Partial Rapture Theory

[enoob57]

Understanding the Partial Rapture Theory (rewritten by AI)

Some believers hold the view that only faithful Christians will be taken in the rapture, while unfaithful Christians will remain on Earth to endure the tribulation. However, this concept lacks biblical support. Let’s explore this further:

1. Universal Rapture: The passages describing the rapture (1 Corinthians 15:50-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) appear to apply universally to all Christians, regardless of their maturity or faithfulness. Verses like Romans 8:1 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 affirm that God does not pour out His wrath on Christians. Therefore, there is no biblical evidence for a partial rapture. Every believer will be taken to heaven in the rapture.

2. Parable of the Ten Virgins: Some proponents of the partial rapture theory point to Jesus’ parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. However, this parable does not support partial rapture. The five virgins without oil in their lamps represent unbelievers, not believers left behind. The essential element in the parable is the oil, symbolizing the Holy Spirit. Those with the Holy Spirit in their hearts will be taken in the rapture because they are truly Christians. Those who profess faith but lack the Spirit will be left behind.

3. Be Ready: The lesson from this parable is to be ready because Christ’s return will be sudden and unexpected. Only those with the oil (the Holy Spirit) in their hearts will be taken. The rest, regardless of their professions, will be left behind. Jesus knows His own, and when He calls us, we will respond. To others, He will say, “I never knew you” (Matthew 25:12). Today is the day of salvation; delay no longer.

In summary, the partial rapture theory lacks biblical foundation, and the consistent teaching is that all true believers will be taken in the rapture. It’s essential to be spiritually prepared for Christ’s return, as it will happen suddenly and without warning

[RdJ]

5 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Rapture is different from ascension.  Rapture is when those who are alive and remain are caught up and changed. 

Oh yes you're right. I was just thinking that. The ones with Jesus, that wasn't a rapture. But it's not clear to me if the 144.000 die. If not it can be a second rapture and the 2 witnesses get raised and then ascend, oh that's not a rapture either.

[RdJ]

5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Understanding the Partial Rapture Theory (rewritten by AI)

Some believers hold the view that only faithful Christians will be taken in the rapture, while unfaithful Christians will remain on Earth to endure the tribulation. However, this concept lacks biblical support. Let’s explore this further:

1. Universal Rapture: The passages describing the rapture (1 Corinthians 15:50-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) appear to apply universally to all Christians, regardless of their maturity or faithfulness. Verses like Romans 8:1 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 affirm that God does not pour out His wrath on Christians. Therefore, there is no biblical evidence for a partial rapture. Every believer will be taken to heaven in the rapture.

2. Parable of the Ten Virgins: Some proponents of the partial rapture theory point to Jesus’ parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. However, this parable does not support partial rapture. The five virgins without oil in their lamps represent unbelievers, not believers left behind. The essential element in the parable is the oil, symbolizing the Holy Spirit. Those with the Holy Spirit in their hearts will be taken in the rapture because they are truly Christians. Those who profess faith but lack the Spirit will be left behind.

3. Be Ready: The lesson from this parable is to be ready because Christ’s return will be sudden and unexpected. Only those with the oil (the Holy Spirit) in their hearts will be taken. The rest, regardless of their professions, will be left behind. Jesus knows His own, and when He calls us, we will respond. To others, He will say, “I never knew you” (Matthew 25:12). Today is the day of salvation; delay no longer.

In summary, the partial rapture theory lacks biblical foundation, and the consistent teaching is that all true believers will be taken in the rapture. It’s essential to be spiritually prepared for Christ’s return, as it will happen suddenly and without warning

Why do you say true believers? That is partial rapture. Only the true believers get raptured. Some of the ones who believe but are not right with God get a second chance, but that's based on Ken Peters' dream. A man said he had not been right with God, shared the Gospel to him, 2 weeks after he got that dream he got saved and in the dream he got saved and that man was a leader in the revival during the trib. That's maybe Luke 12:

Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. 38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would [g]have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food [h]in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

The virgins are not unbelievers. They were going oit to meet the bridegroom and virgins. I read once that a translation says their lamps had gone out. Are going out or had gone out, they had oil in the past.

