Remember the sabath day

[Pilgrim7]

Toothless?

I see a spirited discussion. You wrote:

{This pure supposition it's certianly not biblical, first of all there is not a sabbath mandate until Moses and Adam didn't work so he didn't need rest, and sin was not present in the garden so there was uninterrupted communion with the Father. The sabbath was not even instituted until after the Egyptian captivity and rest was really needed.}

Jesus says that He made the Sabbath Holy in the Garden. Jesus says that He made the Sabbath for all mankind, that would include Adam, and even you and me. If He made it for man, and not just the Jews as you assert, then it will be in existence as long as man is in existence. Jesus words are biblical and hardly supposition.

Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made (instituted) for man (mankind), and not man for the sabbath:

2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord (Creator) also of the sabbath. (now lets see, if it was instituted for mankind at creation for that is when man was created, then it must have already been in existence when the Israelites were in Israel. Maybe that is why He told them to remember it. It seems that during their captivity in Pagan Egypt they had forgotten it and needed to be reminded.)These are the words of your Saviour.

Now as to mandate or law. Are you under law that you have to have a law or mandate in order to obey God and keep His Sabbath holy. Christians love to do the will of God and don't need a law forcing them to obey for they have the New Covenant experience, that is the law written in their hearts, or a love righteousness and obedience dwelling within.

God gave us the night time for rest. The Sabbath is a ceasing from all things secular, not because we are tired, but for worship and adoration of our Creator for all mankind, to recharge the Spiritual batteries, from Adam to the end of time.

Adam had his labor and that was to dress and keep the Garden. He was a gardener. On the Sabbath he ceased his gardening and worshiped his Creator Who had made the Sabbath for Him as a blessing.

I will answer each point you make individually.

God Bless,

Dennis

[toothless]

I see a spirited discussion. You wrote:

{This pure supposition it's certianly not biblical, first of all there is not a sabbath mandate until Moses and Adam didn't work so he didn't need rest, and sin was not present in the garden so there was uninterrupted communion with the Father. The sabbath was not even instituted until after the Egyptian captivity and rest was really needed.}

Jesus says that He made the Sabbath Holy in the Garden. Jesus says that He made the Sabbath for all mankind, that would include Adam, and even you and me. If He made it for man, and not just the Jews as you assert, then it will be in existence as long as man is in existence. Jesus words are biblical and hardly supposition.

{They are supposition because they contradict other scripture, the first mention of Sabbath keeping is

in Ex. 20 and 31, the 31 version is never quoted by Sabbath advocates because in it is contained

the reason and persons to whom it is given, Israel not the other nations.}

Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made (instituted) for man (mankind), and not man for the sabbath:

{I have never understood why people quote this verse, the sabbath was made for what men? the men

to whom it was given, Israel. It actually lowers your position, Christ a Jew speaking to Jews is correcting

their veneration of the day.}

2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord (Creator) also of the sabbath. (now lets see, if it was instituted for mankind at creation for that is when

man was created,

{I would like a scripture to support this thought, the best I've seen is that God rested the seventh day

of creation week and blessed that day.}

then it must have already been in existence when the Israelites were in Israel. Maybe that is why He told them to remember it. It seems that during their captivity in Pagan Egypt they had forgotten it and needed to be reminded.)These are the words of your Saviour.

{Actually they are your words, to fit your theology, terms like, it seems, and it must have, indicate to

me you are supposing and using conjecture. Being a person who also like to ponder the scriptures

I wonder such things as why was circumcision given to Abram and not the law? Why would the cutting

off of the flesh be the first sign given to a chosen people, why is it Abraham is refered to as the Father

of the nation and not Moses, why is Abraham always linked to faith, and not law.

Permit me to suppose, it's because by faith we are saved and the same faith Abraham had is given

to us it's a faith that predates the law of seperation.}

Now as to mandate or law. Are you under law that you have to have a law or mandate in order to obey God and keep His Sabbath holy. Christians love to do the will of God and don't need a law forcing them to obey for they have the New Covenant experience, that is the law written in their hearts, or a love righteousness and obedience dwelling within.

