Deserving Eternal Torture/Torment

[Pancho]

I believe hell is death eternal... why else is the lake of fire the second death?

Did the first death eliminate consciousness? No. Then why do we assume the second death will? We can't, unless we read into it what we wish to see there.

In Christ,

Eric

I understand your point... but the fact remains that eternal life is a gift from God!!! It is not a right we are born with ... I have not read nor heard it taught that man was created with an eternal soul. So, if we agree that eternal life is God's gift then it is easy to understand that hell is destruction. Obviously if life is not eternal it must come to an end i.e. the destructive fires of hell... what did Jesus say... do not fear man but fear God who can destroy both the body and soul in hell!!!

As for the first death eliminating consciousness... yes it does. Why do you think it is likened to sleep?

but these issues aren't salvation issues.. they are merely theological... sometimes we waste too much time nit picking these theological points which cause division among us... the people outside of God's Kingdom are the immoral, the thieves, adulteres, fornicators... not people with different theology!

I don't wish to labour the point but if it's not a salvation issue lets just agree to disagree... whilst praying our loved ones and ourselves avoid the fires of hell... whether they're eternal or not!

Gods peace to you all

YBIC Elswado Pancho

[SDAinFLA]

While a parable is not a true story, it was given to show the reality of hell

I don't believe this parable of Lazarus and the rich man was given to show the reality of hell. This whole chapter of Luke 16 is about stewardship. We as Christians have to understand that to whom much is given, much is also required. (Luke 12:48)

When Malachi says - "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." (Mal 4:1). I don't see anything regarding a continual burning...if they shall be burnt up and left neither root or branch.

Have you considered what the Bible says happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7

I have yet to see a time in the Bible when the expression eternal fire...burn forever...etc. is used, that it is literal.

Unless...we believe that Sodom still is secretly burning...

[Copper Scroll]

I understand why you do not wish to believe God would send someone to burn forever. That is not a pleasant thought, but just because something is not pleasant doesn't mean it is not true.

So right (the reason why I ask for scriptural support in the OP). You are also right in that the thought that anyone should be tortured forever is not a pleasant thought. I feel that if I do get to heaven, the thought of others suffering eternally might prevent me from enjoying the eternal bliss.

God's ways are not as man's ways. They are higher. That is the problem with so many in the church world today. They seek out teachers having itching ears to ease their guilty consciences.

I agree.

There are many teaching that God is love, but refuse to preach the other side of the coin, that he is also a God of judgement.

You're right. The teaching that God is love, I think, misleads a lot of people (if this doctrinal notion of eternal torture is true). Somewhere else on this forum I read that most people who claim to be Christians actually reject a lot of features of most Christian theologies. These casual, "lay" Christians take the notion that God is love and form many assumptions based on it that you and other posters here have invalidated (with scriptural support). Do you think it would be more helpful for churches to stop preaching that God is love and that God is just? (The justice issue appears below.)

While these messages may make us feel better now, they will be worthless in the next life. Ignorance will not save us. To point to a preacher and say it is his fault I failed to live a sanctified lifestyle won't cut it. I can just see myself one day at the judgement of Christ explaining how that Copper Scroll told me that he was a God of love and so my sins shouldn't send me to hell. He will still say depart from me.

According to our concept of justice, I would think that any system set up so that I as an individual could so easily lead others to eternal torture is unjust. But as you indicated, our concept of justice is not necessarily God's. If the doctrine of eternal torment is true, we might as well abandon the teaching that God is just--because it is misleading.

Concerning the arguments you make in this post, they are all based on how you feel, and not scripture. That has been the problem with most of the things you have written.

First, most of the things I have written on this thread have been questions--not arguments. In the OP, I specifically request scriptural support for those who sought to answer my original question.

Second, if you re-read you'll see that the argument I do present in the post you quote does not really call for scriptural support. The argument is that people who are generally unintiated to Christian theology would be misled by the teachings that "God is love" and "God is just". I am not arguing that God is not loving or is not just. I'm just saying that people generally take these ideas from the church and run with them. If God is love and is just, they assume, I can get into heaven if I just try to lead a decent life and have good intentions. Surely a loving and just God, they assume, would not send me to be tortured eternally if I try by darndest to be a good person. Perhaps it is the fault of our culture that people would draw these assumptions based on the idea that God is love and is just. But just as preachers tailor their sermons to their audiences, we must be cognizant of where people are at. People are at a place where they might draw the wrong assumptions based on the teachings that God is love and is just. I don't think this sort of argument calls for scriptural support.

