Partial Rapture Theory

[AdHoc]

32 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

I think this thread should have been put into the defense of post tribulation thread

You've got a point but for many who are new, a fresh look at the matter, without wading through a thousand or two thousand postings, is easier.

By the way, have you realized that this theme of partial rapture answers all the others. The firstfruits and Overcomers partake of a pre-tribulation rapture. Those left are matured by the heat and dryness of the Great Tribulation and could be harvested during the Tribulation. And the gleanings, like the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 fulfill a post Tribulation rapture.

I think it's WORTHY of its own thread.

Go well.

[Dennis1209]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your reply. I agree. We debate. We argue too. It's healthy and there is no greater test for one's understanding than to have to formulate it.

The language surrounding the various Kingdoms is simple. The Kingdom of God is that area or sphere where God is King and His direct commands are met with obedience. God is sovereign, but for His Name's sake and for His glory, He attached Himself to mankind. If this man is delayed or stopped, God is happy to wait. By using the weakest link He heaps glory upon Himself. So, having placed the earth in man's hands He prepares to take His rest while man rules. That man fell and nw the wrong men rule is no problem to Him. He simply starts a work using man to recover His plan. It just takes some time but all the greater is His glory.

Heaven is God's Throne and so all authority starts there. If God engineers circumstances so that the same rules that apply in heaven are made to apply on earth, then the Kingdom (OUT OF) Heaven is on earth. There is no great hidden meaning to the verse you quoted. The Gentiles rule the earth. Jesus prayed for HIS (God's) Kingdom to COME (to earth) and in the same breath He prayed that the rules of heaven would be applied on earth. "Thy Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy WILL be dome on EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN". Simple.

The Kingdom of God has to do with the King, and the Kingdom of Heaven has to do with the standard and type of rule.

Man lost much on that fateful day when he ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He sinned and could expect God to demand RESTITUTION and RETRIBUTION. He was barred from the Tree of Life. His body was poisoned and headed towards physical death. He was barred from fellowship directly with God. He was humiliated and robbed of his position. He was in no position to rule seeing as he was the source of bad management.

But God is sovereign. He was not taken by surprise and immediately put into motion a way of recovering man to his position and inheritance. The grand process of man's salvation does NOT END IN HEAVEN. Man's recovery is so that he can fulfill what God originally planned. Rule of the earth!

Because of man's construction this recovery is partly IMPOSSIBLE. Man has no power or means to meet God's requirements for RESTITUTION. Likewise, the RETRIBUTION would destroy him. He could not overcome DEATH. He could not overcome the obstacles to the Tree of Life. He could not have a royal birth to be legal for a throne. So God had to do these things via a Substitute and APPLY them to man. The CONDITION for partaking of the RECOVERY is FAITH in God and His Son and His WORK.

But because of his construction, the thinking, feeling and deciding organs of man - his SOUL, could be infused with God's Nature and TRAINED. If God infused the life of His Son into man and then applied circumstances and discipline to a WILLING man and TRANSFORM his SOUL. God would supply the means and man would cooperate in APPLYING them.

Now God is not naive. The damage to man is great. Man always tends toward evil. So God made an INCENTIVE to get man to cooperate. Under Law the incentives were temporal. Health, wealth and long life, safety from enemies and bumper harvests were some of them. But for being restored to the high calling of being a ruling son of God, a superhuman standard was to be achieved. So God took the SAVED aside and promised him REWARDS if he cooperated. Conversely, if man did not cooperate, RETRIBUTION would be heaped on him.

