Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned

[AdHoc]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Just a point there Ad Hoc,

`By faith he (Abraham) dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, ....for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

....And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 9 & 10,  15 & 16)

Well... It's always AMEN from me when you quote scripture. But I didn't get your point. However, at the risk of having missed the point i would like to comment on your verses.

Abraham never inherited the Land. he dwelt in it but was a sojourner. Six generations of Abraham also did not get the Land. Joshua's generation died in the wilderness, but the next one gained it. In less than 1,000 years Israel was ejected from the Land and it remained under foreign rule and/or desolate until today. The present State of Israel is subject to the whims of foreign nations. The House of David is in ruins.

Verse 15 above reminds us that though this state of affairs reigned in the time of the fathers of Israel, Abraham and company did not return to their original Lands. Nor did Moses return to Egypt. The word "heavenly" can mean two things.
(I) It is IN heaven, or (II) it had its origin in heaven and bears the nature of heaven.

I judge that the second one is meant. God Promised Abraham a LAND with BORDERS - one that he could stand on a vantage point and see till the horizon. This is further proven by the presence and ownership of the cursed Canaanites. It is further proven by the fact that Abraham was a "sojourner". If, at some point in time, a King came from Heaven and instituted a set of governing rules for people who lived in this Land, the Land would have the flavor of heaven.

Verse 16 presents us with a City made in heaven. This city cannot be physical Jerusalem because it is already standing and occupied when the heavenly King comes from th clouds and His feet touch Mount Olives. And it will have been the Citadel of a man from the Abyss who went to perdition. The "heavenly City" must be defined by one that had its ORIGIN and Nature in heaven. And scripture presents us this City FOUR times. It is presented as a MOTHER three times, and a TREE once.
1. In Galatians 4:26 it is declared to be MOTHER of "us all". The context is the seed of Isaac to whom the PROMISE was made. The Promise was the LAND and BOTH Israelite AND Believer are seed of Isaac (Rom.9:3-4, Gal.3:29) - one by the flesh and one by the Spirit. In both cases the God of Heaven intervened in a woman's womb.

2. In Romans 11 is an Olive Tree. A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (see Judges 9 etc.). The Tree is made of a Root/Stem which is holy and two types of branches- (i) Natural and (ii) Wild. The King is Christ and His nature decides the the nature of the Tree - heavenly. The Two peoples of Galatians 4:26 are the branches and just as the gold of the Temple is made by the Temple, the Root of the Tree makes the Tree Heavenly. The Olive Tree is the sum of the Kingdom of Heaven, BUT INCOMPLETE In this age it does not have Israel - and in the millennium it will be missing those Christians who are cast out of the Kingdom OF HEAVEN.

3. In Revelation 12 is a MOTHER. She has THREE SEEDS. (i) The Man-Child, (ii) Those who keep the commandments of God, and (iii) Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The term "Commandments of God" is exclusively used in the Old Testament to describe the Law of Moses, making one of the seeds the Jewish Remnant of Romans 9 and 11. Those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" can only be Believers. Thus, we have AGAIN a HEAVENLY MOTHER of both Believer and Israelite. Her crown is CELESTIAL - heavenly and makes her a KINGDOM. She is New Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation.

4. The City of Revelation 21 is a WIFE. She is from HEAVEN and the City has the glory of God - Heavenly or CELESTIAL She is made of Believers (Walls) and Israel (Gates) - the same two of Galatians 4:26 and Romans 11

Now, it is clear that New Jerusalem is not complete until after the Millennium. But those who are part of it enjoy the full privileges. The Book of Hebrews presents REWARD and LOSS for staying with Christ through tribulation or returning to Moses for EARTHLY rewards. The City in Hebrews 11 is the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and is made of those OF FAITH. Israel will not rule, but will be the LAND of the great King, and The BELIEVERS who lived by faith will bring heavenly rule to earth.

The student of Hebrews 11 must decide whether the Heavenly City is literal or a Picture. The Beast will have occupied Jerusalem for 7 years just prior to Christ's arrival. It will have been constructed over 1,500 years of foreign occupation. It's foundations are the ruins of God's judgment. Jesus will bring heavenly nature and flavor to Jerusalem and the whole earth and the men and women of faith RECEIVE THEIR INHERITANCE from the COVENANT OF PROMISE. A Land and City subject to heavenly rule.

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

The Church is OF the seed of Abraham which is CHRIST. 

Excellent.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;

but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Witnessed by John at His baptism.

 

[Marilyn C]

50 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

 

Hopefully someone was informed, you 

always seem preoccupied with being right 

about something....