{So your saying that you can choose to keep sabbath any way you choose, so it's not a matter of the

law being written in stone, it's now in our hearts, so if I drive a snow plow truck on sabbath to keep

people safe then that's ok?}

God gave us the night time for rest. The Sabbath is a ceasing from all things secular, not because we are tired, but for worship and adoration of our Creator for all mankind, to recharge the Spiritual batteries, from Adam to the end of time.

{What I find confusing is why? In Christ is rest, in him is worship, what good is calling one day special

when every day is spent in contemplation of his word, in Hebrews it speaks of entering into his rest

that rest is Christ, now I should enter a second works based rest in addition to the faith based rest

I already have. This places a works based rest above the rest in Christ.}

Adam had his labor and that was to dress and keep the Garden. He was a gardener. On the Sabbath he ceased his gardening and worshiped his Creator Who had made the Sabbath for Him as a blessing.

{Where does it say Adam rested on the seventh day? I'm sorry this makes no sense, Adam had open

unrestricted access to God face to face so to speak, but your claiming he had to stop and worship,

I think you underestimate Adam, compared to Einstein it would be as though he were speaking to

a child, Adam would have been fully enguaged in the most brilliant theological discussions of all time

to claim he had to stop and worship is just silly. After the fall God asks the retorical question where

are you, implicit in this comment is the break in the communion, but your positon places a need for

a special time proir to sin.}

{ For the sake of saving time I'll list the difficulties of Sabbath advocates.

One, how to keep it in faith without referring to the law.

Two, it contradicts the Jerusalem councel in Acts.

Three, there are no scriptures that advocate it for Gentile converts to Christianity.

Four, there is condemnation placed on those who do not keep Torah perfectly, Sabbath is a Torah

mandated observation, it is a works based legal matter.

Five, as a matter of law the death penalty was used for sabbath violations, there are specific

ways for proper sabbth observance, to claim you do not have to keep these methods of mandated

observance is to claim you can disobey the finer points and use your own understanding in place

of God's word. If the law has not passed away then every jot and tittle must be kept.

Six, the inclusion of law into a faith based Christian always degrades faith because now the

law threatens punishment and clouds the nature of genunie grace, invariably works are included

as a component of salvation. The question of the disciples what works must I do is perverted

to include the law, Christ said the works required were to believe on whom God had sent.}

[Pilgrim7]

Toothless,

I am amazed. Abraham and the Patriarchs showed their faith by works of obedinece and now those with the law of God written in their heart show their faith by no works of obedience. Strange doctrine. I guess that we are free to make our own doctrine. I guess that All of Scripture is not profitable for instruction in righteousness. I think that you ought to at least tell us how much of the Bible that you don't believe.

I see you conveniently left out the words of Jesus when He said that He made the Sabbath for mankind. Was Adam part of mankind. Are you part of mankind. You dodge the real issue. I'm sure that you believe what Jesus said. I'm sure He knew what He was saying.

With your take on the Scriptures, we must necessarily leave out all the scriptures that deal with striving, laboring, fighting, running the race, enduring, resisting the devil and overcoming sin. You see we don't really have the rest from those yet, what we have is the necessary strength to fight the fight and overcome even as He overcame. Maybe we have the wrong term, maybe the correct term for 'rest' is really lazy and cowardly.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I wonder why Paul tells the Hebrew believers that they needed to labor to enter into this rest that you say all believers already have.

God Bless,

Dennis

[toothless]

Toothless,

I am amazed. Abraham and the Patriarchs showed their faith by works of obedinece and now those with the law of God written in their heart show their faith by no works of obedience. Strange doctrine. I guess that we are free to make our own doctrine. I guess that All of Scripture is not profitable for instruction in righteousness. I think that you ought to at least tell us how much of the Bible that you don't believe.