The WAY was:
- To consume God's Word as a living bread
- To deny the legal and illegal demands of the SOUL in favor of God's demands
- To crucify the FLESH when it made legal and illegal demands
- To learn to OBEY the indwelling Spirit of God in all matters and commands
- To develop an intimate and virile RELATIONSHIP with Jesus

The REWARD is to:
- Be in the favor and presence of God (Ps.16:11)
- Have past wrongs done to you, met with revenge (Matt.25:31-46)
- Have past enemies come cowering at your feet (Rev.3:9)
- Watch God's enemies suffer day and night (Isa.66:24)
- Have great wealth, fame and power (Matt.19:29)
- Be a guest at a Wedding feast (Rev.19:7-8)
- Rule a city, or cities with heavenly glory, pomp and authority (Lk.19:17-19)

God's RETRIBUTION for non-cooperation is:
- Cast from the presence of God and Christ for 1,000 years
- Commensurate physical punishment (Matt.24:50-51, Lk.12:48)
- Disgrace before God and men - a laughing stock
- To be "hurt" of the Second Death
- To be refused connection with Jesus
- To suffer intensely from deep regret and sense of loss
- To complete the required training in the age of the rod of iron

You will note that each section does not infringe on the others. Your past sins forgiven, rebirth and eternal life remain. They are had by FAITH and cannot be refuted or withdrawn. You are still a son of God. But you suffer tremendously if you resist and disobey Gods commands in your spirit. You can be a son of God and suffer. You can have eternal life and suffer. You can be resurrected and still suffer physically.

I'll deal with the Covenants another day.

That is a good explanation, thank you. We are on the same page, but maybe a different paragraph. Partial raptures, resurrections, and translations are certain in time and place; they are how we view who, when, and why. I mentioned those martyrs under the altar who were given white robes (not glorified bodies) awaiting more of their martyred brethren, the Great White Throne, etc.

To clarify to those who claim there is no such thing as a Rapture because the word is not in the Bible. It is derived from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate Bible (harpazo-rapio) translation, and most churches adopt it. Therefore, it is in the Bible.

Elijah was caught up (v. alah), Enoch was caught up (v. laqach), Paul was caught up to the 3^rd Heaven (harpazo), and Philip was transported elsewhere on earth (harpazo). In all instances, we can substitute the word rapture, which simply means a movement. Jesus’s ascension into the clouds was a Rapture (movement). With that clarification out of the way…

For now, let us stick to what directly affects us in this generation, which I believe is the terminal generation, so that I can glean everyone’s thoughts on partial raptures.

I am not saying this, but suppose the Rapture and Resurrection will happen next week. People either have eternal Salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or not. Will a distinction and partial Rapture and Resurrection happen, or will all true believers with faith and trust in Jesus be taken, regardless of whether they had much fruit and works for the Kingdom? This is not a reward; it is by faith alone.

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (Revelation 7:17)

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:4)

If there is remedial training, more testing, maturing, regret, punishment, etc., for those in their glorified bodies who did not make the cut, then there will undoubtedly be regret and tears.

I believe the Book of Revelation is written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. The wiping away of tears in Rev. 7:17 is during the Tribulation, and how I interpret it applies only to those Tribulation saints. As I view it, Rev. 21:4 precedes entering the eternal state with the New Jerusalem.

We know that during the millennial reign, human longevity will revert to that of the first ten generations, but there will still be death. Some sin will still be present under the rule with a rod of iron, but too much sin or rebellion and babes of 100 years old will be put to death.

This applies to those with mortal bodies allowed to enter the millennium and to successive generations. What about those with glorified bodies that will never taste death again? Were their tears, sorrow, crying, and pain removed at the last step of Salvation, glorification?

Your exegesis makes logical sense if the preceding is not removed from us until Revelation 21:4.

If my above speculation is accurate, I thought about why our tears, sorrow, and crying are not removed until eternity.

Could it be a time of reflection? The wasted opportunities presented to us to share the Gospel and our testimony. The fruit we had the opportunity to bear for the Kingdom. We were often self-centered and could have helped a brother or stranger, but we did not. We may have had ill will toward some people, etc.