For instance someone serves God but then divorces, takes offense, is full of hate and lives in sin with someone else. And then is the rapture. This person will miss it cause he or she backslid. But that's not bad enough to lose your salvation. I know cause I came back. But there is a chance to get killed by a bomb and go to hell if your mom doesnt pray or if youmake it to end up like that guy who later got his head cut off too in the dream. But he did have revival and got a part of the uncountable multitude in.

Why would He warn us to watch if we get raptured anyway?

The deception is just satan always lying to young believers that they are not good enough. I believe a baby christian who just got saved a day ago will get raptured.

No wait. Luke 12, comes back from the wedding, that is about the end when there are no 2nd chances anymore. Cut him in half does not sound like there's a second chance.

He says it in Revelation 16:15 too. 

Edited April 27 by RdJ

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But this is not all. If there are "partial raptures" and the rapture is split into gatherings for a harvest, we can expect to see SOME Christians in the clouds with the Son of Man while SOME are left to face the Great Tribulation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:9) [Emphasis added]

What is the reason for the Tribulation, and who faces it? Can a Christian be partially saved, needing remedial judgment, wrath, and correction, and having a partial Holy Spirit indwelling? It seems to me Salvation (faith) and Reward (earned) are connected but not the same:

Salvation is the deliverance from danger or suffering, with a focus on eternal spiritual deliverance in Christian doctrine. It involves being saved from God's judgment of sin and the removal of sin's consequences through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gift from God, achieved through Jesus' death and resurrection, and is only accessible through faith. To receive salvation, one must hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, repent from sin, and call on the Lord. The Christian doctrine of salvation entails being saved from eternal punishment for sin by accepting God's conditions of repentance and faith in Jesus. Salvation is exclusive to Jesus and relies solely on God for provision, assurance, and security.

Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered

REWARDS (Gk. misthos, meaning “hire, wage, reward,” Matt. 5:12, 46; 6:1; 10:41; Mark 9:41; 1 Cor. 3:8; etc.). Rewards are offered by God to a believer on the basis of faithful service rendered after salvation. It is clear from Scripture that God offers to the lost salvation and for the faithful service of the saved, rewards. Often in theological thinking salvation and rewards are confused. However, these two terms must be carefully distinguished. Salvation is a free gift (John 4:10; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8–9, whereas rewards are earned by works (Matt. 10:42; cf. Luke 19:17; 1 Cor. 9:24–25; 2 Tim. 4:7–8).^[1]

So, if we have Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, even if we are slothful, we are still the sons of God, the bride of Christ, and saints. Will partial brides (the body of Christ) attend the marriage of the Lamb and marriage feast?

I see participation and rule in the Millennial reign as potentially a reward for service (parables). Matthew's description of "outer darkness" may not be Hell but exclusion.

Just thinking out loud with my thoughts.

 

---

^[1] Unger, Merrill F. “Rewards.” The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, edited by R.K. Harrison, Rev. and updated ed., Moody Press, 1988.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Understanding the Partial Rapture Theory (rewritten by AI)

Some believers hold the view that only faithful Christians will be taken in the rapture, while unfaithful Christians will remain on Earth to endure the tribulation. However, this concept lacks biblical support. Let’s explore this further:

1. Universal Rapture: The passages describing the rapture (1 Corinthians 15:50-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) appear to apply universally to all Christians, regardless of their maturity or faithfulness. Verses like Romans 8:1 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 affirm that God does not pour out His wrath on Christians. Therefore, there is no biblical evidence for a partial rapture. Every believer will be taken to heaven in the rapture.

2. Parable of the Ten Virgins: Some proponents of the partial rapture theory point to Jesus’ parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. However, this parable does not support partial rapture. The five virgins without oil in their lamps represent unbelievers, not believers left behind. The essential element in the parable is the oil, symbolizing the Holy Spirit. Those with the Holy Spirit in their hearts will be taken in the rapture because they are truly Christians. Those who profess faith but lack the Spirit will be left behind.

