My observations, forgive my honesty...

[Indentured Servant]

Why, in claiming to know Scripture, do Christians use [man-made] doctrinal interpretations instead of  God's Word?

Is there no one that believes what Scripture actually says?

I've seen prominent preachers make statements like:

"Apostasy doesn't mean apostasy." (this appears in a book , so it's verifiable) [J.MacArthur]

"Mystery (Babylon the great whore) is a real city that, if we knew it's exact location, we could go there today." [FBC Fernandina Beach, 2023];

"God is unsafe!" (Using a fictional fantasy story to prove God character) [R.Jeffress, FBC Dallas];

There seems to be a movement among theologically inept experts to make proclamations that nothing in scripture is what it says, but means something that isn't said... Despite [contextual] Scripture to the contrary.

I've noticed an increased 'trickle down' to churches, individual followers, and I've seen a tremendous increase on social media, even here, on WCF.

I've read many different posts whereas people, with different viewpoints, make such comments as, "numbers mean nothing in scripture," "Israel is no longer Israel," that the symbol of a scroll is really a nuclear bomb," "don't trust the ancient texts, trust English," and a plethora of odd statements... 

Why are so many drawn to redefining Scripture? This creates conflict among believers. It's not so much differing denominations, or doctrines, that make us different... We now push to make "new"  interpretations of scripture, and demanding that others use only those scriptures that can be used to assert a specific belief.

My personal observation shows me that people believe everything they hear from the pulpit, whether scriptural or not. 

Many have set aside scriptural references to use only to verify their narrative; never have I seem people who developed their under of God's Word in the way God has encouraged us to pursue...

Which is, relying on the Holy Spirit to teach, to answer specific questions, and to provide wisdom to understand prophecy, parables, visions, etc.

 

I have this little "testing of the spirits" that I practice... It is this, I quote Scripture without telling someone it is Scripture verbatim... Too many times, they respond by calling me a heretic, or "preaching a foreign doctrine." 

I'm just the last two days, I've had people tell me I was wrong about scripture... Why? Because I believe what Scripture says, above what someone's preacher taught them to believe.

 

This breaks my heart...

 

Edited March 25 by Indentured Servant
To warn others of something that may be offensive, and for clarity.

[FriendofJonathan]

4 minutes ago, Indentured Servant said:

Why, in claiming to know Scripture, do Christians use doctrinal interpretations instead of  God's Word?

Is there no one that believes what Scripture actually says?

I've seen prominent preachers make statements like:

"Apostasy doesn't mean apostasy." (this appears in a book , so it's verifiable) [J.MacArthur]

"Mystery (Babylon the great whore) is a real city that, if we knew it's exact location, we could go there today." [FBC Fernandina Beach, 2023];

"God is unsafe!" (Using a fictional fantasy story to prove God character) [R.Jeffress, FBC Dallas];

There seems to be a movement among theologically inept experts to make proclamations that nothing in scripture is what it says, but means something that isn't said... Despite Scripture to the contrary.

I've noticed an increased 'trickle down' to churches, individual followers, and I've seen a tremendous increase on social media, even here, on WCF.

I've read many different posts whereas people, with different viewpoints, make such comments as, "numbers mean nothing in scripture," "Israel is no longer Israel," that the symbol of a scroll is really a nuclear bomb," "don't trust the ancient texts, trust English," and a plethora of odd statements... 

Why are so many drawn to redefining Scripture? This creates conflict among believers. It's not so much differing denominations, or doctrines, that make us different... We now push to make "new"  interpretations of scripture, and demanding that others use only those scriptures that can be used to assert a specific belief.

My personal observation shows me that people believe everything they hear from the pulpit, whether scriptural or not. 

Many have set aside scriptural references to use only to verify their narrative; never have I seem people who developed their under of God's Word in the way God has encouraged us to pursue...

Which is, relying on the Holy Spirit to teach, to answer specific questions, and to provide wisdom to understand prophecy, parables, visions, etc.

 

I have this little "testing of the spirits" that I practice... It is this, I quote Scripture without telling someone it is Scripture verbatim... Too many times, they respond by calling me a heretic, or "preaching a foreign doctrine." 

I'm just the last two days, I've had people tell me I was wrong about scripture... Why? Because I believe what Scripture says, above what someone's preacher taught them to believe.