We may see, or at least know of those suffering in Hell, that we could have made an eternal difference in their lives by planting the seed of the Good News. In retrospect, even now, these things are hard to stomach and cannot be undone.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

That is a good explanation, thank you. We are on the same page, but maybe a different paragraph. Partial raptures, resurrections, and translations are certain in time and place; they are how we view who, when, and why. I mentioned those martyrs under the altar who were given white robes (not glorified bodies) awaiting more of their martyred brethren, the Great White Throne, etc.

To clarify to those who claim there is no such thing as a Rapture because the word is not in the Bible. It is derived from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate Bible (harpazo-rapio) translation, and most churches adopt it. Therefore, it is in the Bible.

Elijah was caught up (v. alah), Enoch was caught up (v. laqach), Paul was caught up to the 3^rd Heaven (harpazo), and Philip was transported elsewhere on earth (harpazo). In all instances, we can substitute the word rapture, which simply means a movement. Jesus’s ascension into the clouds was a Rapture (movement). With that clarification out of the way…

For now, let us stick to what directly affects us in this generation, which I believe is the terminal generation, so that I can glean everyone’s thoughts on partial raptures.

I am not saying this, but suppose the Rapture and Resurrection will happen next week. People either have eternal Salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or not. Will a distinction and partial Rapture and Resurrection happen, or will all true believers with faith and trust in Jesus be taken, regardless of whether they had much fruit and works for the Kingdom? This is not a reward; it is by faith alone.

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (Revelation 7:17)

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:4)

If there is remedial training, more testing, maturing, regret, punishment, etc., for those in their glorified bodies who did not make the cut, then there will undoubtedly be regret and tears.

I believe the Book of Revelation is written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. The wiping away of tears in Rev. 7:17 is during the Tribulation, and how I interpret it applies only to those Tribulation saints. As I view it, Rev. 21:4 precedes entering the eternal state with the New Jerusalem.

We know that during the millennial reign, human longevity will revert to that of the first ten generations, but there will still be death. Some sin will still be present under the rule with a rod of iron, but too much sin or rebellion and babes of 100 years old will be put to death.

This applies to those with mortal bodies allowed to enter the millennium and to successive generations. What about those with glorified bodies that will never taste death again? Were their tears, sorrow, crying, and pain removed at the last step of Salvation, glorification?

Your exegesis makes logical sense if the preceding is not removed from us until Revelation 21:4.

If my above speculation is accurate, I thought about why our tears, sorrow, and crying are not removed until eternity.

Could it be a time of reflection? The wasted opportunities presented to us to share the Gospel and our testimony. The fruit we had the opportunity to bear for the Kingdom. We were often self-centered and could have helped a brother or stranger, but we did not. We may have had ill will toward some people, etc.

We may see, or at least know of those suffering in Hell, that we could have made an eternal difference in their lives by planting the seed of the Good News. In retrospect, even now, these things are hard to stomach and cannot be undone.

The question always is; "do we study the Bible first by way of a bird's eye and then do the detail - or, the other way around?" Well, we all know that a puzzle is much easier to do with the picture on the box before our eyes. So lets take an elevated position.

God has a plan and joins Himself to man for its realization. The basic plan is;
1. Have a physical and visible expression of Himself - the invisible God
2. Have a ruler of this earth that depends on, and obeys Him
3. Have a spiritual House to dwell on earth
4. Have a physical Bride for His Son - the Man Jesus

For points 1 and 3 the man has to have a DISPOSITION - a Character that is expressed by his physical actions. For point 2 the man needs God's POWER. For point 4 man needs to be in Christ and come out of Him like Eve did. In coming out of her man has the same substance and vitality as Him except he is not the SOURCE.

For various reasons the first man did not carry out God's instructions and his DISPOSITION was utterly changed. He became an implacable enemy of his Maker. Man is like a snowball rolling down a hillside towards a furnace - a place of destruction of snowballs. In his way the snowball gets bigger, heavier and he is less likely to turn uphill again, unless some with power turns him.

