What is Faith? What is "Good Works"?

[Copper Scroll]

This discussion splinters off of the "man's evil nature" thread, which partially became a "faith vs good works" thread.

As I said, you seem to be confusing law and gospel.

What exactly is meant by "law" and "gospel"?

If you believe doing the things commanded by Jesus in terms of feeding the hungry or giving drink to the thirsty will gain you entrance into Heaven, keep this in mind; each and every time you encounter someone hungry or thirsty or in any need whatsoever, you must stop and render service and you must do it perfectly and without failure. Fail to do that just one time and you will go to hell. Have a nice day and thanks for playing.

So you are saying that what Jesus commanded was wrong, because it is hard to do? Also, what scripture supports the claim that this "law" must be done "perfectly and without failure"?

The Law makes no allowances for mistakes or failure, not even one time.

So since we are all bound to break this law from time to time, we might as well abandon it?

Now I don't know you but I would be willing to wager a lot of money that you have not met the requirements of the Law.

Since you don't know me, I'm probably not the best example to use here.

The Law is good but it is not a remedy for sin. Keeping the law or trying to keep it does nothing for us in terms of making it to Heaven.

So you reject Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 10:25-37? It's "good" but its wrong?

Only the Gospel and faith in Christ does that. As Phillip Melancthon said, the Law always accuses. Good works flow from faith to be sure. But works are never good enough to bring us before the Father. Only the righteousness of Christ does that.

If you believe your works are of value in gaining entrance to Heaven I would urge you reconsider what Christianity really is about and what the Gospel really means.

Could those of you on St. Worm's side of this issue explain what is meant by "faith"?

Edited February 6, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[st. Worm]

copper, I don't know if you are doing it with intent or not but you are misrepresenting what I have said. I have never said the law is to be abandoned by Christians. However, we must acknowledge our inability to keep the law if we are to truly receive the gospel. That is called repentance.

The Law requires perfection at every step. God does not grade us on the curve. Only one was able to keep the Law perfectly and thereby please God through the Law. Only Jesus did that and we obtain the status of perfect Law keepers only through faith in Him. That is the point of the Gospel. The good news is that Jesus kept the Law and by trusting in Him we are counted as having done so.

As Christians the Law acts as a guide for us but we can never keep it well enough to come before God with the Law. As Jesus said if we break one command we have broken them all. The Law cannot make us clean. Its primary purpose is to show us our sin and point us the Christ.

If you don't know the difference at least in some sense between the Law and the Gospel then I with great sorrow say you probably are not a Christian.

I reject none of Scripture but as Paul wrote, the Letter kills and the Spirit gives life. If you accept the whole of God's Word then you must know that the commands are of no value to us in salvation. Please see the encounter between Jesus and the rich young ruler for a slice of what Jesus thought of someone who claimed to be a good enough law keeper to please God.

I would suggest reading what Paul says about the Law in Romans 7 and 8. There was no better Christian than Paul yet he eloquently writes that the Law does nothing but condemn him.

Faith fulfills what the Law cannot.

[Copper Scroll]

copper, I don't know if you are doing it with intent or not but you are misrepresenting what I have said. I have never said the law is to be abandoned by Christians.

It was unintentional. It seemed that you implied the "law" might as well be abandoned by saying that trying to follow the "law" doesn't matter to God.

However, we must acknowledge our inability to keep the law if we are to truly receive the gospel. That is called repentance

I think I agree with this, but what do you mean exactly by "gospel"?

The Law requires perfection at every step. God does not grade us on the curve.

Do you have scripture that supports this?

Only one was able to keep the Law perfectly and thereby please God through the Law. Only Jesus did that and we obtain the status of perfect Law keepers only through faith in Him. That is the point of the Gospel. The good news is that Jesus kept the Law and by trusting in Him we are counted as having done so.

So by "faith" you mean trust or is there more to "faith"?

As Christians the Law acts as a guide for us but we can never keep it well enough to come before God with the Law. As Jesus said if we break one command we have broken them all. The Law cannot make us clean. Its primary purpose is to show us our sin and point us the Christ.

It seems that Jesus might have made some mention of this when he said essentially that loving God and one another would bring us eternal life... like when someone asks "What do I need to do to gain eternal life?" he might say "Well, it's impossible for you, but be like me--love God and love everyone--feed the hungry, nurse the sick, house the homeless, etc."

If you don't know the difference at least in some sense between the Law and the Gospel then I with great sorrow say you probably are not a Christian.

I am not sorrowful. These "law" and "gospel" you refer to are doctrinal notions and doctrine are man's tools. What I am asking is How do you use these tools? How do you apply these concepts? What do they mean? I don't need your judgement. Judgement belongs to God.

