Don't be deceived

[Charlie744]

40 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Well Charley.As you can see from the op,there are many interpretations that are false .Some people actually don't read the book of Daniel but would Insted read commentaries about the prophecies of Daniel preferring to not hear the word which was given.In a case such as this, one can be easily mislead and can mislead other people as well.

Which do you prefer to read Charlie, the word of God or commentaries wich can be false interpretations which some believe to be history?

If you interested more in the word of God itself then who is it that actually sets up the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel?

Have you read about it?

 

Ok, I guess we can cut to the chase here. I completed a 5 year study on Daniel. Prior to the beginning I had not read Daniel and was only familiar with the cute children’s stories - lion den scene, handwriting on the wall, etc. 

Consequently, it was necessary that I read the commentaries by the leading commentators / interpreters that have produced “today’s accepted interruptions.” 
 

However, I found there was NO consensus among these brilliant, academic, scholarly theologians. This really surprised me since they all had access to the same Scriptures- especially Daniel. 
 

I found there may have been two major camps on most of the critical verses. Therefore, I had to become familiar with both views and try and determine if one or the other made sense or perhaps neither had a reasonable interpretation. 
 

For me, I believe most of today’s interpretations for those “critical” verses are wrong on both sides of the fence. Despite the two different set of interpretations, the common denominator was that both camps insisted on using a “historical” approach to interpret Daniel. Meaning, they attempted to interpret Daniel by looking to our history books to confirm their interpretations. In the first few chapters they can easily be found to match the known kingdoms and kings- Alexander, Cyrus, Babylon and of course Rome. But when the later chapters in Daniel become more spiritual or symbolic, and they (events and actors) in Daniel no longer can be matched to those in our history books, they are thrown some 2000 years into the future and declared they have yet to come see place. But that is so wrong!

And unfortunately, the most important and messianic chapter in the OT- Daniel chapter 9, is the one that has been grossly misinterpreted- intentionally or not. 
 

To sum it up - only when I left the attempts to match the important verses to our history books and tried to see if and how they spoke of the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation, did I discover a completely new set of interpretations. And these interpretations were / are not on- offs, if you will, they offer a consistent set of interpretations from Daniel 1-12. They all speak of His story. 
 

So, I believe I answered your first question ( sorry for being so long winded). 
 

Now, since you asked a very specific question (which is so, so important in Daniel), AND by ONLY answering it in a few comments WITHOUT providing all the supporting/ related verses that go along with this particular interpretation, I will give you my interpretation on the AOD- the abomination that causes desolate ( we can agree to disagree- no problem since it will be so difficult to bring everything in to discuss this). 
 

Three important points:

1) what is the “abomination”, 

2) what is meant be “desolation,”

3) timing of this event - both sides (when the abomination took place and the length of the desolation.

 

ABOMINATION 

Almost all commentators contend this is a “physical” destruction of something- usually the Temple. It is one of 3: the destruction or the defilement of the Temple by Antiochus? The destruction of the second Temple in 70 AD, or the mythical 3rd Temple still yet to be built. 
 

But I do not believe any of these have any merit. First, the Temple was already completely destroyed by Babylon. Secondly, the cross did away with the Levitical system, the need for animal sacrifices, the need for a Temple, etc. After the cross, their mission was fulfilled and of no further importance. And regardless of how the Jews still reject their Messiah, it is no longer important to God.

So, whatever this event is that can rise to the level of an “abomination”, it MUST EXCEED ANYTHING THST HAS YET TO BE SEEN DURING THE JEWISH HISTORY (they have been guilty of disobeying God and turn to idolatry so many times- this “transgression” must be unbelievably horrific. 
 

And it is! The “abomination” is the Jews rejecting their Messiah and crucifying Him on the cross. This is the most horrific, sinful act against their God that anyone could imagine.

DESOLATION 

So, in the past (Babylon), God completely destroyed Jerusalem, His people, the Temple… everything was either completely destroyed or taken away to Babylon. The Jews were effectively removed from the face and the earth and Jerusalem was gone- all because they continued their disobey their God. But now, they crucified God, consequently, this level of transgression would require a much greater punishment. Because of the Cross, God would remove Himself from His people for the next 2000 years. Their God would now turn His face away from them. He would become completely “desolate” to His people. Nothing could be more of a punishment than this . They have been without their God for rejecting Him and then crucifying Him. 
 

