TrueFollowerOfChrist Posted March 25 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,049 Content Per Day: 1.61 Reputation: 595 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, Neighbor said: Hi, Many laws have nothing to do with morality, but instead are rules of order. Systems for accomplishing what those in charge want accomplished, in the manner they want them to be done. One can make immoral actions illegal for sure, but no law will stop them from occurring, no matter how severe the punishment. Most laws pertaining to physical acts of immorality that are Biblical in principle are violated day and night, either in acts or in the thoughts of humans. All are guilty. That of course is the heart of the reason behind the gospel of our Lord and savior Yeshua is it not? That we are separated, irreconcilably so, from God; yet God has through the willing sacrifice made by Yeshua reconciled that which is otherwise irreconcilable. His having already done so at the cross at Calvary. Christians that fear persecutions have a greater (stronger) fear coming within them I am afraid, for it is coming. Maranatha! I certainly agree with your post for the most part. You're right that many laws actually have nothing to do with morality. In my opinion many laws are politically motivated based on those in power trying to enforce their will. Your also right that laws are not a deterrent to crime. However laws make sure that criminals are punished. Even if laws are not a deterrent, what is the alternative? NOT creating laws and legalizing everything? Laws are necessary. No society in all human history lived without laws as far as I know. I will say this which I think you would agree. Change is needed on the heart regardless of what laws may exist. I've always said ( although maybe not on here ) that the best way to transform society and make a country free and safe is to change hearts. NO amount of laws will MAKE people accept Jesus or follow God's law. But if we show love to our neighbor and each other, others will see our actions and the gospel message will be more receptive to people. If people are serving Christ, it won't matter what laws the are or aren't, people will be more kind, compassionate, hospitable, generous, etc. Love will transform the world and make it a place everyone wants to live in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted March 25 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 958 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,655 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,084 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted March 25 I had an uncle, a very well versed Christian, who thought laws to be unnecessary if all followed our Lord Jesus as we should ( perfectly). He would say that traffic signal lights were only there because of the evil in individual hearts, that we should all be able to perfectly share the road and alternate passage through intersections. I thought that interesting, until I realized it was the reasoning behind his ignoring them on occasion when he felt it unnecessary to stop at a red light- Whoa Nellie! Talk about where the rubber meets the road- people would on many an occasion at an intersection salute him for his having taken that stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted March 25 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 72 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,225 Content Per Day: 7.08 Reputation: 13,235 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Online Share Posted March 25 8 hours ago, Michael37 said: Hi @Questioning Friendly word of advice: If you pursue that line here you will be moved to the Outer Court as a non-conformist who disagrees with the Worthy Statement Of Faith as quoted below: We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God. Indeed. If my own point hasn't been clear enough for some in the topic, it's simply summarized in the following way: I have nothing to do with the cares of this world being the pursuit of dominance, power, wealth, and the like. Politics are the contrivance of men, and there is no scriptural mandate to pursue such a thing. Political pursuit by necessity is oppositional, meaning that enemies are required; this is antithetical to the teaching of Christ and His apostles. There is a religion that is not pure in the sight of God, being a religion that looks after the cares of the world. Because of this, it is accordingly stained by the world. It is not the faith of Christ. The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is an example of such an umbrella religion, and the NAR is the driving force behind the Christian Nationalist movement. CN is an outgrowth of the Christian Identity movement. Neither is Christian in word or deed. That sums up my view of the subject matter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questioning Posted March 25 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 79 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/02/2021 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 25 7 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said: Yes. I find it strange when people say Christians should not try to legislate morality. WHY NOT? The alternative is letting the godless legislate immorality. I will try to sum this up. This post shows that you and the movement are authoritarian. And that, coupled with the belief that you have the correct interptetation of the Bible, therefore the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, makes you and the movement DANGEROUS. You want CONTROL! NOT FREEDOM! I grew up in a fundamentalist family and community, and graduated from a Christian college, and worked in Christian agencies for 20 years. But there were things about our faith and the bible that did not add up. I became a student of how we got our Bible, and of the history of religions, including the Christian religion going back to the Sumerians and their cuneiform writtings which are the oldest known of mankind. These go back several centuries before the earliest Hebrew writings. All evidence led to my believing the creation and flood stories in Genesis were plagiarisms of Sumerian writings, which indicate gods (plural) created man in their image. Not just one god. There is no way after my years of study I can now believe the Bible is inerrant. Also in my study it was discovered the story of Jesus is plagiarism. However, I am a follower of Jesus because, as a behavioral and social scientist, I found his teaching is VALID. It is universal truth. Scientific