I reject none of Scripture but as Paul wrote, the Letter kills and the Spirit gives life.

Agreed.

If you accept the whole of God's Word

"the Letter"?

then you must know that the commands are of no value to us in salvation. Please see the encounter between Jesus and the rich young ruler for a slice of what Jesus thought of someone who claimed to be a good enough law keeper to please God.

Yes, and Jesus talked about how hard it is for a rich man to do right. One would think he would also say it is hard for anyone--rich or poor or weak or strong--to do right, if your doctrine is true.

I would suggest reading what Paul says about the Law in Romans 7 and 8. There was no better Christian than Paul yet he eloquently writes that the Law does nothing but condemn him.

Thank you. But isn't Paul referring here to the Jewish law? For the purposes of this scripture there seems an important distinction between the laws as taught by the Pharisees and the principles underlying the law as emphasized by Jesus--to love God and to love one another. The former lists what one should not do more than what one should do. Paul notes that the commandments of what not to do inspired him to sin. The latter only speaks to what one should do. It is hard to imagine how one would be inspired to sin by being told to love God and to love others as oneself.

Faith fulfills what the Law cannot.

I do love the scripture you point out, and I feel that we are mostly in agreement. As you (I think) and others have noted, love and good deeds should be a natural product of faith in Jesus. But since faith in Jesus for many is such a mystified notion, saying good deeds and unconditional love (which are not at all mystified) don't matter to God is not just dangerous; it degrades good and charitable efforts for which many in this world sacrifice themselves, and it degrades the powerful impact unconditional love make in our society.

Thanks again.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[Guest truespirit]

The good news is that Jesus kept the Law and by trusting in Him we are counted as having done so.

There ya go', worm~. That's what we needed to here. I understand your position now, and it's accurate.

The only thing I still have to say, though, is that even though we will never be the equal to Jesus Christ, I'm always going to be convinced that for any of those struggling with issues of faith/belief from time to time, one of the clearest "Proofs" there has ever been for me is to feel the impact of doing a good act here or there from within, and I attribute that to the Holy Spirit in us.

The "Feeling" I'm talking about isn't anything along the lines of, "Look at what I just did, Good for me," but rather the overall internal message that can come (In certain circumstances) from merely experiencing something in line with what Jesus asked of us, though none of us will ever come close to the perfection of Jesus, you're exactly right.

I see what you were talking about now, worm. Thanks for the good explanation here. Take care.

Edited February 6, 2006 by truespirit

[st. Worm]

Your quote:

"I think I agree with this, but what do you mean exactly by "gospel"?"

Answer:

The gospel is the truth that Christ came in the form of a man to fulfill for us that which we could not and took our sin and punishment upon Himself. That is the gospel or good news. The question is do you believe that or do you believe that you can please God by keeping the Law yourself? Only you can answer that.

You improperly say doctrine is a "man's tool". The Bible and the Apostle talks about doctrine and why sound doctrine is important. Not sure how or why you say doctrine is only a "man's tools" concept.

The Law is the same and was given through the Jews. The law consists of the ceremonial laws, the judicial laws and the moral law of the 10 commandments. The summation of the 10 commandments is restated by Jesus as love of God and love of neighbor. Nothing wrong with that except we cannot do them well enough to save us by doing them. You cannot take one part of Scripture that commands us to do something and then ignore the rest which tells us we can't do it. The point of the entirety of Scripture is that Christ fulfilled the Law for us and offers us salvation through Him. The Old Testament points towards the New. Scripture has continuity. The OT types and shadows including the blood sacrafices point to Jesus.

The point of the story of the rich young ruler is not that he was rich but that he was foolish to think he had kept the Law. Jesus obviously makes a mockery of that idea.

The pharisees had a very shallow concept of the Law. They thought they were keeping it and based on what you have written it appears you have the same shallow concept. I am not judging your salvation yet you have expressed ideas that would make one think you have no idea what the Gospel is and why it is of ultimate importance.

[Copper Scroll]

The gospel is the truth that Christ came in the form of a man to fulfill for us that which we could not and took our sin and punishment upon Himself. That is the gospel or good news.

Agreed. Now, this goes back to a point made by another poster--a Catholic, I think. He argued that believing the gospel is true would not be enough to earn salvation, because a person could believe that this event happened but still practice evil everyday--like the devil, was his example. I would tend to agree with this poster.

The question is do you believe that or do you believe that you can please God by keeping the Law yourself? Only you can answer that.

By asking what you mean by "faith" and "gospel" and by arguing that good works/unconditional love are important, I don't mean to say faith in the gospel is not important.

You improperly say doctrine is a "man's tool". The Bible and the Apostle talks about doctrine and why sound doctrine is important. Not sure how or why you say doctrine is only a "man's tools" concept.