3. Be Ready: The lesson from this parable is to be ready because Christ’s return will be sudden and unexpected. Only those with the oil (the Holy Spirit) in their hearts will be taken. The rest, regardless of their professions, will be left behind. Jesus knows His own, and when He calls us, we will respond. To others, He will say, “I never knew you” (Matthew 25:12). Today is the day of salvation; delay no longer.

In summary, the partial rapture theory lacks biblical foundation, and the consistent teaching is that all true believers will be taken in the rapture. It’s essential to be spiritually prepared for Christ’s return, as it will happen suddenly and without warning

Okay, you probably missed it, and it has quite some detail, but I built a case for considering a partial rapture in the middle of page 2 of the thread. To date, no one has offered a counter. I'd say it stands. Of course I cannot expect anybody to answer, but to say the theory lacks biblical foundation is not true. If you decide to answer it, I'll appreciate it. In the mean time, I'll answer yours.

1. 1st Corinthians 15 never mentions the rapture. Verses 50-57 explain a change of body for the living - as opposed to the resurrection body that the dead receive. So much for AI.

1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 could apply to all believers

1st Thessalonians 5:9 is no guarantee. The operative word is "APPOINTED". "Appointed" means a beforehand agreed time, place or rank or person. It can be overturned if the appointed person dies, absconds and/or goes to jail. In Revelation 18:4 God's people, though not appointed, will partake of Mystery Babylon's plagues if thy are found in her.

The statement that God does not pour out His wrath on Christians may be true, but Ananias and Saphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, those who got sick and died for taking the Lord's table unworthily and Alexander the coppersmith almost, or did, lose their lives under God's discipline. If a flood in the streets is predicted because of heavy rains, and a Christian, in full knowledge, plays in the gutter, will God miraculously allow him to breath under water when it goes over his head?

2. The rapture in the parable of the 10 Virgins is found in verses 6 and 11. The cry in verse 6 is "go out and meet Him". Verse 11 shows the foolish Virgins came "AFTERWARDS". But the argument your AI posed fails in another point. It is claimed that they were unbelievers. 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 gives the order of resurrection. Christ first THEN "those who are His when He COMES". Revelation 20:1-6 tells us that the REST of the dead lived NOT until another 1,000 years have passed. As the 5 wise and the 5 foolish were raised together for the Kingdom's sake, they must all be His (Christ's). There are at least five more proofs, but time and space don't allow.

3. The reason for the parable is "watch". But how can the dead watch? The watching must then apply to their lifetimes. The five foolish Virgins are, in six ways, identical to the wise. What made them foolish was two things. (i) They had oil in their lamps but not in their VESSELS. (ii) They did not know that oil in the VESSELS MUST BE BOUGHT. Thus, if the argument is brought that they were unbelievers, and oil is salvation, the the parable teaches salvation by WORKS. If the argument is brought that "now is the time for salvation" they refute themselves because the foolish Virgins got the required oil and came to their Lord.

What AI did not tell you concerning the word "knew" is that is "oida" in the Greek. It means "I do not recognize you by sight". That is, the Virgin had spent NO TIME with her Groom. In certain cultures marriages are organized by the parents. The Groom sees his bride the very first time at the wedding feast. But Jesus sought a RELATIONSHIP. In Matthew 7:21-23 the word for "knew" is "ginosko", which means "intimate knowledge" like "knowing a woman"  (Lk.1:35). In both cases Christians are addressed. In both cases WORKS were judged. In both cases lack of INTIMACY was the cause. In both cases entering the Kingdom of Heaven was the issue - not salvation

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:9) [Emphasis added]

What is the reason for the Tribulation, and who faces it? Can a Christian be partially saved, needing remedial judgment, wrath, and correction, and having a partial Holy Spirit indwelling? It seems to me Salvation (faith) and Reward (earned) are connected but not the same:

Salvation is the deliverance from danger or suffering, with a focus on eternal spiritual deliverance in Christian doctrine. It involves being saved from God's judgment of sin and the removal of sin's consequences through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gift from God, achieved through Jesus' death and resurrection, and is only accessible through faith. To receive salvation, one must hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, repent from sin, and call on the Lord. The Christian doctrine of salvation entails being saved from eternal punishment for sin by accepting God's conditions of repentance and faith in Jesus. Salvation is exclusive to Jesus and relies solely on God for provision, assurance, and security.

Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered

REWARDS (Gk. misthos, meaning “hire, wage, reward,” Matt. 5:12, 46; 6:1; 10:41; Mark 9:41; 1 Cor. 3:8; etc.). Rewards are offered by God to a believer on the basis of faithful service rendered after salvation. It is clear from Scripture that God offers to the lost salvation and for the faithful service of the saved, rewards. Often in theological thinking salvation and rewards are confused. However, these two terms must be carefully distinguished. Salvation is a free gift (John 4:10; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8–9, whereas rewards are earned by works (Matt. 10:42; cf. Luke 19:17; 1 Cor. 9:24–25; 2 Tim. 4:7–8).^[1]

So, if we have Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, even if we are slothful, we are still the sons of God, the bride of Christ, and saints. Will partial brides (the body of Christ) attend the marriage of the Lamb and marriage feast?

I see participation and rule in the Millennial reign as potentially a reward for service (parables). Matthew's description of "outer darkness" may not be Hell but exclusion.

Just thinking out loud with my thoughts.

 

---

^[1] Unger, Merrill F. “Rewards.” The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, edited by R.K. Harrison, Rev. and updated ed., Moody Press, 1988.

Let's look at it this way. Would you say that Moses, Aaron and 600,000 fighting men of the 12 Tribes of Israel were APPOINTED to enter and occupy the Good Land. The training of Moses, which took 80 years, the burning bush, the plagues, the slaughter of Egypt's Firstborn and the opening of the Red Sea all point to God having a plan to get this generation of fighting men into the Land He had PROMISED. But how many achieved what was appointed? The answer is 2!

In Revelation 18:4 what do you think? If a Christian is playing in the devil's back yard, and God warned him of plagues to come on the back yard, will he miraculously escape if he does not head the warning?

I propose that parables of the Kingdom, and the direct statements (e.g. Gal.5:21), show that ENTERING the coming Kingdom (out) OF Heaven show that only those worthy, only those that attained, only those who behaved, only those qualified, only Overcomers and only those with an intimacy with Christ, will enter it.

At GREAT COST did Jehovah take out of the Nations a People for Himself. He has outlined His plan in a GREAT BOOK. He will not allow His GREAT NAME to be defiled with the behavior we see in Christian circles today.

To understand it all, all we must do is apply English grammar rules to a God Who gave us language. We do for the computer companies when we set up a new telephone. Every point and dot is carefully put in the right place. If God says "appointed" then he is appointed SO LONG AS NOTHING CHANGES. If he dies, get gravely ill, goes to jail or plays in the Devil's back yard, his "appointment" is annulled.

See my posting in the middle of page 2 of this Thread.

Go well soldier

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Okay, you probably missed it, and it has quite some detail, but I built a case for considering a partial rapture in the middle of page 2 of the thread. To date, no one has offered a counter. I'd say it stands. Of course I cannot expect anybody to answer, but to say the theory lacks biblical foundation is not true. If you decide to answer it, I'll appreciate it. In the mean time, I'll answer yours.

1. 1st Corinthians 15 never mentions the rapture. Verses 50-57 explain a change of body for the living - as opposed to the resurrection body that the dead receive. So much for AI.

1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 could apply to all believers

1st Thessalonians 5:9 is no guarantee. The operative word is "APPOINTED". "Appointed" means a beforehand agreed time, place or rank or person. It can be overturned if the appointed person dies, absconds and/or goes to jail. In Revelation 18:4 God's people, though not appointed, will partake of Mystery Babylon's plagues if thy are found in her.