Well I noticed you didn't bother to address one of my questions, I can only assume it is because

you have no answers, the next best thing is to attack the questioner.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Pilgrim,

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I wonder why Paul tells the Hebrew believers that they needed to labor to enter into this rest that you say all believers already have.

Actually there is no proof that Paul wrote Hebrews and as is the title of the epistle, it is written to the Hebrews not neccessarily believers.

Hebrews is an epistle to the Jews showing how much better the new covenant is compared to the old and that Jesus is Messiah. Some call Hebrews the book of betters.

As far as your question:

I wonder why Paul tells the Hebrew believers that they needed to labor to enter into this rest that you say all believers already have

Have you considered the the verses in the same chapter that you have quoted?

Hebrews 4

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I also find it interesting that after the book of Acts, the Sabbath is only mentioned 1 time:

Colossians 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

I also find it interesting that the ony verse that reference the Sabbath in the epistles is one that tells us to not let anyone judge us according to sabbath days, it doesnt tell us to keep the Sabbath.

We have entered into our rest in Christ.

Hi Toothless,

I said I have, all believers may not it, seems statically unlikely that all find the rest in Christ, they

simply don't bother, it is promised though. I find it most interesting you stand in a public forum and

proclaim your brand of obidence is superior to mine and yet don't even answer a few questions

as to how to properly obey the sabbath regulations. Are you still stoning sabbath breakers?

Cooking meals, carrying loads, using electricty,natural gas, driving, paying tithe ( a finanicial transaction )

causing others to work because you won't.

I suspect you keep sabbath the way you choose, I'll bet you don't follow biblical criteria,

my guess and it's only a guess is you think going to church is sabbath keeping, so the point

you made about me in the opening comment is most likely true of yourself, pick what you want

and disreguard the rest.

Pretty fair questions.

In Jesus

kevin

[wordsower]

I think there are some erring christians that think Sunday is the Sabbath. We know one on the board--Suzanne--I'm talking about you, love ya sis!

I do realize that, but I do not believe it, there is no scriptural basis for it and it's just not so. My church doesn't teach it, the church I attended before this one didn't teach it, Joyce Meyer doesn't, many, many others, in fact, I don't know of anyone that teaches it.

As a former SDA, you certainly know that the RCC teaches that Sunday is the "Christian" sabbath which they claim to have changed and this proves that they have authority over other denominations. This is what the SDA calls the "mark of the beast"

I certainly do not agree with them...but that is what they say.

Yet every denomination you could name has a regular weekly meeting one day out of seven. This fact alone shows that they believe the 4th commandment is still applicable and relevant today.

Paul did mention that the people should set aside their tithes when he would come on the first day of the week, so there was some Sunday meetings going on.

Paul told them he would come by on the first day of the week because he would never travel on the Sabbath. Did pagans have a day of rest? The Sabbath is unique in that way.

Then there were some that just did not want to be associated with Jews, and set aside the first day of the week.

And this is how the gentile church broke off into a "denomination" and the RCC began...as an anti-semetic institution who decided to make it's own laws

Jesus is the only bridge to reconnect us to a personal relationship with God.

100% agree

I am convicted that we should observe every day alike, because in my heart, to observe a day would mean to not observe the other days, to sort of take a break from God for 6 days.

You are convicted differently and because Jesus has set us free we are both right.

Not exactly.

I am convicted and convinced that every day belongs to Him....but He did give a specific command about the Sabbath which He has never recinded. Yes, the Sabbath speaks of something greater but that doesn't mean that His Commandments were temporary suggestions that don't matter anymore. To say otherwise would be error that is the only reason I get into these debates.

I liken it thusly;

All my possessions are His. Yet I am charged with being a good steward of these earthly carnal things. The tithe was established by the Lord as a means of keeping my heart faithful in possessions so I can choose to do that (for my good) or not.