But even if a man of giant strength stops the snowball and pushes it up the hill away from the fire, the man is still an offender of God, still an enemy of God, still prone to downward trajectory and still a snowball. So one can be saved from the fire but man needs a fundamental change. So God's work is TWOFOLD;
1. To SAVE a man without breaking His own laws of justice
2. To change a man without the man, still being an enemy, resisting God

Suppose God has decided that He will make the snowball a block of ice for building an House for Him (an igloo). He can apply pressure and blows to turn the soft snow into an ice block, but if the snow resists God and every evening undoes the work God has done, what can God do? He made the snowball to have its own will and He honors that. He sets a REWARD for cooperation. God has FOUR options:
1. He can leave the snowball to his own devices. But then His great effort and expense of SAVING the downward vector of the snowball is wasted, and He will have a reputation of a loser.
2. He can frighten the snowball into submission, but this a precarious situation because the snowball has no concept of the temperature of the flames and soon puts these unpleasant thoughts away
3. He can use His massive power to force the snowball into the ROLE but he will soon flag and be a bad ruler
4. He can offer a REWARD for loving Him and serving Him. This way he gets cooperative lovers who WANT to make Him happy.

And this is the story of the Bible. God loves His snowballs and does everything to SAVE them. But He SAVES them FOR A PURPOSE. The SAVING is applied if the snowball BELIEVES in God's Work. But the TRAINING for higher office is going to cost time, effort and self-discipline. This principle is the framework of the Law of God (see Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28). And it remains God's principle for the SANCTIFICATION of a SAVED man. In essence the man suffers LOSS for God's interests, but God, in due time, will RECOMPENSE.

The world will plummet downhill and evil will turn into an avalanche. If you are a dead Christian, your account has been closed and you wait to give account. If you are a living Christian you are SAVED, but you still need to be saved from your corruption and uselessness in Gods economy. If you cooperate you will be REWARDED by missing the Great Tribulation. If you resist, God will leave you on earth. You cannot earn your salvation from God's appointed wrath. But you can earn an escape from his wrath on the ungodly. What good sense to read and apply God's way - even if it costs a temporary loss. What stupidity to NOT BELIEVE GOD. In Matthew 7:21-23 some very enthusiastic servants laid claim to the kingdom. They were utterly refused - not for their works, but because they did them without ORDERS. And how come they did not know their orders. They were great workers but had no INTIMACY with the General. Sounds like this happened in Ephesus in Revelation 2. Will you recognize your Genera when He passes through your barracks in the night with His ORDERS!

[WilliamL]

On 4/26/2024 at 4:58 PM, AdHoc said:

I think your argument fails with the word "WHOLE" or "ALL" (the earth). There is no place to sit it out.

Really?

Isaiah 33:16  He will dwell on high;

His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks;

Bread will be given him,

His water will be sure.

-- kind of like Elijah sitting out the 3-1/2 drought and being fed by ravens.

 

Edited April 28 by WilliamL

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The question always is; "do we study the Bible first by way of a bird's eye and then do the detail - or, the other way around?" Well, we all know that a puzzle is much easier to do with the picture on the box before our eyes. So lets take an elevated position.

God has a plan and joins Himself to man for its realization. The basic plan is;
1. Have a physical and visible expression of Himself - the invisible God
2. Have a ruler of this earth that depends on, and obeys Him
3. Have a spiritual House to dwell on earth
4. Have a physical Bride for His Son - the Man Jesus

For points 1 and 3 the man has to have a DISPOSITION - a Character that is expressed by his physical actions. For point 2 the man needs God's POWER. For point 4 man needs to be in Christ and come out of Him like Eve did. In coming out of her man has the same substance and vitality as Him except he is not the SOURCE.

For various reasons the first man did not carry out God's instructions and his DISPOSITION was utterly changed. He became an implacable enemy of his Maker. Man is like a snowball rolling down a hillside towards a furnace - a place of destruction of snowballs. In his way the snowball gets bigger, heavier and he is less likely to turn uphill again, unless some with power turns him.