 

Perhaps the redundancy of your posting is 

an example of "with stammering lips". LOL.

One thing I have come to recognize is that 

you are not very receptive, too busy pounding

home a point that is nothing less than obvious.

Those rude comments were not called for Mr. M. Please keep to the discussion and not denigrate someone else. 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Well... It's always AMEN from me when you quote scripture. But I didn't get your point. However, at the risk of having missed the point i would like to comment on your verses....

Jesus will bring heavenly nature and flavor to Jerusalem and the whole earth and the men and women of faith RECEIVE THEIR INHERITANCE from the COVENANT OF PROMISE. A Land and City subject to heavenly rule.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I read a lot of your own thoughts there but not really backed by scripture. So let`s have a deeper look at this `city` and where it will be.

We can start where I last posted -

`By faith he (Abraham) dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, ....for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

....And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 9 & 10,  15 & 16)

And this is the point of difference - you say earth and I say the Universe. 

 

The Rulership position of principalities and Powers.

Now we know that God made the different realms and the Universe above us is the rulership position of `Principalities and Powers.` 

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities and powers. All things were created through Him and FOR HIM.` (Col. 1: 16)

 

Satan and his fallen angels usurped that position.

We know that when Lucifer and his fallen angels were cast out of the third heaven they usurped the ruling position of Principalities and Powers in the Universal realm.

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers....` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

Satan and his fallen angels cast out of that rulership position.

Then we also know that in the tribulation they will be cast out of there to the earth.

`Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath,...` (Rev. 12: 12)

 

God sets up His rulership of principalities and powers in the Universal realm.

Job said, `the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15)

Thus, we see that God will set up His rulership in the Universal realm of Principalities and Powers. 

Then in the new heavens and new earth we see the city come down out of heaven from God. It will go to the Universal realm with the ruling position of Principalities and Powers. As the earth revolves the nations will be able to walk in its light. (Rev. 21: 24)

Remember the Lord said those ruling positions were FOR HIM. (Col. 1: 16)

Every realm in God`s great kingdom will have rulership under the Lord. 

 

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The Church is OF the seed of Abraham which is CHRIST.

 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Ga 3:29)

May the reader notice how you change the grammar.

And so you have done throughout your answer. It is easy to answer with a half verse, change the words and add a thought. I will show one more.

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes, Jesus does return to the earth however, His seat of Power and authority is - `far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

The new Jerusalem will not come to earth but be in the Universal realm, where all nations can walk in its light as the earth revolves. (Rev. 21: 24)

You have failed to say that our Lord was set at the right hand of the Father FOR THIS AGE, and that the Lord will receive His OWN THRONE in the next age. You then cut out the subject which is "far above all principality... etc.," - THE NAME. By doing this and implying that our Lord's "SEAT" is His Father's, you make our Lord a liar when He said in Revelation 3:21;

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Furthermore, you put our Lord far above all principality and put ALL NATIONS there with Him -for so it is said in Matthew 25:31-32 - thus introducing the doctrine that ALL NATIONS are far above all principality. The wresting of God's Word is most lamentable ... though unintentional, I believe.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Ga 3:29)

May the reader notice how you change the grammar.

And so you have done throughout your answer. It is easy to answer with a half verse, change the words and add a thought. I will show one more.

You have failed to say that our Lord was set at the right hand of the Father FOR THIS AGE, and that the Lord will receive His OWN THRONE in the next age. You then cut out the subject which is "far above all principality... etc.," - THE NAME. By doing this and implying that our Lord's "SEAT" is His Father's, you make our Lord a liar when He said in Revelation 3:21;

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Furthermore, you put our Lord far above all principality and put ALL NATIONS there with Him -for so it is said in Matthew 25:31-32 - thus introducing the doctrine that ALL NATIONS are far above all principality. The wresting of God's Word is most lamentable ... though unintentional, I believe.

Hi Ad Hoc,

You have misunderstood my intents there bro. I was not about deceiving but explaining.

We know Abraham`s seed is Christ not that we are physically from Abraham. Some people may think that so I wrote `OF` as an explanation NOT to deceive.

The point I was making as to Eph. 1: 21 is that NO MATTER WHERE the Lord`s own throne is He is still and will be `far above all....in this age and also in that which is to come.`

The Lord`s own throne we know from Rev. 4: 2 is in the third heaven, the angelic realm. There with His Body we will be ruling and reigning for ever.

Now you well know that when the Lord comes to earth with His angelic army that He sits on the throne of His glory, which is His authority given of the Father, and its seat of power and authority is in the third heaven. (Rev. 4: 2)

You misinterpret what I say. Wouldn`t it be better to say `did you mean such and such? ` instead of accusing. For we know who is the author of accusing.