The statement that God does not pour out His wrath on Christians may be true, but Ananias and Saphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, those who got sick and died for taking the Lord's table unworthily and Alexander the coppersmith almost, or did, lose their lives under God's discipline. If a flood in the streets is predicted because of heavy rains, and a Christian, in full knowledge, plays in the gutter, will God miraculously allow him to breath under water when it goes over his head?

2. The rapture in the parable of the 10 Virgins is found in verses 6 and 11. The cry in verse 6 is "go out and meet Him". Verse 11 shows the foolish Virgins came "AFTERWARDS". But the argument your AI posed fails in another point. It is claimed that they were unbelievers. 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 gives the order of resurrection. Christ first THEN "those who are His when He COMES". Revelation 20:1-6 tells us that the REST of the dead lived NOT until another 1,000 years have passed. As the 5 wise and the 5 foolish were raised together for the Kingdom's sake, they must all be His (Christ's). There are at least five more proofs, but time and space don't allow.

3. The reason for the parable is "watch". But how can the dead watch? The watching must then apply to their lifetimes. The five foolish Virgins are, in six ways, identical to the wise. What made them foolish was two things. (i) They had oil in their lamps but not in their VESSELS. (ii) They did not know that oil in the VESSELS MUST BE BOUGHT. Thus, if the argument is brought that they were unbelievers, and oil is salvation, the the parable teaches salvation by WORKS. If the argument is brought that "now is the time for salvation" they refute themselves because the foolish Virgins got the required oil and came to their Lord.

What AI did not tell you concerning the word "knew" is that is "oida" in the Greek. It means "I do not recognize you by sight". That is, the Virgin had spent NO TIME with her Groom. In certain cultures marriages are organized by the parents. The Groom sees his bride the very first time at the wedding feast. But Jesus sought a RELATIONSHIP. In Matthew 7:21-23 the word for "knew" is "ginosko", which means "intimate knowledge" like "knowing a woman"  (Lk.1:35). In both cases Christians are addressed. In both cases WORKS were judged. In both cases lack of INTIMACY was the cause. In both cases entering the Kingdom of Heaven was the issue - not salvation

agree to disagree...

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Let's look at it this way. Would you say that Moses, Aaron and 600,000 fighting men of the 12 Tribes of Israel were APPOINTED to enter and occupy the Good Land. The training of Moses, which took 80 years, the burning bush, the plagues, the slaughter of Egypt's Firstborn and the opening of the Red Sea all point to God having a plan to get this generation of fighting men into the Land He had PROMISED. But how many achieved what was appointed? The answer is 2!

In Revelation 18:4 what do you think? If a Christian is playing in the devil's back yard, and God warned him of plagues to come on the back yard, will he miraculously escape if he does not head the warning?

I propose that parables of the Kingdom, and the direct statements (e.g. Gal.5:21), show that ENTERING the coming Kingdom (out) OF Heaven show that only those worthy, only those that attained, only those who behaved, only those qualified, only Overcomers and only those with an intimacy with Christ, will enter it.

At GREAT COST did Jehovah take out of the Nations a People for Himself. He has outlined His plan in a GREAT BOOK. He will not allow His GREAT NAME to be defiled with the behavior we see in Christian circles today.

To understand it all, all we must do is apply English grammar rules to a God Who gave us language. We do for the computer companies when we set up a new telephone. Every point and dot is carefully put in the right place. If God says "appointed" then he is appointed SO LONG AS NOTHING CHANGES. If he dies, get gravely ill, goes to jail or plays in the Devil's back yard, his "appointment" is annulled.

See my posting in the middle of page 2 of this Thread.

Go well soldier

Brother AdHoc, I see your point, and I am not being argumentative; I am just debating.

So, to be clear, which kingdom do you refer to exactly? Citing your example of Caleb and Joshua being the only two allowed to enter the Promised Land, I see that not so much as a reward for service, faith, or trust but as the fulfillment of a covenant promise given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That contractual covenant was performed by God alone with Abraham, with no second parties’ involvement, correct?