 

This breaks my heart...

 

What you've basically said is what the Bible says is true of all men, namely: we are all sinners that fall short of the glory of God.  Accordingly, we will never achieve a standard of perfection, not even in completely and without error understanding the word of God.  

That said:  if it is contrary to settled essential doctrine, then it is heresy. Therefore rebuke it. If it is heterodoxical, reproof and correct it.

Otherwise, give liberty to those who differ in nonessentials.  It will all work out in the end. 

[Indentured Servant]

24 minutes ago, FriendofJonathan said:

if it is contrary to settled essential doctrine, then it is heresy.

I do thank you for your response. 

I don't weigh Scripture against "settled essential doctrine." No man has the right to claim a doctrine to explain scripture... Scripture is my doctrine, (if it's expected for me to claim an essential doctrine.)

My issue is with the many teachers that Christianity has heaped up for themselves to tickle their itching ears.

Christianity, at least in western culture, prefers human teachers over the Holy Spirit. 

I can't comprehend this... It should be obvious, but there is so much focus on being told, "what you should believe," so many miss what they should really believe.

 

24 minutes ago, FriendofJonathan said:

.  Accordingly, we will never achieve a standard of perfection, not even in completely and without error understanding the word of God

I am not concerned about innocent error of an individual believer, nor of those falling short of the glory of God, .. I speak of the pulpit, which establishes the doctrinal narrative of its followers . I am issuing an indictment against those who have manipulated scripture with made-up stuff to impress others with a false persona of wisdom. Heresy is more common from the pulpit, and causes greater damage the message of God.

 

24 minutes ago, FriendofJonathan said:

give liberty to those who differ in nonessentials. 

Differences in non-essentials don't bother me... manipulation and willful ignorance- that's the problem.

Thank you for responding. 

[Live2believe]

56 minutes ago, Indentured Servant said:

Why, in claiming to know Scripture, do Christians use doctrinal interpretations instead of  God's Word?

Is there no one that believes what Scripture actually says?

Believing is not enough without understanding. For example,

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (John 6:53).

How does one drink his blood?

[Indentured Servant]

Just now, Live2believe said:

Believing is not enough without understanding. For example,

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (John 6:53).

How does one drink his blood?

This is certainly a good example of something that people misunderstand... and misteach...

Gosh, there are even people who believe they are eating the literal flesh and blood of Jesus. 

Where did this teaching originate?

Nowhere else but the pulpit, theology, doctrine, religion without the Holy Spirit as teacher. 

Are we to accept what is said from the pulpit, as most do, or do consult personally with God for the true meaning of this?

It is no man's call to reinterpret scripture by just fabricating from their imagination.

 

 

[FriendofJonathan]

52 minutes ago, Indentured Servant said:

I don't weigh Scripture against "settled essential doctrine."

You understand doctrine is another word for teaching?  And I'm sure you understand scripture exhorts us that all scripture is profitable for doctrine. (2 Timothy 3:16). 

If a particular teaching of scripture is essential to the Christian faith, and has been so deemed for nearly 2,000 years, is it your position that it is not settled and you are free to interpret it differently? 

[Indentured Servant]

8 minutes ago, FriendofJonathan said:

You understand doctrine is another word for teaching?  And I'm sure you understand scripture exhorts us that all scripture is profitable for doctrine. (2 Timothy 3:16). 

If a particular teaching of scripture is essential to the Christian faith, and has been so deemed for nearly 2,000 years, is it your position that it is not settled and you are free to interpret it differently? 

The Greek word for teaching/doctrine has more to do with "instruction" in practice rather than just sharing of knowledge.

 

I don't interpret scripture. I read scripture, have questions, ask Him for guidance, understanding, insight, and wisdom. God interprets scripture. 

I used to attempt to interpret scripture via "teachings" from the pulpit, man-made doctrines, but it left me feeling distant from God. 

 

My comments regarding "doctrine" are solely in relation to stuff that men say in addition to, or in contrast to, God's sufficient word.

True, there are some things that are more easily understood about ancient cultures and such, but for preachers, and theologians, to speak or draft an interpretation of scripture that was borne by their educational and self-appointed status as "expert," (or from their imagination) and not the actual words of Scripture and the Holy Spirit, is a sorry excuse for biblical teaching.