But even if a man of giant strength stops the snowball and pushes it up the hill away from the fire, the man is still an offender of God, still an enemy of God, still prone to downward trajectory and still a snowball. So one can be saved from the fire but man needs a fundamental change. So God's work is TWOFOLD;
1. To SAVE a man without breaking His own laws of justice
2. To change a man without the man, still being an enemy, resisting God

Suppose God has decided that He will make the snowball a block of ice for building an House for Him (an igloo). He can apply pressure and blows to turn the soft snow into an ice block, but if the snow resists God and every evening undoes the work God has done, what can God do? He made the snowball to have its own will and He honors that. He sets a REWARD for cooperation. God has FOUR options:
1. He can leave the snowball to his own devices. But then His great effort and expense of SAVING the downward vector of the snowball is wasted, and He will have a reputation of a loser.
2. He can frighten the snowball into submission, but this a precarious situation because the snowball has no concept of the temperature of the flames and soon puts these unpleasant thoughts away
3. He can use His massive power to force the snowball into the ROLE but he will soon flag and be a bad ruler
4. He can offer a REWARD for loving Him and serving Him. This way he gets cooperative lovers who WANT to make Him happy.

And this is the story of the Bible. God loves His snowballs and does everything to SAVE them. But He SAVES them FOR A PURPOSE. The SAVING is applied if the snowball BELIEVES in God's Work. But the TRAINING for higher office is going to cost time, effort and self-discipline. This principle is the framework of the Law of God (see Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28). And it remains God's principle for the SANCTIFICATION of a SAVED man. In essence the man suffers LOSS for God's interests, but God, in due time, will RECOMPENSE.

The world will plummet downhill and evil will turn into an avalanche. If you are a dead Christian, your account has been closed and you wait to give account. If you are a living Christian you are SAVED, but you still need to be saved from your corruption and uselessness in Gods economy. If you cooperate you will be REWARDED by missing the Great Tribulation. If you resist, God will leave you on earth. You cannot earn your salvation from God's appointed wrath. But you can earn an escape from his wrath on the ungodly. What good sense to read and apply God's way - even if it costs a temporary loss. What stupidity to NOT BELIEVE GOD. In Matthew 7:21-23 some very enthusiastic servants laid claim to the kingdom. They were utterly refused - not for their works, but because they did them without ORDERS. And how come they did not know their orders. They were great workers but had no INTIMACY with the General. Sounds like this happened in Ephesus in Revelation 2. Will you recognize your Genera when He passes through your barracks in the night with His ORDERS!

I liked your analogy about the snowball. I recall a secular saying here in America: "Not a snowball's chance in Hell."

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Really?

Isaiah 33:16  He will dwell on high;

His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks;

Bread will be given him,

His water will be sure.

-- kind of like Elijah sitting out the 3-1/2 drought and being fed by ravens.

 

Noted. Thanks.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I liked your analogy about the snowball. I recall a secular saying here in America: "Not a snowball's chance in Hell."

I promised a few words on the Covenants.

Basically there are three Covenants. Some expositors count more, but I apply Hebrews 9:18-22 strictly. A Covenant with God must be declared so and ratified in blood.
1. That with Noah. Noah, new father of all men, represented "all flesh" in the Covenant of the rainbow (Gen.9:17). It is valid as long as winter and summer exist.
2. The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham and his Seed via Isaac and Jacob (Gen.15). It is an "everlasting Covenant".
3. The Covenant of Law made ONLY with Israel (Ex.34:27). It contains "sub-Covenants" for the Priesthood, Passover and the Royal House of David

In Jeremiah 31:31-33 God promises a New Covenant. It's attributes are that will replace that of Sinai with Moses, NOT in the conditions of Law (for the Law will not pass until heaven and earth pass), but in the way it is recorded. The change is not in its terms, but in a change of the Israelite. In the latter days, when Israel s ONE HOUSE again, it will replace that of Sinai. It was ratified in the blood of Jesus and is an "everlasting Covenant" (Jer.32:40)

The Church is under the Covenant of Noah. You may not eat blood. As the Lord's Kingdom over the Nations has not ye come, the Church has no business in government, so the death penalty should be supported but not called for by the Christian.