As you rightly imply, the Hebrews-Jews are one of the eight kingdoms in and of themselves, a peculiar stiff-necked people chosen out of the nations as a people of God. That kingdom was specifically meant for and offered to the Jews first but rejected, correct? Later, it was amended and expanded to include Gentiles by grafting us in. So far so good?

This Jewish kingdom is an inheritance of innumerable people and a land grant with borders far exceeding today's. In the millennial kingdom, two Jews by birth will rule and reign: #1 Jesus and #2 David, as well as the Jewish Patriarchs and Apostles (twelve gates—twelve foundations).

That first generation of roughly 600,000 fighting men was allowed to live out their lives and, through attrition, was not allowed to step into the Promised Land. It appears the twelve spies representing the Twelve Tribes determined whether or not they would take the Promised Land by force from the descendants of the Nephilim, as God had directed them.

Caleb (Judah) and Joshua (Ephraim) believed the Lord and reported favorably to war against the giants taking their inheritance forcefully. Of those roughly 600,000 men of fighting age, there had to be many siding with Caleb and Joshua, yet only those two were allowed in to the Land. I see a covenant and reward as separate and distinguishable.

Now, back to the meat and potatoes. You’re not a vegan, are you?😊 I see the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as two separate Kingdoms until Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father at the close of the millennium. Matthew expounds on the Kingdom of Heaven 32 times and the Kingdom of God five times; it is evident these are not synonymous or used interchangeably.

The kingdom age has not arrived yet:

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (Luke 11:2)

I take the above to mean the Kingdom of God the Father.

The concept of the Kingdom of God is a central theme in both the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, God is portrayed as the king over all creation and specifically as the king of his covenant people, Israel. The prophets foretold a future time when God would manifest himself as king, bringing salvation and blessing not only to Israel but to all nations. In the New Testament, Jesus and John the Baptist preached about the Kingdom of God, emphasizing its arrival and fulfillment through Jesus. The Kingdom is described as both a present reality and a future eschatological hope. The relationship between the Kingdom of God and the church is debated, with the church seen as manifesting the Kingdom without being identical to it. The eschatological nature of the Kingdom, as proclaimed by Jesus, is a key focus of theological debate and interpretation.¹

¹New Dictionary of Theology

Admittedly, there appear to be conditional clauses regarding Salvation and entrance into the kingdoms (ifs, ands, until the end, etc.).

But, if God saved me, granted me eternal, everlasting life, then took that life back for any reason, it was not eternal, to begin with.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

In summary (you’re welcome 😊):

I think many are saved by faith alone and have produced little or no fruit for the Lord, as some parables imply. If entrance into the millennium (the bride of Christ) is by works and a reward for the good and faithful servant, and the slothful do not qualify for entrance into the Kingdom of Jesus, then what is their fate, and where do slothful Christians go in the kingdom age?

If this is true, perhaps Matthew alone provides a clue with “outer darkness?” There seems to be agreement with a single view of what this outer darkness represents: Hell:

The Meaning of Outer Darkness With these definitions as a range of meanings, we seek to accurately define outer darkness. Based on the history of its usage, this phrase is best understood as a reference to exclusion from the festivities that will accompany the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at the beginning of the Millennium (cf. Rev. 19:6–9). Outer darkness is a metonym for not entering the Kingdom. Those servants who respond appropriately to the talent they are given will be granted entrance into the wedding feast (and by extension the Kingdom). Those servants who are unprofitable will be left out in the dark where they will experience intense remorse. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a reference to the sorrow, grief, and agony of hell (Matt. 25:30). ¹

¹ What Lies Ahead: A Biblical Overview of the End Times

 

[Jaydub]

I think this thread should have been put into the defense of post tribulation thread

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Brother AdHoc, I see your point, and I am not being argumentative; I am just debating.

So, to be clear, which kingdom do you refer to exactly? Citing your example of Caleb and Joshua being the only two allowed to enter the Promised Land, I see that not so much as a reward for service, faith, or trust but as the fulfillment of a covenant promise given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That contractual covenant was performed by God alone with Abraham, with no second parties’ involvement, correct?