So, the “abomination” (cross) is the event that caused their complete “desolation” from their God for over 2000 years. 
 

TIMING

As a result, this is NOT an end time event. It represents the most horrific event in the history of the world. 
 

And to go back to my initial comments, the book of Daniel is all about the coming Messiah (first advent), and setting up His kingdom (church). Daniel is not a history book to be matched to our history books. He will include only those events and actors WITHIN His plan of salvation. He will also exclude any actual events or actors that can be found in our history books that are NOT found within His plan of salvation. 
 

This is ONLY one of the critical new interpretations found in Daniel (my findings).

Hope this makes sense. Daniel is all about Him and it was written to and for the Jews for them to read, study and await their coming Messiah. Approximately 80-90 % of Daniel covers the period from 606 BC to 500 AD when the little horn (papacy) of  Daniel 7,8 comes to replace pagan Rome. 

 

 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok, I guess we can cut to the chase here. I completed a 5 year study on Daniel. Prior to the beginning I had not read Daniel and was only familiar with the cute children’s stories - lion den scene, handwriting on the wall, etc. 

Consequently, it was necessary that I read the commentaries by the leading commentators / interpreters that have produced “today’s accepted interruptions.” 
 

However, I found there was NO consensus among these brilliant, academic, scholarly theologians. This really surprised me since they all had access to the same Scriptures- especially Daniel. 
 

I found there may have been two major camps on most of the critical verses. Therefore, I had to become familiar with both views and try and determine if one or the other made sense or perhaps neither had a reasonable interpretation. 
 

For me, I believe most of today’s interpretations for those “critical” verses are wrong on both sides of the fence. Despite the two different set of interpretations, the common denominator was that both camps insisted on using a “historical” approach to interpret Daniel. Meaning, they attempted to interpret Daniel by looking to our history books to confirm their interpretations. In the first few chapters they can easily be found to match the known kingdoms and kings- Alexander, Cyrus, Babylon and of course Rome. But when the later chapters in Daniel become more spiritual or symbolic, and they (events and actors) in Daniel no longer can be matched to those in our history books, they are thrown some 2000 years into the future and declared they have yet to come see place. But that is so wrong!

And unfortunately, the most important and messianic chapter in the OT- Daniel chapter 9, is the one that has been grossly misinterpreted- intentionally or not. 
 

To sum it up - only when I left the attempts to match the important verses to our history books and tried to see if and how they spoke of the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation, did I discover a completely new set of interpretations. And these interpretations were / are not on- offs, if you will, they offer a consistent set of interpretations from Daniel 1-12. They all speak of His story. 
 

So, I believe I answered your first question ( sorry for being so long winded). 
 

Now, since you asked a very specific question (which is so, so important in Daniel), AND by ONLY answering it in a few comments WITHOUT providing all the supporting/ related verses that go along with this particular interpretation, I will give you my interpretation on the AOD- the abomination that causes desolate ( we can agree to disagree- no problem since it will be so difficult to bring everything in to discuss this). 
 

Three important points:

1) what is the “abomination”, 

2) what is meant be “desolation,”

3) timing of this event - both sides (when the abomination took place and the length of the desolation.

 

ABOMINATION 

Almost all commentators contend this is a “physical” destruction of something- usually the Temple. It is one of 3: the destruction or the defilement of the Temple by Antiochus? The destruction of the second Temple in 70 AD, or the mythical 3rd Temple still yet to be built. 
 

But I do not believe any of these have any merit. First, the Temple was already completely destroyed by Babylon. Secondly, the cross did away with the Levitical system, the need for animal sacrifices, the need for a Temple, etc. After the cross, their mission was fulfilled and of no further importance. And regardless of how the Jews still reject their Messiah, it is no longer important to God.

So, whatever this event is that can rise to the level of an “abomination”, it MUST EXCEED ANYTHING THST HAS YET TO BE SEEN DURING THE JEWISH HISTORY (they have been guilty of disobeying God and turn to idolatry so many times- this “transgression” must be unbelievably horrific. 
 