evidence shows his precepts for mankind builds more harmony in society. Loving neighbor as self leads to the wellbeing of mankind through building each other up. It is helping everyone feel worthwhile which leads to a more healthy society. It is the antithesis of the doctrine of original sin, which I believe was a clever scheme to get humans to believe they are inferior, and will always need a "king" and "savior" to guide them. It has worked with many unaware people for thousands of years. That is why authoritiarians are against the broad education of the masses. After studying the Sumerian stories, I believe the scheme started even prior to the Hebrew writings. Jesus was suggesting a better way, and it got him killed. I am sure you are well meaning, but you and the movement are wanting to keep humans in subjection to your beliefs. And millions of others believe the subjection ideology is truth because it has been in circulation for thousands of Years. We can thank the Catholic church for that. After they teamed up with the Roman government, the power went to their heads, and eventually led to lkilling off their competition and forcefully indoctrinating the majority of people in the western world of that day and age. After a few hundred years, it became the unquestionable TRUTH. It was conditioned (programed) into our human brains. I invite all of you to do as I did. Pray that you may find and understand truth. And do an indepth study of the history of God/gods and religions. And I know what some of you are thinking. I am satan trying to lead you astray. That is part of the conditioning that was drilled into you to keep you from using the excelent brain you were given to think for yourself. If what I have written is censured or deleted, consider that is what cults do when they are feeling threatened. Remember, Jesus said the truth shall set you free. But if you do not open your mind to all information, you know not what you do not know. } | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted March 25 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,221 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,944 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25 49 minutes ago, Questioning said: I will try to sum this up. This post shows that you and the movement are authoritarian. And that, coupled with the belief that you have the correct interptetation of the Bible, therefore the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, makes you and the movement DANGEROUS. You want CONTROL! NOT FREEDOM! I grew up in a fundamentalist family and community, and graduated from a Christian college, and worked in Christian agencies for 20 years. But there were things about our faith and the bible that did not add up. I became a student of how we got our Bible, and of the history of religions, including the Christian religion going back to the Sumerians and their cuneiform writings which are the oldest known of mankind. These go back several centuries before the earliest Hebrew writings. All evidence led to my believing the creation and flood stories in Genesis were plagiarisms of Sumerian writings, which indicate gods (plural) created man in their image. Not just one god. There is no way after my years of study I can now believe the Bible is inerrant. Also in my study it was discovered the story of Jesus is plagiarism. However, I am a follower of Jesus because, as a behavioral and social scientist, I found his teaching is VALID. It is universal truth. Scientific evidence shows his precepts for mankind builds more harmony in society. Loving neighbor as self leads to the wellbeing of mankind through building each other up. It is helping everyone feel worthwhile which leads to a more healthy society. It is the antithesis of the doctrine of original sin, which I believe was a clever scheme to get humans to believe they are inferior, and will always need a "king" and "savior" to guide them. It has worked with many unaware people for thousands of years. That is why authoritiarians are against the broad education of the masses. After studying the Sumerian stories, I believe the scheme started even prior to the Hebrew writings. Jesus was suggesting a better way, and it got him killed. I am sure you are well meaning, but you and the movement are wanting to keep humans in subjection to your beliefs. And millions of others believe the subjection ideology is truth because it has been in circulation for thousands of Years. We can thank the Catholic church for that. After they teamed up with the Roman government, the power went to their heads, and eventually led to lkilling off their competition and forcefully indoctrinating the majority of people in the western world of that day and age. After a few hundred years, it became the unquestionable TRUTH. It was conditioned (programed) into our human brains. I invite all of you to do as I did. Pray that you may find and understand truth. And do an indepth study of the history of God/gods and religions. And I know what some of you are thinking. I am satan trying to lead you astray. That is part of the conditioning that was drilled into you to keep you from using the excelent brain you were given to think for yourself. If what I have written is censured or deleted, consider that is what cults do when they are feeling threatened. Remember, Jesus said the truth shall set you free. But if you do not open your mind to all information, you know not what you do not know. } | I've been where you are and it hurts me to read this post. The amount of information it would take for you to understand is not possible in this format. I would suggest listening to a good number of Michael Heiser's videos and it would save us days and days of typing. He is the only noted person who puts out those things I spent decades learning. The video's are much too long to post here, but they are easily found on the internet. Just a hint though is that those old Sumerian and later gods are actually the watchers that God assigned to the different peoples when he divided them up at the tower of Babel. They like Satan decided they wanted to be worshiped as did Satan. Pride is a powerful thing. I wouldn't say that the Bible has errors, I would just say that it isn't the entire story. But it is more than enough to get a person saved, and that's what it's all about. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted March 25 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 958 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,655 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,084 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted March 25 10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said: The alternative is letting the godless legislate immorality. Hi, I don't find that to be especially convincing, for many a nonchristian lead lives with a very high standard of morality that they espouse and maintain. According to Pew research studies Christians have a higher rate of divorce than the population as a whole has. I don't think Christians can successfully claim the higher moral ground is theirs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueFollowerOfChrist Posted March 25 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,049 Content Per Day: 1.61 Reputation: 595 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, Questioning said: I will try to sum this up. This post shows that you and the movement are authoritarian. And that, coupled with the belief that you have the correct interptetation of the Bible, therefore the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, makes you and the movement DANGEROUS. You want CONTROL! NOT FREEDOM! I grew up in a fundamentalist family and community, and graduated from a Christian college, and worked in Christian agencies for 20 years. But there were things about our faith and the bible that did not add up. I became a student of how we got our Bible, and of the history of religions, including the Christian religion going back to the Sumerians and their cuneiform writtings which are the oldest known of mankind. These go back several centuries before the earliest Hebrew writings. All evidence led to my believing the creation and flood stories in Genesis were plagiarisms of Sumerian writings, which indicate gods (plural) created man in their image. Not just one god. There is no way after my years of study I can now believe the Bible is inerrant. Also in my study it was discovered the story of Jesus is plagiarism. However, I am a follower of Jesus because, as a behavioral and social scientist, I found his teaching is VALID. It is universal truth. Scientific evidence shows his precepts for mankind builds more harmony in society. Loving neighbor as self leads to the wellbeing of mankind through building each other up. It is helping everyone feel worthwhile which leads to a more healthy society. It is the antithesis of the doctrine of original sin, which I believe was a clever scheme to get humans to believe they are inferior, and will always need a "king" and "savior" to guide them. It has worked with many unaware people for thousands of years. That is why authoritiarians are against the broad education of the masses. After studying the Sumerian stories, I believe the scheme started even prior to the Hebrew writings. Jesus was suggesting a better way, and it got him killed. I am sure you are well meaning, but you and the movement are wanting to keep humans in subjection to your beliefs. And millions of others believe the subjection ideology is truth because it has been in circulation for thousands of Years. We can thank the Catholic church for that. After they teamed up with the Roman government, the power went to their heads, and eventually led to lkilling off their competition and forcefully indoctrinating the majority of people in the western world of that day and age. After a few hundred years, it became the unquestionable TRUTH. It was conditioned (programed) into our human brains. I invite all of you to do as I did. Pray that you may find and understand truth. And do an indepth study of the history of God/gods and religions. And I know what some of you are thinking. I am satan trying to lead you astray. That is part of the conditioning that was drilled into you to keep you from using the excelent brain you were given to think for yourself. If what I have written is censured or deleted, consider that is what cults do when they are feeling threatened. Remember, Jesus said the truth shall set you free. But if you do not open your mind to all information, you know not what you do not know. } | I honestly don't know how to talk to you. You seem determined to put people in boxes and accuse them of things that are not true. Instead of asking for clarification, you make immediate judgements and stay fixated on that. I'm not part of any group as you seem to think and I desire everyone to live in the freedom that Jesus offers. You seem to have cultish ideals and you seem to demonize and think evil of all who don't believe as you do. I will pray for you and I hope one day you can see the light that Jesus offers. I don't know if you are a follower of Jesus. Your posts seem to indicate that you might not be. Either way, I wish blessings and goodness to follow you. God Bless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueFollowerOfChrist Posted March 25 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,049 Content Per Day: 1.61 Reputation: 595 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25 10 minutes ago, Neighbor said: Hi, I don't find that to be especially convincing, for many a nonchristian lead lives with a very high standard of morality that they espouse and maintain. According to Pew research studies Christians have a higher rate of divorce than the population as a whole has. I don't think Christians can successfully claim the higher moral ground is theirs. I'm not talking about my own personal morality. I'm talking about God's. Things like abortion, theft, homosexuality, murder, assault, are all condemned in Scripture and I think we should do what we can to outlaw them now. I didn't follow statistics or studies personally as these are manipulated by the people who create them and are not really reliable. Things like broken homes and divorce no doubt exist in Christian and non Christian homes. Your correct that many people like atheists or people who have other faiths also have strong moral codes, but I would argue GOD has the strongest moral code and it's his we should all be striving to live by. The problem is that those who don't believe in the Bible or Jesus no doubt compromise greatly as to which things should be outlawed now. This is why we have churches that compromise on sin and won't kick unrepentant sinners out as Paul commands. But as far as morality goes, I think the 10 commandments are a great starting place and even other faiths and even some atheists would probably admit the 10 commandments are an excellent moral code that all of society should follow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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