As you rightly imply, the Hebrews-Jews are one of the eight kingdoms in and of themselves, a peculiar stiff-necked people chosen out of the nations as a people of God. That kingdom was specifically meant for and offered to the Jews first but rejected, correct? Later, it was amended and expanded to include Gentiles by grafting us in. So far so good?

This Jewish kingdom is an inheritance of innumerable people and a land grant with borders far exceeding today's. In the millennial kingdom, two Jews by birth will rule and reign: #1 Jesus and #2 David, as well as the Jewish Patriarchs and Apostles (twelve gates—twelve foundations).

That first generation of roughly 600,000 fighting men was allowed to live out their lives and, through attrition, was not allowed to step into the Promised Land. It appears the twelve spies representing the Twelve Tribes determined whether or not they would take the Promised Land by force from the descendants of the Nephilim, as God had directed them.

Caleb (Judah) and Joshua (Ephraim) believed the Lord and reported favorably to war against the giants taking their inheritance forcefully. Of those roughly 600,000 men of fighting age, there had to be many siding with Caleb and Joshua, yet only those two were allowed in to the Land. I see a covenant and reward as separate and distinguishable.

Now, back to the meat and potatoes. You’re not a vegan, are you?😊 I see the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as two separate Kingdoms until Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father at the close of the millennium. Matthew expounds on the Kingdom of Heaven 32 times and the Kingdom of God five times; it is evident these are not synonymous or used interchangeably.

The kingdom age has not arrived yet:

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (Luke 11:2)

I take the above to mean the Kingdom of God the Father.

The concept of the Kingdom of God is a central theme in both the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, God is portrayed as the king over all creation and specifically as the king of his covenant people, Israel. The prophets foretold a future time when God would manifest himself as king, bringing salvation and blessing not only to Israel but to all nations. In the New Testament, Jesus and John the Baptist preached about the Kingdom of God, emphasizing its arrival and fulfillment through Jesus. The Kingdom is described as both a present reality and a future eschatological hope. The relationship between the Kingdom of God and the church is debated, with the church seen as manifesting the Kingdom without being identical to it. The eschatological nature of the Kingdom, as proclaimed by Jesus, is a key focus of theological debate and interpretation.¹

¹New Dictionary of Theology

Admittedly, there appear to be conditional clauses regarding Salvation and entrance into the kingdoms (ifs, ands, until the end, etc.).

But, if God saved me, granted me eternal, everlasting life, then took that life back for any reason, it was not eternal, to begin with.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

In summary (you’re welcome 😊):

I think many are saved by faith alone and have produced little or no fruit for the Lord, as some parables imply. If entrance into the millennium (the bride of Christ) is by works and a reward for the good and faithful servant, and the slothful do not qualify for entrance into the Kingdom of Jesus, then what is their fate, and where do slothful Christians go in the kingdom age?

If this is true, perhaps Matthew alone provides a clue with “outer darkness?” There seems to be agreement with a single view of what this outer darkness represents: Hell:

The Meaning of Outer Darkness With these definitions as a range of meanings, we seek to accurately define outer darkness. Based on the history of its usage, this phrase is best understood as a reference to exclusion from the festivities that will accompany the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at the beginning of the Millennium (cf. Rev. 19:6–9). Outer darkness is a metonym for not entering the Kingdom. Those servants who respond appropriately to the talent they are given will be granted entrance into the wedding feast (and by extension the Kingdom). Those servants who are unprofitable will be left out in the dark where they will experience intense remorse. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a reference to the sorrow, grief, and agony of hell (Matt. 25:30). ¹

¹ What Lies Ahead: A Biblical Overview of the End Times

 

Thanks for your reply. I agree. We debate. We argue too. It's healthy and there is no greater test for one's understanding than to have to formulate it.

The language surrounding the various Kingdoms is simple. The Kingdom of God is that area or sphere where God is King and His direct commands are met with obedience. God is sovereign, but for His Name's sake and for His glory, He attached Himself to mankind. If this man is delayed or stopped, God is happy to wait. By using the weakest link He heaps glory upon Himself. So, having placed the earth in man's hands He prepares to take His rest while man rules. That man fell and nw the wrong men rule is no problem to Him. He simply starts a work using man to recover His plan. It just takes some time but all the greater is His glory.

