arms and chest, belly and thighs, legs, & feet.

The strength of those kingdoms is described as metals and clay - gold, silver, bronze, iron, iron and clay.

 

The Divided Kingdom is NOT Rome or revived Rome. Man cannot revive what God has Judged. The first four kingdoms have had all their (Political) rulerships judged because they are no more, dead, in the grave. 

 

But God has given us scriptures for the Divided Kingdom.

Okay, then are you saying there are 4 or 5 kingdoms?

I am not sure I understand your reference to chapter 5… God certainly did judge Belshazzar … those verses are speaking about him, not the 4 kingdoms. 
 

But there maybe a two step process here: How many kingdoms did God call out to reveal His plan of salvation, and secondly, if the 4th kingdom is agreed to be pagan Rome (where all the important events are found- Arrival of Messiah, the cross, etc.,) then what caused the 4th kingdom to be divided and what is that “divided” kingdom. 
 

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Okay, then are you saying there are 4 or 5 kingdoms?

I am not sure I understand your reference to chapter 5… God certainly did judge Belshazzar … those verses are speaking about him, not the 4 kingdoms. 
 

But there maybe a two step process here: How many kingdoms did God call out to reveal His plan of salvation, and secondly, if the 4th kingdom is agreed to be pagan Rome (where all the important events are found- Arrival of Messiah, the cross, etc.,) then what caused the 4th kingdom to be divided and what is that “divided” kingdom. 
 

 

Hi Charlie,

Glad you are thinking and working through this important issue.

There are 5 body parts, therefore 5 kingdoms before the Lord finally gets rid of the Gentiles ruling.

I mentioned Dan. 5 as the example of God judging the kingdoms. God has judged four kingdoms already and one to come.

`MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it;

TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting;

PERES: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.` (Dan. 5: 26 - 28)

 

You said - `How many kingdoms did God call out to reveal His plan of salvation?` Well, not sure what you mean, perhaps you can explain further for me please? 

As I see it God made Israel to rule the nations and when they rebelled (which God knew they would) God has given the Gentiles rulership for a set time. There has been 4 world (in a general sense) rulers and there is one now forming.

Before there ever was Babylon etc there were two sons of Abraham. The son of the bondwoman produced the Arabs and they have been in constant enmity against Israel and still are. That is the focus of God regarding Israel and the nations. 

[Charlie744]

24 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Charlie,

Glad you are thinking and working through this important issue.

There are 5 body parts, therefore 5 kingdoms before the Lord finally gets rid of the Gentiles ruling.

I mentioned Dan. 5 as the example of God judging the kingdoms. God has judged four kingdoms already and one to come.

`MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it;

TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting;

PERES: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.` (Dan. 5: 26 - 28)

 

You said - `How many kingdoms did God call out to reveal His plan of salvation?` Well, not sure what you mean, perhaps you can explain further for me please? 

As I see it God made Israel to rule the nations and when they rebelled (which God knew they would) God has given the Gentiles rulership for a set time. There has been 4 world (in a general sense) rulers and there is one now forming.

Before there ever was Babylon etc there were two sons of Abraham. The son of the bondwoman produced the Arabs and they have been in constant enmity against Israel and still are. That is the focus of God regarding Israel and the nations. 

I understand your comment. But there were many nations and kingdoms both before and after the book of Daniel. God is only calling out 4 kingdoms to reveal His plan of salvation. We do not need to add to or subtract from His plan … He has written the book of Daniel and He has included in Daniel ALL the actors and events within these 12 chapters that is needed. The “blueprint” for revealing His plan of salvation is found in chapter 2. But He will also expand and enlarge on those 4 kingdoms in the later chapters—- but the 4 kingdoms will never change. 
 

God’s plan of salvation is found in the book of Daniel. It begins with the Jews being taken to Babylon for their punishment. This is at 606  BC. From that time onward, God will bring forward the dreams and visions and prophecies that will take place WITHIN AND THROUGH these 4 kingdoms that He brought forward (out of the sea). 
 

Chapter 5 speaks about the end of Babylon while it is ruled by Belshazzar. He is the actor that is judged and brings to an end the 1st kingdom. God is not judging the 4 kingdoms in chapter 5. He is judging the 1st kingdom and Belshazzar only…. Nothing to do with the next 3 kingdoms. 
 

Why do you say there are 5 body parts? I believe I mentioned the body parts associated with each kingdom. With the exception of Babylon, the next 3 kingdoms are clearly identified by their metal type and the two parts of a man’s body in each of the last 3 kingdoms.

Can you see that?

 

[Marilyn C]

35 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I understand your comment. But there were many nations and kingdoms both before and after the book of Daniel. God is only calling out 4 kingdoms to reveal His plan of salvation.

 

The Great Image is of World Rulers of Gentiles.