I have taught more by just reading one of Paul's letters, without my, (or anyone else's), personal interpretation. God's word is, or should be, simple to read and speak, without trying to define it constantly.

[FriendofJonathan]

46 minutes ago, Indentured Servant said:

The Greek word for teaching/doctrine has more to do with "instruction" in practice rather than just sharing of knowledge.

 

I don't interpret scripture. I read scripture, have questions, ask Him for guidance, understanding, insight, and wisdom. God interprets scripture. 

I used to attempt to interpret scripture via "teachings" from the pulpit, man-made doctrines, but it left me feeling distant from God. 

 

My comments regarding "doctrine" are solely in relation to stuff that men say in addition to, or in contrast to, God's sufficient word.

True, there are some things that are more easily understood about ancient cultures and such, but for preachers, and theologians, to speak or draft an interpretation of scripture that was borne by their educational and self-appointed status as "expert," (or from their imagination) and not the actual words of Scripture and the Holy Spirit, is a sorry excuse for biblical teaching.

I have taught more by just reading one of Paul's letters, without my, (or anyone else's), personal interpretation. God's word is, or should be, simple to read and speak, without trying to define it constantly.

Others you disagree with may claim to be doing precisely what you claim to be doing, namely: asking Him for guidance, understanding, insight, and wisdom.  And then let God interpret scripture, and then teach from that place of understanding. 

I agree there are many false and corrupt teachers in the world. But not all are.  

However, when you judge others who do the same thing you say you are doing, then you are judging yourself, because you do the same. 

[Indentured Servant]

 

12 hours ago, FriendofJonathan said:

Others you disagree with may claim to be doing precisely what you claim to be doing

I started this thread, if anyone is disagreeing with others, it's not me.

Is it laughable that your little "judge not that yet be judged" comment assumes I'm the one in the wrong.

I agree people ask for wisdom, guidance, etc... no one has ever given any indication that God directly answered them... when people refuse to open their Bibles when I attempt to show them Scripture, I consider them to be unconcerned about anything but their personal doctrinal stance.

Case in point:

A nice gentleman says that Zechariah's vision of a scroll with specific writing on it, is actually an atomic bomb, I offered insight that a scroll,(regardless of its size), is a pronouncement of God that the prophet is required to deliver to His people.

Every contextual information about this vision could not be explained in light of nuclear weaponry, so it was all ignored by this individual who insisted that all the prophet saw was a large cylinder that was going to track down bad people, kill them, and destroy their houses. This scroll, or nuclear bomb, was commissioned by God, and was being sent by God. 

A basket (woven, obviously), that contained a women called iniquity (symbol of the House of Judah) was being prepared to be taken to Babylonia but yet, he can only see references to nuclear power.

 

I don't ignore Scripture.  My sole priority is to point people to scripture, and not to what I personally believe. 

This topic is about how people pull verses out of context, assign some new or unusual meaning to it,  and claim it's truth. 

Please read Zechariah 5 and tell me that it is about nothing but nuclear weaponry. 

As well, using one of my other examples, I've never asserted, (in a church and over the radio), that "Mystery Babylon" is a current city in the world that is the source of the LBGTQ movement. 

THAT'S what I'm talking about, people just making stuff up at the refusal to consider context of the passage.

If those people who come up with these ideas are getting them from God, then scripture is rendered ineffective, as many things that people assert are asserting are opposite of what Scripture presents.

I've judged no one, but I do have the Spirit given responsibility to evaluate things that are said and direct people back to God's Word, not to current events.

 

[FriendofJonathan]

8 minutes ago, Indentured Servant said:

Is it laughable that your little "judge not that yet be judged" comment assumes I'm the one in the wrong.

I wasn't suggesting you were wrong.  Only that you are doing what other "well-meaning teachers and preachers" do.

Take for example, John Nelson Darby. It's reported that he began a theological movement on the visions and dreams of sickly teenaged girl named Margaret Macdonald. 

Or Ellen G. White,  who in the mid 19th century claimed to have dreams and visions from God, and wrote extensively about them.  The Seventh Day Adventists to this day proclaim her writings prophetic and from God, and they rely heavily upon them to determine the meaning of scripture. 

Also: Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, C. I. Scofield, Peter Ruckman, and so many others whose followers rely upon their writings to determine the correct application and interpretation of scripture.