And it is! The “abomination” is the Jews rejecting their Messiah and crucifying Him on the cross. This is the most horrific, sinful act against their God that anyone could imagine.

DESOLATION 

So, in the past (Babylon), God completely destroyed Jerusalem, His people, the Temple… everything was either completely destroyed or taken away to Babylon. The Jews were effectively removed from the face and the earth and Jerusalem was gone- all because they continued their disobey their God. But now, they crucified God, consequently, this level of transgression would require a much greater punishment. Because of the Cross, God would remove Himself from His people for the next 2000 years. Their God would now turn His face away from them. He would become completely “desolate” to His people. Nothing could be more of a punishment than this . They have been without their God for rejecting Him and then crucifying Him. 
 

So, the “abomination” (cross) is the event that caused their complete “desolation” from their God for over 2000 years. 
 

TIMING

As a result, this is NOT an end time event. It represents the most horrific event in the history of the world. 
 

And to go back to my initial comments, the book of Daniel is all about the coming Messiah (first advent), and setting up His kingdom (church). Daniel is not a history book to be matched to our history books. He will include only those events and actors WITHIN His plan of salvation. He will also exclude any actual events or actors that can be found in our history books that are NOT found within His plan of salvation. 
 

This is ONLY one of the critical new interpretations found in Daniel (my findings).

Hope this makes sense. Daniel is all about Him and it was written to and for the Jews for them to read, study and await their coming Messiah. Approximately 80-90 % of Daniel covers the period from 606 BC to 500 AD when the little horn (papacy) of  Daniel 7,8 comes to replace pagan Rome. 

 

 

 

So you believe Daniels prophecy concerning the time of the end is not end times?

What led you to believe the following verse about the time of the end  and the verses thereafter took place when Christ was crucified?

 

 

Daniel 11:40

⁴⁰ And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

[RdJ]

For years I have wanted to find some easy quick explanation. It's all so complicated. If I read Daniel I don't even think oh thats Peter the Great or whatever cause I was always too lazy to pay attention with history class. Would be so nice if someone did all the effort and said: this is so and so, that is so and so. For instance Amir Tsarfati knows everything and this country is that country. But no simple text. Only endless sermons you have to listen to or a whole book. Pffffff. Why cant they just for instance change the Bible? They changed God's Name. Just turned YHWH into the Lord, so why cant they say Iran instead of Persia and stuff like that or king of the North and then this may be so and so or Russia.

But now finally yesterday yay!! I found a lovely simple easy explanation on Quora. Putin is the king of the North. The king of the South is America and England. What???? Thats not even south of Israel and they help them. My goodness. It was from a JW. Don't they have JW's in America? Where do they place the JW's then? That's impossible. Maybe tilt the earth -90 degrees. Pffffffff.

Edited February 23 by Renskedejonge

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So you saying that Paul is wrong and he will not be gathered to Christ at his coming?

No, I'm saying your claims are wrong, and I gave the Scripture that explains what Paul was talking about.  Apparently you didn't read the verses, or just dismissed them.   When Paul wrote about "being gathered to Christ" he was referring to receiving his glorified immortal resurrection body.  Do you know what that is?  Seems you have no idea.

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

2 Thes 12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Once again you have erred in the citation. It is 2 Thess 2:1.  NOT 1:2.  I corrected you already, and you do it again???!!!

Seems you're not one for detail.

This verse tells us the gathering of the living believers will be at the Second Advent, which is after the Tribulation.

I'm still waiting for your explanation of where the souls of believers so after death.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

11 hours ago,  FreeGrace said: 

I don't deal.  If you want to PROVE your claims, then cite the references, if you actually have any.

Since you keep "forgetting" to do that, I suspect that you really don't have any.

Ok,you don't want to hear the word of God as written by the prophet Daniel ,then no one will force you.

You just proved that you don't have any specific verses from Daniel because I challenged you to provide specific verses and you respond with more nonsense.

I asked for specific verses and you claim that I "dont want to hear the word of God as weritten by the prophet Daniel".  Why would I ask for specific verses (that you apparently don't have) if I didn't want to hear the word of god?  You continue to make no sense.