[AdHoc]

14 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

You misinterpret what I say. Wouldn`t it be better to say `did you mean such and such? ` instead of accusing. For we know who is the author of accusing.

I think that the essential difference between us is that I wish you would answer only what I said, and you wish I would ask what you meant. (smile).

Now, I'll try to fulfill your wish. You have our Lord's Throne  ("Thronos - Gk.) in heaven in Revelation 4.2. You also agree that He returns to earth and His Throne is placed on earth to judge all nations in Matthew 25:31-32. Then you have Him returning to heaven (without scripture). That means that He only "TRAVELED" to earth for judgment. But when He traveled to the sky to judge the Church, He did not take His throne but a BEMA (Gk. - Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10).

Why is a BEMA (the traveling throne of a king or representative of the king) good enough for His travels to the clouds, but He must call upon His "THRONOS" for the heathen on earth?

And you still got Ephesians 1:21 wrong. The THING that is above everything in this age and the next is not Christ's THRONE. It is His NAME.

But now I have a question for you. If Adam and Eve had obeyed God, they would have had the LIFE of the Tree. They also were commanded to "fill" or "replenish" THE EARTH. How could this be if God's plan was for them to be moved to the third heaven?

Please show scripture for how this could happen? If you say that God had to change His plan, then the Devil won and we can throw our Bibles away because we all believe  that God's councils are immutable.

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I read a lot of your own thoughts there but not really backed by scripture. So let`s have a deeper look at this `city` and where it will be.

We can start where I last posted -

`By faith he (Abraham) dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, ....for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

....And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 9 & 10,  15 & 16)

And this is the point of difference - you say earth and I say the Universe. 

 

The Rulership position of principalities and Powers.

Now we know that God made the different realms and the Universe above us is the rulership position of `Principalities and Powers.` 

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities and powers. All things were created through Him and FOR HIM.` (Col. 1: 16)

 

Satan and his fallen angels usurped that position.

We know that when Lucifer and his fallen angels were cast out of the third heaven they usurped the ruling position of Principalities and Powers in the Universal realm.

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers....` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

Satan and his fallen angels cast out of that rulership position.

Then we also know that in the tribulation they will be cast out of there to the earth.

`Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath,...` (Rev. 12: 12)

 

God sets up His rulership of principalities and powers in the Universal realm.

Job said, `the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15)

Thus, we see that God will set up His rulership in the Universal realm of Principalities and Powers. 

Then in the new heavens and new earth we see the city come down out of heaven from God. It will go to the Universal realm with the ruling position of Principalities and Powers. As the earth revolves the nations will be able to walk in its light. (Rev. 21: 24)

Remember the Lord said those ruling positions were FOR HIM. (Col. 1: 16)

Every realm in God`s great kingdom will have rulership under the Lord. 

 

O.K.. Let me be sure of what you have said.

1. First, please give the verses that name the "THIRD Heaven"

2. Second, please give me the verses which name and define "THE UNIVERSAL REALM"

3. Third, God made man of the earth, to be nourished by the earth to subdue and rule the EARTH. His domain and sphere of rule is outlined in Psalm 8. Now, our Lord Jesus defined God's Kingdom in Luke 11:20.

20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you

Our Lord Jesus, the King, was present on earth to attack a demon, or demons. Why was He present and why did HE do it when the principalities are to be subjected by the third heaven? And why was the FINGER of God on earth? How could the Kingdom COME if Jesus had not been there with the finger of God? If the demons live in the sea, why put the kings who would rule over them in heaven when the King of kings says that the kingdom comes when He comes?

I appreciate that we all hold something, and I appreciate your sharp thought process, but don't you think that its time to reconsider? It's not a sin to have held something that later proves to be incorrect. I'm sure there are plenty of things in this grand Book that I've held, or do hold, that are wrong. Our Lord Jesus ruled and subdued both Angel and demon perfectly from His position on earth.

[Marilyn C]

13 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I think that the essential difference between us is that I wish you would answer only what I said, and you wish I would ask what you meant. (smile).

Now, I'll try to fulfill your wish. You have our Lord's Throne  ("Thronos - Gk.) in heaven in Revelation 4.2. You also agree that He returns to earth and His Throne is placed on earth to judge all nations in Matthew 25:31-32. Then you have Him returning to heaven (without scripture). That means that He only "TRAVELED" to earth for judgment. But when He traveled to the sky to judge the Church, He did not take His throne but a BEMA (Gk. - Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10).