Doctrine is what we use (tool) to help make sense of our reality and to give justification for why do certain things.

The Law is the same and was given through the Jews. The law consists of the ceremonial laws, the judicial laws and the moral law of the 10 commandments. The summation of the 10 commandments is restated by Jesus as love of God and love of neighbor.

To me there are important differences. Jesus himself broke certain laws enforced by the Pharisees. Jesus' teachings critique the Law--they don't just paraphrase it.

The pharisees had a very shallow concept of the Law. They thought they were keeping it and based on what you have written it appears you have the same shallow concept.

Could you explain how our concepts are alike?

I am not judging your salvation yet you have expressed ideas that would make one think you have no idea what the Gospel is and why it is of ultimate importance.

Again, my asking you what you mean by "gospel" does not mean that I don't know what it is or that it is important. My problem mainly lies in your minimizing the importance of unconditional love and good deeds. My questions mainly have to do with making sure we are using certain terms the same way.

[st. Worm]

Just to answer a few of your points copper:

The Catholic poster has a different view of faith and works than Protestant believers. RCC's do believe their works are meritorious. That was the main issue of Luther's Reformation. Justification before God is through faith in Christ and His works alone. Our works play no part in it. Of course there are those who claim faith in Christ but whose faith is not genuine. That however does not mean we are not justified by faith alone. True faith gives rise to good works yet the works are still tainted since we are sinners and will be until we die.

You keep mentioning unconditional love. Humans are not really capable of unconditional love. Once again the problem is our sin nature which we will always have in this life. Therefore our love will alway be tainted and never perfectly unconditional. Jesus exhibited unconditional love for His people. He went to the Cross even though we ridiculed and spat upon Him. His love was not based on our giving Him anything in return. Our love always wants something in return, some type of gratification such as good feelings.

Doctrine is what Paul says is our understanding of God's Word. We can never interpret and understand the Bible perfectly yet Paul severely critciizes those who adopt bad doctrine. Doctrine is important and not just related to the ideas you have expressed.

Jesus kept the Law perfectly. He did not break it at all. If he had he would not be God and our faith in Him would be useless. He did not keep the law with regard to the way the Pharisees understood the law which was a legalistic surface way.

As I said I think you also appear to have a shallow and surface understanding of the Law. You imply that it is something we can do to please God. You don't seem to understand that the law requires absolute perfection and is relentless in its demands. Using the law as a guide for our faith and saying we are keeping the Law in a way that pleases God are two completely different things.

Pascal once said that the righteousness of a religious man is measured more on his realization of what a sinner he is. You might think about that as you consider your ability to please God through good works.

Blessings

SW

[Waimahia]

St Worm wrote, "The gospel is the truth that Christ came in the form of a man to fulfill for us that which we could not and took our sin and punishment upon Himself. That is the gospel or good news."

That is part of the gospel though the whole gospel is actually much more than that.

Christ preached the gospel Mark 1:14 - 15

He sent the disciples out to preach the same gospel Matt 10 et al

and this was BEFORE He told them anything about his death and sacrifice. Matt 16: 20 - 28

Paul continued preaching this same gospel Acts 28: 30 - 31

The full gospel is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and it includes the wonderful news that Christ died for our sins and is returning to rule his kingdom with his saints.

Waimahia

[st. Worm]

Actually waimahia, they were sent out in those passages you name to say preach the Kingdom of heaven is near. That was good news but not the gospel in its completeness. The good news for us is thatthe Kingdom is here. Christ has gone to the cross and taken the penalty for our sins. As Paul says the cross IS our theology.

[Waimahia]

Actually waimahia, they were sent out in those passages you name to say preach the Kingdom of heaven is near. That was good news but not the gospel in its completeness. The good news for us is thatthe Kingdom is here. Christ has gone to the cross and taken the penalty for our sins. As Paul says the cross IS our theology.

If you will kindly actually read the whole of Matt 10: 5 - 42 you will see that Christ told them to preach MUCH MORE than just that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. It included that we had to confess Christ before men and losing our life for His sake.

The total message Christ preached was the Gospel of the Kingdom of God (compare Mark 1: 14 - 15 & Matt 10: 7). Christ sent his disciples to preach the SAME GOSPEL he preached. And He did this before He told them that He would die for our sins.

Are you intentionally blind to the fact that Christ's sacrifice and the reconciliation that can be obtained through it is, nevertheless, only part (A MAJOR PART. YES) of the gospel He preached in His sojourn and that he later sent His disciples to preach to the whole world? Why try to dispute about what is breathtakingly obvious?

The full gospel is not encompassed only within the message about Christ's death and reconciliation possible through it. We are agreed on that, aren't we?

Waimahia