Heaven is God's Throne and so all authority starts there. If God engineers circumstances so that the same rules that apply in heaven are made to apply on earth, then the Kingdom (OUT OF) Heaven is on earth. There is no great hidden meaning to the verse you quoted. The Gentiles rule the earth. Jesus prayed for HIS (God's) Kingdom to COME (to earth) and in the same breath He prayed that the rules of heaven would be applied on earth. "Thy Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy WILL be dome on EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN". Simple.

The Kingdom of God has to do with the King, and the Kingdom of Heaven has to do with the standard and type of rule.

Man lost much on that fateful day when he ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He sinned and could expect God to demand RESTITUTION and RETRIBUTION. He was barred from the Tree of Life. His body was poisoned and headed towards physical death. He was barred from fellowship directly with God. He was humiliated and robbed of his position. He was in no position to rule seeing as he was the source of bad management.

But God is sovereign. He was not taken by surprise and immediately put into motion a way of recovering man to his position and inheritance. The grand process of man's salvation does NOT END IN HEAVEN. Man's recovery is so that he can fulfill what God originally planned. Rule of the earth!

Because of man's construction this recovery is partly IMPOSSIBLE. Man has no power or means to meet God's requirements for RESTITUTION. Likewise, the RETRIBUTION would destroy him. He could not overcome DEATH. He could not overcome the obstacles to the Tree of Life. He could not have a royal birth to be legal for a throne. So God had to do these things via a Substitute and APPLY them to man. The CONDITION for partaking of the RECOVERY is FAITH in God and His Son and His WORK.

But because of his construction, the thinking, feeling and deciding organs of man - his SOUL, could be infused with God's Nature and TRAINED. If God infused the life of His Son into man and then applied circumstances and discipline to a WILLING man and TRANSFORM his SOUL. God would supply the means and man would cooperate in APPLYING them.

Now God is not naive. The damage to man is great. Man always tends toward evil. So God made an INCENTIVE to get man to cooperate. Under Law the incentives were temporal. Health, wealth and long life, safety from enemies and bumper harvests were some of them. But for being restored to the high calling of being a ruling son of God, a superhuman standard was to be achieved. So God took the SAVED aside and promised him REWARDS if he cooperated. Conversely, if man did not cooperate, RETRIBUTION would be heaped on him.

The WAY was:
- To consume God's Word as a living bread
- To deny the legal and illegal demands of the SOUL in favor of God's demands
- To crucify the FLESH when it made legal and illegal demands
- To learn to OBEY the indwelling Spirit of God in all matters and commands
- To develop an intimate and virile RELATIONSHIP with Jesus

The REWARD is to:
- Be in the favor and presence of God (Ps.16:11)
- Have past wrongs done to you, met with revenge (Matt.25:31-46)
- Have past enemies come cowering at your feet (Rev.3:9)
- Watch God's enemies suffer day and night (Isa.66:24)
- Have great wealth, fame and power (Matt.19:29)
- Be a guest at a Wedding feast (Rev.19:7-8)
- Rule a city, or cities with heavenly glory, pomp and authority (Lk.19:17-19)

God's RETRIBUTION for non-cooperation is:
- Cast from the presence of God and Christ for 1,000 years
- Commensurate physical punishment (Matt.24:50-51, Lk.12:48)
- Disgrace before God and men - a laughing stock
- To be "hurt" of the Second Death
- To be refused connection with Jesus
- To suffer intensely from deep regret and sense of loss
- To complete the required training in the age of the rod of iron

You will note that each section does not infringe on the others. Your past sins forgiven, rebirth and eternal life remain. They are had by FAITH and cannot be refuted or withdrawn. You are still a son of God. But you suffer tremendously if you resist and disobey Gods commands in your spirit. You can be a son of God and suffer. You can have eternal life and suffer. You can be resurrected and still suffer physically.

I'll deal with the Covenants another day.