Why is a BEMA (the traveling throne of a king or representative of the king) good enough for His travels to the clouds, but He must call upon His "THRONOS" for the heathen on earth?

And you still got Ephesians 1:21 wrong. The THING that is above everything in this age and the next is not Christ's THRONE. It is His NAME.

But now I have a question for you. If Adam and Eve had obeyed God, they would have had the LIFE of the Tree. They also were commanded to "fill" or "replenish" THE EARTH. How could this be if God's plan was for them to be moved to the third heaven?

Please show scripture for how this could happen? If you say that God had to change His plan, then the Devil won and we can throw our Bibles away because we all believe  that God's councils are immutable.

Morning or afternoon to you, bro,

I must thank you for asking such great questions. Yes, indeed we do seem to misunderstand each other. I do think I`m replying to you on a relevant point and you think I`m missing what you said. So, we need to attend a bit better. Though we must admit it is good to have `iron sharpening iron.` 

So, the word throne is not just a seat in some place, but I think you would agree it represents `power and authority.` Thus, when the Lord comes to earth to deliver Israel and judge the nations He has the power and authority the Father has given Him. No one on earth has given Him that power and authority. 

There is no travelling taking a seat with Him, but where ever the Lord goes He has the power and authority (represented in Rev. 4: 2) from the Father.

As to Eph. 1: 21 & 22 it is the Lord and His power and authority that is above every thing - `And He put all things under His feet.`  The name of the Lord is His power and authority and His character. 

Col. 1: 16 tells us that the Lord created all realms for Himself. He has the power and authority over them all.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

 

Now to your very interesting question. Of course, God did not change His mind or original plan and purpose for mankind. God just unfolded more of that especially after Christ ascended to His right hand. For there the Lord revealed to His Body His whole plan and purpose. Remember the Apostle Paul told the disciples in Ephesus that he had decaled to them the `whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)

So, let`s start with Adam and Eve. God foreknew they would disobey but God had His plan of redemption, as we well know. Now, we are not talking about their salvation but where they will go in eternity. Did you ever notice in Heb. 11, the `hall of fame,` that the list of those of faith in God`s promises start at Abel, not Adam. Why is that? 

It is because Abel was given a further revelation of a city as his inheritance. 

`Now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. `(Heb. 11: 16)

Adam and Eve were only given the earth as their inheritance. (Gen. 1: 28) 

The Body of Christ has been given an even greater revelation of their inheritance, which is to rule and reign with Christ on His seat of power and authority in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21,   4: 2)

All realms will have righteous rulership under the Lord Jesus Christ. He created all realms and will have His righteous rulership in each.

 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

O.K.. Let me be sure of what you have said.

1. First, please give the verses that name the "THIRD Heaven"

2. Second, please give me the verses which name and define "THE UNIVERSAL REALM"

3. Third, God made man of the earth, to be nourished by the earth to subdue and rule the EARTH. His domain and sphere of rule is outlined in Psalm 8. Now, our Lord Jesus defined God's Kingdom in Luke 11:20.

20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you

Our Lord Jesus, the King, was present on earth to attack a demon, or demons. Why was He present and why did HE do it when the principalities are to be subjected by the third heaven? And why was the FINGER of God on earth? How could the Kingdom COME if Jesus had not been there with the finger of God? If the demons live in the sea, why put the kings who would rule over them in heaven when the King of kings says that the kingdom comes when He comes?

I appreciate that we all hold something, and I appreciate your sharp thought process, but don't you think that its time to reconsider? It's not a sin to have held something that later proves to be incorrect. I'm sure there are plenty of things in this grand Book that I've held, or do hold, that are wrong. Our Lord Jesus ruled and subdued both Angel and demon perfectly from His position on earth.

1. Third heaven. (2 Cor. 12: 2.  Ps. 68: 33.  Rev. 4: 1 & 2)

2. The Universal realm. (Gen. 1: 14 - 18)

3. The earth. (Gen. 1: 9 - 12) Ps. 8 refers to man as God made him. However, further revelation was given to some, as we read of in Hebrews 11. 

The Kingdom of God is His rulership over all. (1 Cor. 15: 24) When Jesus was manifested on earth He came to His own, His people Israel as their King. He revealed His great authority over demons, sickness, disease, nature, wild animals, etc. This power was of no earthly king. The kingdom, rule of their King was in their midst, but they refused Him.

Yes, the Lord had authority over Satan and his demons, however Christ had to die to overcome death and Satan`s power over it.

`Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

And release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. ` (Heb. 2: 14 & 15)

He rose victorious, (as we well know & praise Him).