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You can continue reading false doctrines written by non prophets of God.

Why didn't you just provide what I asked for.  I have no idea which verses in Daniel you may be thinking of, so I asked for which ones.  

And you couldn't even do that.  You have proved that you have no intention of having an adult serious discussion.

So, I'll give you one more chance.  Provide the verses you want me to read.

[Shilohsfoal]

9 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, I'm saying your claims are wrong, and I gave the Scripture that explains what Paul was talking about.  Apparently you didn't read the verses, or just dismissed them.   When Paul wrote about "being gathered to Christ" he was referring to receiving his glorified immortal resurrection body.  Do you know what that is?  Seems you have no idea.

Once again you have erred in the citation. It is 2 Thess 2:1.  NOT 1:2.  I corrected you already, and you do it again???!!!

Seems you're not one for detail.

This verse tells us the gathering of the living believers will be at the Second Advent, which is after the Tribulation.

I'm still waiting for your explanation of where the souls of believers so after death.

Yes I understand what gathered to Christ means.

It Means when Christ comes,Them that are his are gathered to him.They have already received their new bodies when they come up out of their graves.Then they are then gathered to Christ as Paul had said.

 

Mathew 24

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Shilohsfoal]

44 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, I'm saying your claims are wrong, and I gave the Scripture that explains what Paul was talking about.  Apparently you didn't read the verses, or just dismissed them.   When Paul wrote about "being gathered to Christ" he was referring to receiving his glorified immortal resurrection body.  Do you know what that is?  Seems you have no idea.

Once again you have erred in the citation. It is 2 Thess 2:1.  NOT 1:2.  I corrected you already, and you do it again???!!!

Seems you're not one for detail.

This verse tells us the gathering of the living believers will be at the Second Advent, which is after the Tribulation.

I'm still waiting for your explanation of where the souls of believers so after death.

Jesus said they will be in their graves when they hear his voice.He didnt say they will be coming from heaven when they hear his voice.They are buried when he comes just like Paul is buried now.

 

John 5:28-29

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Edited February 23 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

12 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You just proved that you don't have any specific verses from Daniel because I challenged you to provide specific verses and you respond with more nonsense.

I asked for specific verses and you claim that I "dont want to hear the word of God as weritten by the prophet Daniel".  Why would I ask for specific verses (that you apparently don't have) if I didn't want to hear the word of god?  You continue to make no sense.

Why didn't you just provide what I asked for.  I have no idea which verses in Daniel you may be thinking of, so I asked for which ones.  

And you couldn't even do that.  You have proved that you have no intention of having an adult serious discussion.

So, I'll give you one more chance.  Provide the verses you want me to read.

I have the verse which shows exactly who places the abomination of desolation.What I'm proving is you are arguing about something you know nothing about.You won't even read Daniels prophecy.You don't see anything special about what a prophet may have said .You would rather rely on commentaries.

[FreeGrace]

41 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Yes I understand what gathered to Christ means.

It Means when Christ comes,Them that are his are gathered to him.They have already received their new bodies when they come up out of their graves.Then they are then gathered to Christ as Paul had said. 

Read 1 Thess 4:13-17.  The souls of dead believers return with Christ (Rev 19) and they receive their new immortal bodies BEFORE the living believers who will be "caught up" with THEM in the air.  Also read 1 Cor 15:52 about the living believers who will "be changed in the twinkling of an eye".  Same event.

So it is clear that you do NOT understand where the souls of believers who have died are after death.  Sad.  They are all in heaven.

41 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Mathew 24

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Refers to all the living believers.  

[FreeGrace]

41 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Jesus said they will be in their graves when they hear his voice.

He was obviously referring to their dead bodies which will be resurrected.  Do you think Paul was lying when he wrote 2 Cor 5:6 and 8?

41 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

He didnt say they will be coming from heaven when they hear his voice.They are buried when he comes just like Paul is buried now.

So you believe in "soul sleep" apparently.  Another false doctrine from the SDA.

I PROVED that the souls are in heaven.  So you are rejecting the truth of Scripture.

41 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

John 5:28-29

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

What's in the grave is a dead body.  Which will be resurrected and the souls will be joined to the new resurrected body.