[Copper Scroll]

Concerning the scripture in Malachi that you mentioned, I can just as well argue that this is merely figurative, and that it doesn't really mean that the soul will be burned up in the sense in which you mean it. This argument can go both ways. I would imagine that using it, I can pretty well discredit most any scriptural argument you have for believing in the annihalation of the wicked. Going down that road, the best you can do is claim neither side can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and we will wind up in a stale mate.

Seeing as how they both cannot be literally true (or it's unlikely that they are both literally true) and they both must be taken for "truth", I would assume that they are both figurative/symbolic... and the literal character of hell is unclear.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[Copper Scroll]

The term " for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (see also Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.)

Thank you for your response. This part is fascinating.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[CarolineS]

2thepoint,

Please comment on these verses:

"The wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23

"Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:15

"God.. gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,...John 3:16

"Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthes 10:28

And also this verse:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20

So what does "death, perish, destroy, die" mean in the above? Is there some meaning I am missing?

Also please explain your understanding of the first death and the second death.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Carloine S;

People do not go to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28,29

"David...is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29,34.

"If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12

The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

<Matthew 25:46>

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word used in the verse is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

I believe you just made two statements that are contradictory? How do you jibe this with your soul sleep belief?

So there is a great General Ressurection, right?

Then the dead sleep on in punishment forever? Or are annihilated?

The only way to bring this around is to say that there is one punishment at the General Ressurection of the dead that you postulate. That this punishment is annihilation not soul sleep. Not sleeping on forever. However and excuse me now cause now my brain begins to hurt.

The Bible clearly states that it is appointed once for man to die and then the Judgment.

Heb

Edited February 13, 2006 by Dr. Luke

[Copper Scroll]

We all inherited mortality, meaning physical death, from Adam. But there is no scriptural support for inherited spiritual qualities, good or bad. The spirit comes from God, not man. We are all "appointed once to die, and then face judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but we are not appointed for heaven or hell; that is based on our faith or lack of it in Jesus' payment for all sin. Look also at Romans 5:12, where we see that all die because all sin, and then verse 14 which adds that "death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way as Adam". Sin's curse causes even the physical death of the innocent (children, the mentally incompetent). But Jesus paid for it all, and will someday do away with mortality.

Your post is well argued. You seem to provide sound scriptural support for every claim--except perhaps the one in bold above. What scriptures speak this in terms that cannot be taken any other way? Also, if Jesus paid for our sins with his own physical death, why do we continue to die physically? (There's probably something very simple I'm overlooking.)

As for the other verses, notice the context of each. James wrote about the fact that God is not responsible for our sin, and his statement about death does not contradict what Paul said. And in John 3:16 Jesus adds the phrase "but have eternal life", which tells us he is in this instance talking about the spirit which lives forever. I'm fairly sure your point here is that if the saved do not die spiritually, then the lost must die spiritually. But remember the meaning of death? Separation. At physical death our spirit is separated from our body. At spiritual death our spirit is separated from God. And just as physical death does not mean the body disappears, spiritual death does not mean the spirit ceases to exist either. Death, whether "first" or "second", never means ceasing to exist.

This makes sense. The physical body stops functioning and erodes after physical death; it does not just cease. It is continually destroyed forever. Is your argument that the same happens to the spirit in hell? I can imagine a consciousness (if your claim is that the spirit is the seat of consciousness--or vice versa) ceasing to function normally and unraveling over an extended period of time--like we imagine happens to someone who descends into psychosis. To my mind, though, this is not really torture. It sounds like madness.

This brings to mind another post that argued that since God is the source of all "good things", eternal separation from God must mean eternal torture. This argument bothered me a little because it implies that anything that feels "good" is "good" in a Godly sense. Torture means pain. Pain is the opposite of pleasure. That argument implies an equation between pain and "bad" and another equation between pleasure and "good". This, to me, is called hedonism. Any thoughts (anyone)? Also, if we have been separated from our physical bodies, how can we experience pleasure or pain (torture) at all?

Edited February 13, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[SDAinFLA]

Hey Dr. Luke...is that you discussing soul sleep????

What I found out is that it is almost impossible to discuss Eternal Torment without touching the state of the dead...but you're the boss...so

Hey guys, I was conversing with someone prior to this but I cannot recall if it was 2thpoint, or Dr. Luke or Butero...but can I get your take on this?

When Malachi says - "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." (Mal 4:1). I don't see anything regarding a continual burning...if they shall be burnt up and left neither root or branch.

Have you considered what the Bible says happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7

I have yet to see a time in the Bible when the expression eternal fire...burn forever...etc. is used, that it is literal.

Unless...we believe that Sodom still is secretly burning...

Thanks

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

SDA,

What I was trying to ascertain was how an individual could make two mutually contradictory statements in Light of the Written Word of God. Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept.

As far as the scripture in Jude?

I think you must take it in context and survey the surrounding Scriptures.

Jude