The Covenant of Promise was not made with us, but once Israel had rejected the Kingdom, and the Church become Heirs of the world, God, through very clever process, makes us SEED of Abraham but not seed of Jacob (Gal.3:29, Rom.4:13). Basically, God uses three LEGAL methods to include us in the Covenant of Promise.
1. He uses the fact that we were and are IN Christ (Jn.12:24) to make us seed of Abraham based on Christ and not on Jacob
2. He creates a "Commonwealth" of Israel. A Commonwealth gives trade privileges to another country without that country losing its sovereignty. The Christians become eligible for the Promises but without becoming an Israelite (Eph.2.11-13)
3. Adopting us. Adoption makes an outsider HEIR. We believers become Heirs to the Promises without being blood brothers of Israel

The Covenant of Law and the New Covenant of Law have nothing to do with the Church. Israel was offered FAITH which would have given them a heavenly birth, ended the matter of Law, and made them heirs to the world. But they refused it. A Covenant is not easily annulled so what you see in the last 2,700 years is simply the terms of the Covenant of Law applied to Israelites as per lawful terms within the Contract.

Any attempt by the Church to become involved in Law is a serious matter - as Galatians and Hebrews makes clear. The objection of many scholars that Jesus included the Church in the New Covenant is incorrect. Our Lord instituted the Lord's Table for the Church, and, as a second and separate move, ratified the New Covenant with His blood as per Hebrews 9. Jeremiah 31 is very clear. The New Covenant is made with ISRAEL ALONE. Jeremiah 31 tells WHEN- when Israel is ONE NATION again. And Israel is one nation again AFTER their resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and after Jesus gathers them from the "four winds" - to which ONLY Israel was scattered (Matt.24:31).

Ephesians 2:15 puts the matter to rest. God makes the New Man "OUT OF TWAIN". The "TWO" are (i) The Nations, and (ii) the Nation of Israel. God does not make a New Nation from the rest of men. He take SOME from Israel, and He takes SOME from the Gentiles. For this New Man the Law is crucified with Christ. The Law requires Israelites not to have relations with Gentiles. It is therefore THE ENEMY of the UNITY required in Ephesians 4. The New Man is a fully new creature. It has its own birth by the holy Spirit. IT does not, and cannot have a past. Ethnicity is abolished (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

I hope that gives some food for thought.

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I promised a few words on the Covenants.

Basically there are three Covenants. Some expositors count more, but I apply Hebrews 9:18-22 strictly. A Covenant with God must be declared so and ratified in blood.
1. That with Noah. Noah, new father of all men, represented "all flesh" in the Covenant of the rainbow (Gen.9:17). It is valid as long as winter and summer exist.
2. The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham and his Seed via Isaac and Jacob (Gen.15). It is an "everlasting Covenant".
3. The Covenant of Law made ONLY with Israel (Ex.34:27). It contains "sub-Covenants" for the Priesthood, Passover and the Royal House of David

In Jeremiah 31:31-33 God promises a New Covenant. It's attributes are that will replace that of Sinai with Moses, NOT in the conditions of Law (for the Law will not pass until heaven and earth pass), but in the way it is recorded. The change is not in its terms, but in a change of the Israelite. In the latter days, when Israel s ONE HOUSE again, it will replace that of Sinai. It was ratified in the blood of Jesus and is an "everlasting Covenant" (Jer.32:40)

The Church is under the Covenant of Noah. You may not eat blood. As the Lord's Kingdom over the Nations has not ye come, the Church has no business in government, so the death penalty should be supported but not called for by the Christian.