Again...everyone who sets aside one day out of seven as completely dedicated to Him is establishing that the Sabbath is still in effect and that it is good to obey the Lord in this way. The only difference is that some have chosen a different day than the one given for this purpose.

I do not want this to be a point of contention as we are both saved and know it and we are told not to dispute doubtful things, so love ya bro!

And neither do I want this to be a point of contention. As far as I know, it never has been between us?

What is "doubtful" about this, though?

Happy New Year!!

Ya know, after 3 years I finally figured out how to quote the whole post, annoying isn't it?

Yod,

RCC???? Show me one error of the RCC and I'll show you 10. I have a dear friend that is Catholic, but honey, they are WHACK. So, blah blah blah to the pope.

I'm not buying that every denomination meets one day of the week showing that they observe the 4th commandment. Maybe a few dead churches meet once a week but most meet at least Wednesday also and mine meets 3 times, Sunday Tuesday and Wednesday and many times on SATURDAY, imagine that! Besides, they don't meet any of those days claiming that it is the Sabbath. We have the gift shop open, which would violate the buying and selling law, we travel, cook, whatever else on the same day, which brings me to my next point: Who is really observing the Sabbath as the law demands anyway? A few Orthodox Jews, possibly, but who else?

If we are going to adhere to the law, don't we have to do it all? Isn't that the entire point of Galatians?

Well, I'm tired of it for a while, so I'll take a break. My SDA mom is in town, for 10 days, I'm stressed, I'm actually at work on my vacation, that is how stressed I am.

Love yall Sabbatarians!

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not buying that every denomination meets one day of the week showing that they observe the 4th commandment. Maybe a few dead churches meet once a week but most meet at least Wednesday also and mine meets 3 times, Sunday Tuesday and Wednesday and many times on SATURDAY, imagine that! Besides, they don't meet any of those days claiming that it is the Sabbath. We have the gift shop open, which would violate the buying and selling law, we travel, cook, whatever else on the same day, which brings me to my next point: Who is really observing the Sabbath as the law demands anyway? A few Orthodox Jews, possibly, but who else?

Yod's point is that meeting on Sunday is a holdover from the Catholic Church's declaration that Sunday is the "new Sabbath." Ultimately Sunday worship has its roots in the 1st commandment. That is simple historic fact, so it doesn't matter if you "buy it" or not.

Yes, they meet other days of the week, but Sunday is the primary day churches meet. Having services on Wed. or on other days of the week is a more modern tradition as means of adapting to the schedules of those who for whatever reason cannot meet on Sunday.

Whether they claim Sunday is the Sabbath or not, isn't the point. The point is that Sunday meetings are an outgrowth of the fourth commandment, again it is historic fact that cannot be refuted.

[ted]

Yes, they meet other days of the week, but Sunday is the primary day churches meet. Having services on Wed. or on other days of the week is a more modern tradition as means of adapting to the schedules of those who for whatever reason cannot meet on Sunday.

Hey Brother,

May I also add that services held on Wed are done as a "mid-week refresher", something to help us out between Sunday services?

Tradtionally, many churches hold services during the week for this reason, as well.

Peace,

t.

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, they meet other days of the week, but Sunday is the primary day churches meet. Having services on Wed. or on other days of the week is a more modern tradition as means of adapting to the schedules of those who for whatever reason cannot meet on Sunday.

Hey Brother,

May I also add that services held on Wed are done as a "mid-week refresher", something to help us out between Sunday services?

Tradtionally, many churches hold services during the week for this reason, as well.

Peace,

t.

That is true, but I was referring more to the traditions of having alternative services on Fridays and Saturdays for those who cannot meet on Sunday. Plus I know people who only go to church during the midweek due to the fact that they serve as emergency personell (Police, Fire, etc.) and are on duty on weekends. For the longest time, Churches met on Sunday only. Sunday has always been the preferred and primary day for churches to meet.

[ted]

Word.

t.