The Covenant of Promise was not made with us, but once Israel had rejected the Kingdom, and the Church become Heirs of the world, God, through very clever process, makes us SEED of Abraham but not seed of Jacob (Gal.3:29, Rom.4:13). Basically, God uses three LEGAL methods to include us in the Covenant of Promise.
1. He uses the fact that we were and are IN Christ (Jn.12:24) to make us seed of Abraham based on Christ and not on Jacob
2. He creates a "Commonwealth" of Israel. A Commonwealth gives trade privileges to another country without that country losing its sovereignty. The Christians become eligible for the Promises but without becoming an Israelite (Eph.2.11-13)
3. Adopting us. Adoption makes an outsider HEIR. We believers become Heirs to the Promises without being blood brothers of Israel

The Covenant of Law and the New Covenant of Law have nothing to do with the Church. Israel was offered FAITH which would have given them a heavenly birth, ended the matter of Law, and made them heirs to the world. But they refused it. A Covenant is not easily annulled so what you see in the last 2,700 years is simply the terms of the Covenant of Law applied to Israelites as per lawful terms within the Contract.

Any attempt by the Church to become involved in Law is a serious matter - as Galatians and Hebrews makes clear. The objection of many scholars that Jesus included the Church in the New Covenant is incorrect. Our Lord instituted the Lord's Table for the Church, and, as a second and separate move, ratified the New Covenant with His blood as per Hebrews 9. Jeremiah 31 is very clear. The New Covenant is made with ISRAEL ALONE. Jeremiah 31 tells WHEN- when Israel is ONE NATION again. And Israel is one nation again AFTER their resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and after Jesus gathers them from the "four winds" - to which ONLY Israel was scattered (Matt.24:31).

Ephesians 2:15 puts the matter to rest. God makes the New Man "OUT OF TWAIN". The "TWO" are (i) The Nations, and (ii) the Nation of Israel. God does not make a New Nation from the rest of men. He take SOME from Israel, and He takes SOME from the Gentiles. For this New Man the Law is crucified with Christ. The Law requires Israelites not to have relations with Gentiles. It is therefore THE ENEMY of the UNITY required in Ephesians 4. The New Man is a fully new creature. It has its own birth by the holy Spirit. IT does not, and cannot have a past. Ethnicity is abolished (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

I hope that gives some food for thought.

Now, that is a balance between covenant and dispensational theology if I have ever read one. Your detailed explanation would go a long way toward understanding Biblical history, prophecy, and the beliefs and conditions of the world today.

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. (Genesis 17:5) [nations-plural]

I was called out on a thread when I stated Abraham was a Gentile and not Jewish. As we know, Abraham was the father of many nations, and through Jacob [named Israel], the twelve tribes were formulated into God’s chosen people. The only thing in common with Islam and Christianity is Abraham. There cannot and will not be a divided two-state solution for Israel, dividing the land.

I will briefly say that the Muslims are deceived into believing Esau inherited the promises of Jacob and is entitled to the land. Today, that ancient hatred is manifesting into the fulfillment of end-time prophecy.  

 

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There cannot and will not be a divided two-state solution for Israel, dividing the land.

Little men will play politics. A Great God looks ... and laughs. He always has the final say. Nebuchadnezzar was the most fearsome autocrat. He was NOTHING when it came to Jehovah. Daniel 4:24–25;

24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king: 25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Jehovah has made PROMISES. His honor is at stake. His reputation is at stake. Run for cover ... !!!

[farouk]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Now, that is a balance between covenant and dispensational theology if I have ever read one. Your detailed explanation would go a long way toward understanding Biblical history, prophecy, and the beliefs and conditions of the world today.

 

 

Hi @Dennis1209 I think 1 Cor. 10.32 which talks about Jews, Gentiles and the church of God is a good guide and prism through which to approach the subject.